/v/ - Video Games

How do you pronounce OELVNs?

>>14700181

I just spell it out

O-E-L-V-N

No.

I just finished Everlasting Summer. It was pretty good for a Russian VN. In still don't understand the plot though.

>we need to talk about OELVNs

No. Almost every VN that ends up being made outside nipland inevitably ends up complete shit save for the few exceptions where it ends up only somewhat shit. This is all there is to it.

>>14700242

>No. Almost every VN that ends up being made outside nipland inevitably ends up complete shit save for the few exceptions where it ends up only somewhat shit. This is all there is to it.

Well if that's the case then it's a problem! As I was saying in the OP the west is more than capable of doing it. We need to encourage the development of it as a medium.

What about the german VN "Bernd und das Rätsel um Unteralterbach"?

God of War just launched on the PS4.

The girls aren't all that special, but the story is pretty good for a VN.

>>14700765

Good meme Anon.

>>14700769

I actually would like some recomendations, but I got nothing to contribute to thread besides bumping it so I thought I'd crack a joke and atleast make someone smile.

>>14700182

>>14700181

I pronounce it like "oil beans"

Western visual novels are jusy tranny bait

Only enjoyable western VNs I've read were the ones made by imageboard users: KS, Dandy Girl (which isn't original but a good VN nonetheless), and Unteralterbach. Anon's Nice Day isn't good, but was fun enough for a choose your own adventure thread turned short visual novel, so I'll give it an honorable mention for being the first.

I want to write a VN, but I can't into the art. None of my dreams will ever be realized.

I wish I had a semi-talented college room-mate to handle all the art and business aspects of the project while I just wrote and played video games all day. That would be great.

>>14701386

>I wish I could just not do anything and make money

Your dream can be realized as long as you're reasonable. Learn to drawfag and also learn to write, since you're probably not as good as you think.

Well now that you mention it I really don't remember any English VNs that were any good.

>>14700181

L-O-V-E

go to the VN general

VN's are for fags but KS music still hits me

>>14701709

>VN

>any sort of motion or perspective

>>14700181

I'll vote you pronounce it ovens, the E and L are silent.

what's the difference between oergghs and dating sims? why not just say dating sim?

>>14702959

VNs and dating sims are not the same thing, and OELVN refers only to VNs that were originally written in English. The three terms have different meanings.

Read real vns you faggots.

The west doesn't make visual novels because we can actually read our language, since it isn't based on memorizing a bajillion hieroglyphics. Read a book nigger.

>>14703166

I forgot that electronic picture books can only be created by the glorious Nipponese. Sorry.

>>14701528

I don't think there are any. Everlasting Summer and Unteralterbach are good, but they are originally Russian and German.

>>14700181

Ooh lel Vee N's

bump because I wanna see more form this thread

bump

What was the one about a company sending two people to fulfill an old man's dream of going into space? Involved dream manipulation or some such.

>>14701709

Just do pixelshit or use any other shortcut. It's art in the current year

>>14713619

Wasn't that a shitty RPGMaker game?

>>14713657

Might've been, I just remember the soundtrack being decent.

>>14713619

To the Moon.

>>14715328

Why use that as an example of good pixelart?

It looks like pixel vomit.

Could have used Metal Slug's art.

>>14715328

Please explain how Undertale is pixelshit without using a strawman argument

>>14715343

It's very inconsistent. Compare some of the background sprites and their complexity to a character sprite or another background sprite, it's almost as if they're from a different game. Some trees will look very nice, but then you look at the ground and it's just a solid repeating color. Certain characters will have detailed and thorough animations while some are just static sprites with 1-2 frames of animation in total.

The lighting does not match up with the pixel art visual style. It's smooth and rendered in real time, making it look very out of place.

Rotations are done in this odd, "scale-everything-2x-then-rotate-each-2x2-pixel" sort of manner. It's hard to describe, but it's almost like a bad recreation of the SNES MODE7 rotation. This is especially prevalent in the battle scenes (also, the fact they're in a monotone art style does not help the consistency)

The color pallet is very limited and poorly chosen. Combined with the lack of detail on a lot of the sprites and it looks very amateurish.

tl;dr - baby's first pixel art

>>14701709

>>14716950

To be fair, a VN isn't particularly costly to make. If you're serious about making one, as long as you can write it and learn basic Ren'py programming (and believe me you don't have to be a programmer at all) you can construct everything except the character portraits and backgrounds, and when the time comes save up the money to pay someone to make it. KS had like 1 character artist and she drew all the character portraits and all the backgrounds are just filtered photographs.

>>14715383

I did end up liking Undertale a lot, and I actually was initially sold on it by /v/ shilling for it. By the time I finished it I came back here and the opinion had done a complete 180 just because people /v/ doesn't like to associate with also liked the game.

>>14717260

DOn't feel bad Anon. Undertale isn't a bad game, and while it might not be my favorite game I can respect people who like it. Yume Nikki and Earthbound are 2 of my favorite games of all time so I see where people are coming from. Just ignore the LARPers and enjoy video games. I'm only shitting on it's art because there's lots of things objectively wrong with it.

>>14715328

Those both look like shit.

>>14700181

Oh, elven.

>>14717450

To the Moon looks like shit not because it necessarily has bad art, but because said art is the stock art that comes with RPGMaker with some rather obvious original additions that usually clash with the stock art. That, and it uses shitty bloom on everything so it's actually not pixel art anymore.

>>14715383

>Yeah, and you could do better, right?

I can't believe people are still using this shit argument in current year+17.

>>14717892

git gud at ripping their shit

>>14717892

http://www.downloadtwittervideo.com/

Probably not even the best way, but you can get gifs and videos off of it.

>>14717892

That's why you have the printscreen button. :^)

umatrix and ublock origin are your friends.

>>14717892

what

>>14715328

Undertale is unironically a better game than that sloppy tearjerker "game", and are you sure To The Moon isn't using purchased assets?

>>14700167

op is fag

There are no good (((western))) VNs fampai.

>>14729079

>>>/out/

>>14721434

Undermeme is shit.

>>14736053

>Undermeme is shit.

I remember when /v/ liked Undertale then it got popular and the contrarian attitude set in.

>>14717260

Undertale is essentially an effective game at what it sets out to do I don't regret playing it and had a good time. The problem has always been the media coverage and fanbase that surrounded it because they helped to color the game in the worst possible light as a meme title (Which I don't necessarily disagree with).

>>14700167

I know there is a large database on the ren'py website for games made in that engine. My question would be; How many make the cut as "noteable" titles from there and are there any non-ren'py titles that are worth talking about as well?

I don't play many VNs, and I'm not a proponent that I'd like a visual novel more if it came from my native language. But I am interestind in how the image of western visual novels can improve as the Japs have a much longer history with this so it's easier to pull out quality titles or seminal titles despite the mountains of garbage surrounding them.

>>14744642

Nice revisionism faggot.

>>14701709

I've been working on a VN on and off for a couple of years. I tried to keep it fairly small and I can't do anything creative visual or audio wise. Getting commissions for all the assets is going to end up costing me 400-500 dollars. I'm lucky that I have some money to throw around, but if you have spare spending money consider that it's across several different people paying them half at a time. Although, you could probably get that much lower if your okay with lower quality art and/or tracking down people who would work for free. I wanted to pay artists and pay them reasonably though, so I decided to invest in it knowing that I probably won't even break even.

I guess my goal isn't to make money at least on this particular project. But, if you have a bunch of time and no money you could possibly find people who are willing to work for free. I think some people still fall for the scam of revenue share as well. You'll probably get what you pay for, but if you just need something passable it's doable.

>>14715328

The right one looks like an RPGmaker game which will lead people to instantly dismiss it.

>>14744642

Undershit has always been derided here. The only exception are cuckchan refugees such as yourself.

>>14751455

>>14755000

go back.

>>14755047

Make me then.

>>14761633

Could be both tbh.

>>14766472

Not an argument. Fuck off with your newfag bullshit. I don't even like Undertale and I can tall you that /v/ blew Undertale's cock and balls like a bug chaser.

>>14766472

>I have no argument and I must shitpost

Actually on topic, how do games by Christine Love rank? I've only played Digital: A love story but I know that she has another game that was making some small waves a few years ago. I think it was called Hate or something like that.

>>14768722

Well technically Visual novels are derived from Western adventure games like King's Quest but because of the foundation in Japanese culture they draw upon japanese story conventions, colloquially referred to as anime/manga culture, to inform their content.

The thing that is distinctly japanese about VN's is the dating sim aspect but outside of that nothing VN's do is foreign to western storytelling and as you note, text adventure games and graphical adventure games exist and predate that genre. So there isn't some weird "niche of a niche" magnification going on. english visual novels are simply a side-by-side partner to Japanese visual novels which are themselves an offshoot of adventure games which the West has seen before in spades.

That being said it's not that there aren't a plethora of english visual novels to choose from, but there isn't a lot of documentation as to which ones are worth actually pursuing and the nature of these discussions usually derides the ones that do get pushed forward as they are called inferior to Japanese VNs, or are shit on because they got popular and we know how contrarian attitudes work. English Visual Novels get a bum deal.

>>14769388

>Who said I was talking only about storytelling?

You didn't specify what you were insinuating so I ran with what I thought was most logical to your argument.

>But if you don't do this as long as the game is within proximity of the genre it will be obviously and painfully inferior.

This implies that dating sims are integral to Visual novels which isn't true. At the end of the day the origin of Visual novels is adventure games, this is a fact and you should look into developer history for things like the Portopia series which is the father of Japanese Visual Novels. Dating is just another expression of what VN's can do along side incorporating RPG elements and gameplay styles. Or just being outright kinetic novels. So nothing about the structure of VNs requires Japan it's just you prefer Japanese visual novels because of their longer history.

>First, if EVN is a standalone side-by-side equal partner then where are said VNs that don't try to be that one sibling?

What does this mean? What do you mean by that last part.

>Second, you are probably confusing focused on storytelling games of undetermined genre with OEVNQQIP2SAAs for the sake of an argument.

What does this mean too?

>contradiction and by returning to my first point

No it's not a contradiction. You implied that part of the problem with EVNs were that they were a derivative from a derivative. But instead both are derived from the same origin point, and it's just that some western devs are inspired by eastern Visual Novels but not universally. But there are a lot of EVNs and I can just look at the renpy database to get a small look into how deep this well actually goes with just that one engine as a starting point. There are other visual novels out there too but like I said there isn't a lot of documentation as to where to start and what is good

>Please name me examples that you could provide solid arguments for

Ok, has anyone ever made a recommendation list for exclusively english visual novels? That is what I mean by "lack of documentation on EVNs". You're second point is proven by the OP and maybe one other post in this thread. Games like Katawa Shoujo and DDLC are shit on even though they are solid games. Why are they considered inferior if not because they "are just copying other VNs?"

>If OELVNs were a thing (and by that I mean it was a well established genre), well, firstly, I wouldn't forget that there is an L in that acronym

This is the first time I've seen that acronym so I don't particularly think it's a problem if the word is new and people are shaky on it. People still contest the term metroidvania as a genre descriptor so this is to be expected.

I don't know what else you are trying to get me to prove though. You want me to list games but I'm not clear on why or to what end. My point is simple. English Visual Novels have been around for some time, but it's not a category that is as well known as japanese visual novels. Part of this is explained by the history of Japanese visual novels being far more popular and represented in both the gaming medium and enthusiasts of the genre. Saying that English visual novels are derivative of Japanese visual novels is true to some degree as inspiration is definitely drawn from there. But to say that EVNs are weaker because they don't have things that you assume are japanese exclusive is factually incorrect.

>>14769705

>No, what I was implying is that character focused routes (including plot building) and route system in general is pretty much an integral part of VN genre, basically a default option.

Character focused story based games aren't unique to Japan. This is my point. Mechanically speaking the things that make visual novels, visual novels are largely modular but the "base" idea of a visual novel only has one marker that really is more popular in japan than anywhere else I can observe which is the idea of a dating simulator.

>Look, the fact that protoVNs derived from adventure games doesn't change the fact that current year VNs are also a derivative of anime/manga and ranobe.

I don't deny this but aesthetics aren't the same as mechanics. And aesthetics don't define a genre of game, gameplay does. If you define visual novels by how they look then you also start to discount titles like Hotel Dusk and it's sequel for being visual novels/adventure games set in the west with american characters and realistic proportions instead of the usual anime proportions.

>ou also didn't make an argumentative connection between your protoVN adventure argument and EVN being a standalone, non derivative from VNs entity.

There is nothing to say. The point is that visual novels came from a gameplay type rather than anime/manga iconography. That stuff is secondary to the mechanical influences of early adventure games onto the development of VNs.

>Ironically, the only concrete examples that you've provided are in my favor. Krapawa shitjou - inferior "dating sim" VN and VNmeta VN. Don't stop reading here to reply on this particular point, it's not important discussing quality of said VNs unless you can make a strong case for them being distinct enough for them needing another lable, OELVN to be exact.

You ask me not to focus on this point but how is this in your favor? How is that fair? And I assume you wrote this then read my second post but I am dropping the need to use EOLVN as a descriptor since it's arbitrary and fragments an already niche genre unnecessarily. There are just visual novels and some happen to be made in the west as opposed to the east. My current interest in documenting and discussing english-made visual novels is to better understand what is actually being made in my culture since I don't hear much about them outside of singular titles every blue moon.

What specifically makes K

>EVNs are weaker, because they try to manage and account for VN standards that are just too immense for a non jap developer to grasp and replicate faithfully.

Now you need to explain this because what about Choose your own adventure novels is something westerner's wouldn't get? I think the real confusion is you thinking that anime/manga is what defines visual novels. Which I assert is the wrong perspective to take here. And OP wanted to find more english original visual novels. Whether I call it OELVNs or EVN we mean the same thing that's just a term I'm not familiar with.

>What I'm saying is, when "EVN" is original it's probably nowhere close to the VN concept and is more of an x, where x can be an adventure game, a dating sim, a text adventure, an rpgmaker proof of concept etc, anything but EVN.

There are japanese visual novels that are straight up princess simulators or strategy RPG's, I doubt that there is anything that would discount an EVN from being called a visual novel more than it would also discount a japanese-made visual novel.

> Examples that would strictly fall into EVN category

Katawa Shoujo is a visual novel. DDLC is a visual novel. Cupid is a visual novel and a very decent example of a dating sim that uses western aesthetics for it's presentation and story. Digital a Love story is a visual novel (and very reminiscent of the Text adventure game A mind forever voyaging/wandering). It's sister Analogue along with KW and DDLC are ones that definitely incorporate japanese aesthetics to their presentation but are still EVN's by definition here.

These are all visual novels and like I am saying, whether eastern or western and regardless of some inspirations that affect aesthetics, they are all the same and one is not inferior to the other just because of a difference in region of origin. Now you need to tell me why you think these titles are inferior and really explain what you mean about non-jap developers not understanding event flags and CYOA story telling?

>>14769842

I'll reply tomorrow since it's getting late here.

Since I forgot to bring it up in my image board originating VN recommendations before, if you liked Umineko, read Witches & Woodlands. It might not be one of ours, but it's good regardless.

>>14769705

No, it's not. 07th Expansion's works were popular enough to receive fan games, anime, manga, light novels, and official console ports while having no choices/routes whatsoever. The problem with non-Japanese visual novels is the writing is often worse than even your average shitty nukige. This is much more prominent than in Japanese visual novels because there is a language barrier. We are not exposed to the amount of garbage that nips are. If we made VNs that got translated to Jap, I'm sure there would be a minority of westaboos over there lauding OELVNs as superior to Japanese shovelware. There's also the fact that most OELVNs are made my tumblr, and as such the art and characters range from tumblr nose with diversity to ugly and badly drawn furries OC donut steel. Western VNs are made by weebs too, so the setting and art style are mostly poor knockoffs of Japanese. If they embraced their own culture (and no SJW shit), it might work out better but then nobody would read it anyway. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I still think people should try, but don't blame people for not wanting to dig for gems in a mountain of shit.

>>14770108

It's a term that has been used for quite a while, and I see no problem rolling with it.

>>14770120

So? "Character action game" has as well, and it's a terrible descriptor of games like DMC and bayonetta.

>>14769948

>The problem with non-Japanese visual novels is the writing is often worse than even your average shitty nukige.

You hit the nail on the head. No OELVN holds up to even a halfway decent Japanese h-game. Not even Musumake, one of Illusion's worst games, was so poorly written as to tell rather than show what was happening.

>>14769874

Sure, I'm enjoying this discussion.

>>14770108

As far as the current discussion is concerned. I'm advocating treating OELVN as just a regional descriptor and not a standalone genre. Trying to make a meaningful difference mechanically between japanese visual novels and western visual novels is futile since they are both doing the same things.

>>14715383

>it feels like it was made by an artist over the course of 5 different degrees of skill.

If I remember correctly the game changed artists several times.

>>14770493

>As far as the current discussion is concerned. I'm advocating treating OELVN as just a regional descriptor and not a standalone genre. Trying to make a meaningful difference mechanically between japanese visual novels and western visual novels is futile since they are both doing the same things.

Very much this. I made the thread and specified OELVNs so that we could talk about the niche that it is, and how it needs to improve.

>>14768722

Uncommon Time with hacks is the best OELVN. It even has multiple routes and endings.

>>14771276

>I think it's a problem when the writer doesn't have the chops to do it well.

I agree. I just don't think a lot of these OELVN writers are the ones. It's something I've struggled with myself, writing what I know.

>>14771460

>I just don't think a lot of these OELVN writers are the ones.

Oh yeah, that's still true from what I can observe. While it's a bit of an exaggeration, there is a substantial number of these english VN's written by people who fit into the tumblr bracket like you said. People too young or inexperienced and immediately trying to copy a VN they played or heard about. People who can't separate their beliefs or agenda's from their writing and they wind up creating something that betrays the subject matter they are trying to tackle. And People who are just bad writers that have the drive to complete a project like this. I know people on tumblr encourage content creators to keep making their shitty fics and stuff because the idea is that eventually they will get better, I just don't know if these people continue to make visual novels after their first, and if they do if they actually improve.

>>14771552

While the Hotel Dusk series got me into the idea of Visual Novels I was largely still a stranger until I played KS. It convinced me that the genre was worth looking into and I have fond memories of the game. Rin is indeed one of the better routes in the game.

>the body is too long

>>14769842

This paragraph is dedicated entirely to repeating my previous points.

>and really explain what you mean about non-jap developers not understanding event flags and CYOA story telling

I've already explained a dozen of times, because they are imitating, and ideals they are trying to replicate aren't even the best there is.

Replicating storytelling antics, visual style, character types, "gameplay" features etc etc, requires effort that ultimately takes away from the originality, and also takes away from the quality due to culture barriers that hamper developers and writers ability from replicating the genre to any comparatively equal degree. Also see this >>14769948

For example, imagine if you were to dedicate yourself to creating your own Super Mario bros, without understanding design theory behind decisions in it. You would end up with an inferior SMB.

If you were to excel at your imitation however, then you already be lagging behind from what platformer genre has to offer (due to you picking a not up to date standard of a platformer).

If you were to make liberal decisions with SMB mechanics, like taking away block breaking, koopas, hammer bros etc, it wouldn't even be SMB at that point and would offer for a different identification than an EVN usual 2d platformer (3d adventure, puzzle platformer, metroidvania etc).

>Now you need to explain this because what about Choose your own adventure novels is something westerner's wouldn't get?

They are not replicating CYOA games. Again see >>14769948

>I think the real confusion is you thinking that anime/manga is what defines visual novels.

Read last sentence of the first pharagraph, then read again my previous messages from which you drew this conclusion. If you still don't get it I'll spill it for you on a plate.

Anime/manga - visual, audio and production philosophy aspect, etc;

ranobe/manga - storytelling structure, cliches, scene exposition, literature genre leanings, etc;

ProtoVNs/Date sims/VNs themselves - flag and route systems, character based routing, different endings and events in general, basic engine functions and methods of visual representation, etc.

>Character focused story based games aren't unique to Japan.

Give me mediums that build routes, and build their entire route systems around particular characters, to the point where characters themselves are pretty much the main reason why said routes exist.

>>14769948

I'm assuming you are replying to a notion that VNs inherited date sim aspects into their core.

>07th Expansion's works were popular enough to receive fan games, anime, manga, light novels, and official console ports while having no choices/routes whatsoever.

Did you know that they position their works to be of different genre or at least a sub genre? Sound novels I believe? Laughable I know, especially taking into account that they don't voice their novels.

Either way, if it wasn't for that, they would be just kinetic novels instead.

>>14771552

They are all shit.

>>14773213

Actually, I've heard that is because the term visual novel is/was reserved in Japan. Games cannot (or could not, if it has changed since) advertise as visual novels. This lead to other terms being used for the games. Trademarks are a pain in the ass, aren't they? Either way, the broad genre is typically just adventure game (ADV) for those with non-simulation and non-RPG mechanics, or novelgame (NVL) for those that we would describe as full visual novels with no gameplay.

I would say the novel genre really just consists of a software that the player's only option is to save, load, backlog, advance the narrative (which is the only influence you have over the graphical display of the game) either through advancing the text or making a choice/clicking on something. The graphics can include characters, but do not have to. The graphics are often 2d but do not have to be. There may not be choices. There may not be a text box, just text over the shaded screen. It may not be a good VN, but it is still a VN, just as a badly written VN is still a VN.

>>14773390

>Either way, if it wasn't for that, they would be just kinetic novels instead.

>>14773207

I love how /v/ acts like it fucking hates Uncommon Time but talks about it like a favorite TV show.

>>14773421

Yeah, the demo you retard.

>>14773439

post proofs /v/ liked the demo, then

>>14773406

Just because the VN is kinetic, that does not make it "not a VN." That's like saying a point-and-click adventure game and a top-down adventure game aren't both adventure games. Even with that example, the difference in a VN that is or isn't linear is much less than the difference in an adventure game that displays rooms as a grid a la the original Adventure, or one that displays rooms from the viewpoint of a person standing in the room.

Here's an interesting thought experiment, I guess: if a text adventure did not parse text and instead gave you branching choices with no adventure game mechanics, would it be a visual novel? In the absence of gameplay, it would not be a text adventure anymore. There would only be text, like a CYOA book. I posit that it would be a novel game, despite the lack of visuals associated with a "visual novel." Now, if you were to remove the choices, and only advance the text upon pressing enter, I still believe it would be a novel game. The important part is it is an interactive video (as in displayed on a screen, not as in containing graphics) program presenting you with a novel, one that is not necessarily a CYOA book like in the first case. Of course, I would be hesitant to call it a game at this point.

>>14773446

Why the fuck should I? I fucking hate Undertale, why the fuck would I want to post proof?

>>14773581

Exactly. Everyone has always hated it. There are some astro-turfing shills here who are trying to revise /v/'s history. Such as:

>>14715383

>>14717260

>>14744642

>>14767179

>>14773602

People liked the demo, I'm not going to post proof though, you can go kill yourself though if faggots liking something shit because it had an ounce of promise of not being communist garbage bothers you so much.

>>14773602

Sign me up under the shill list, because you are an idiot.

>>14773596

We'll have to agree to disagree. If you can walk around, I would not call it a VN, KN, novel game, or whatever your autism would use. Just because it has no gameplay beyond walking and the bare minimum of interaction with the environment, that does not make it a VN. I think the term walking simulator, while a meme and not the best descriptor one could come up with, is an appropriate substitute.

>>14773207

>So you would say that your earlier statement was entirely wrong?

If you mean the whole side-by-side thing. No. In my post >>14770493 I state what I mean. EVN or whatever term is just a regional descriptor to me at this point as mechanically there is nothing different about them to warrant a separate genre or declare EVN's as derivative.

>I wouldn't call them visual novels then

Unfortunately the community disagrees as even the idea of Kinetic novels go against the original design specs of Visual novels being choice driven games yet are accepted. Granted Kinetic novels are a sub-category of VN but it's still under that banner. There is a point where gameplay becomes too involved and the presentation of dialogue resembling visual novels doesn't make it one. But there is definitely a broader definition of what makes a VN that is at play here.

>tot he point where it may be reliant on nip culture

This really isn't backed up by your argument then because you haven't explained WHY visual novels are so reliant on nip culture for anything more than aesthetics. I get what you are trying to say given the genre's history in japanese media.

>It's an inferior pick your girl type of VN

This is pretty wrong on a lot of levels. Routes are fairly developed as they make up the majority of the game and the "intro" section is one short chapter to get you into the setting and present your choices. The central story of your characters heart condition is dealt with in a different way each route as different relationships change the way your condition would complicate this. Route's like Emi's make the biggest deal of it since she's an athlete, while routes like Rin have the least to do with it since her lifestyle is more sedentary. This means that not only are you working around the disability of the girl in each route, but it puts your character on even footing as someone who is also learning to work with their condition. So saying that you the player or the Main character are not involved is also not true

Scale of story is also not something I think is a valid complaint when evaluating a story as then you're only saying that visual novels that are about world ending stuff. And this also relies on just comparing stories instead of evaluating it on it's own merits. Leaving the stories that tell more down to earth narratives by the wayside. And endings are present for each girl as there are 3 for each, a good, neutral, and best.

Being basic isn't bad both on an introductory level for the genre, nor on a narrative level for the story. Complexity doesn't make something better just because it's complex.

>Do I need to explain why something that so heavily depends on VN context to exist has a weaker base?

Yes, because games like Kimi to Kanojo to Kanojo no Koi (spoilers in the video I linked) have received praise (and scorn) for doing the exact same thing and playing with the tropes of visual novels from the meta perspective. Being Meta isn't what makes something bad bad. Execution makes things bad

>t's an OS mock up genre

There's an entire tag for that on the VNDB. It's something that is accepted as it's just an interface to facilitate the same type of interaction.

>Exactly, that's why

I needed to address that because what you had to say about these games being bad will help me understand what it is you associate with visual novels in general. As well as me being able to pick your brain because I'm always curious why people don't like certain titles.

But here's the problem. Games can occupy multiple Genres and if you've played any of the two hotel dusk games you know it's primarily dialogue and choice trees with the adventure game portion making up a minority of gameplay. Taking into account what >>14773390 brings up it's possible that we're really just arguing about the divide between ADV type visual novels and NVL types in this area. But then trying to say that Gone Home could also be considered a VN is kind of ridiculous as we can all see from just a presentation standpoint they aren't in the same genre.

>e already explained a dozen of times, because they are imitating

This is really the major point we disagree on. I don't attribute japanese tropes as necessary to classify something as a visual novel. I recognize their influence but I feel you are then making the assumption that A) Every EVN that uses japanese tropes does it bad. B) Deviating from these tropes automatically makes a VN inferior and C) Because a non-japanese creator is working on a title they fundamentally fail to understand how to implement the mechanics that define a visual novel since you attribute japanese culture as one of these components.

The real problem as I see it here is the same as what was agreed upon here; >>14771460 anyone can write a story that uses another cultures stuff, but we're more able to see the bad examples in our own language instead of the other way around because of the language barrier and how popularity and quality drags the good examples of Japanese Visual Novels forward. And the reasons for bad EVN's aren't that much different than what makes a bad visual novel in japan as shitty writers will make shitty games.

So to the point of this thread, we should be trying to find the Good English Visual Novels but for your part, the ones people might bring up are also failures which leaves us nowhere.

>They are not replicating CYOA games

Not every EVN is ripping off Umeineko or making a kinetic novel. That's one facet of the genre itself.

>Give me mediums that build routes

Adventure games, the thing that VN's were built out of. As well as Western RPG's to an extent.

<Maniac Mansion - Adventure game - Lucas Studios

Game has you able to choose who travels with the MC and there are 5 endings based on who you brought. As well as unique dialogue and scenarios.

<Blade Runner

13 possible endings based on who you trust and who you decide to "retire" under suspicion of being a replicant. This game also has randomized patterns so who is a machine is different on subsequent playthroughs.

<Phantasmagoria 2

It's a shit game, but an FMV title that gives you options on who to trust and who to try and save which can lead to you getting a shitty romantic option that also hints to your later death.

<Alpha Protocol/KOTOR/Mass Effect 2

Before I start, I want to say that number of endings doesn't play a role on whether or not character routes and branching story paths makes a game a VN. Kinetic novels exist and they have singular endings. But for a lot of the 360/PS3 generation western games really took a renewed interest in Choice and Consequence based story-telling that had previously been king during the isometric era of western RPGs. Games like Alpha Protocol make it a primary mechanic to pick things like chosen enemy, side kick, and even handler and these choices affect more than just relationships as there are mechanical ramifications like what type of enemies will attack you and how they will act that change with these.

While not strictly the same type of routing of Visual novels which almost favors a tree structure at best, these games make who you want to pursue and who you choose to interact with major components of gameplay and have distinct paths through them. And dialogue presentation has also been closer to the shot-reverse shot format found in cinema, but it almost identical to the opposing faceoff format that most visual novels use to show two or more people talking.

>>14773421

When the demo came out it was pretty liked, but then the full game showed up and everything went to shit.

>>14776489

>>14773421

go look at the thread on /vg/ and the dates of the posts. inb4 muh shill /vg/ d&c.

>>14774949

>A) Every EVN that uses japanese tropes does it bad.

Does it worse, notice the difference.

>B) Deviating from these tropes automatically makes a VN inferior

It makes a different genre.

>C) Because a non-japanese creator is working on a title they fundamentally fail to understand how to implement the mechanics that define a visual novel since you attribute japanese culture as one of these components.

Because it's a non-japanese creator, he will dedicate way too much effort on replicating everything that is a VN leaving close to no room to be anything else.

>The real problem as I see it here is the same as what was agreed upon here; >>14771460 anyone can write a story that uses another cultures stuff, but

but >>14769948

>we should be trying to find the Good English Visual Novels

No, you should be trying to find good story driven interactive media of any genre, because by choosing VNs only you are handicapping yourself, then shooting yourself in the foot and then mixing pills with alchohol. You can still survive and maybe carry something of worth from that experience, but I think there are better ways of achieving your goals.

>give me mediums that build routes

>rpgs

Said characters are tied to some idea, concept or point that is separate from the character's personality. Unlike VNs where as you argue pointless character routes are acceptible.

>adventures and rpgs

Due to complexity and effore required there is barely any comparable to VN routing, if any. Usually just different events that trigger around the main storyline, where in VN routes ARE different story lines that cover events in the world from different perspectives.

Now, without context this would seem as me moving goalposts.

>>>>the fucking dating sim aspect, that you so easily dismiss, implies an enormous system of flags and routes backstage. Replicating all of that takes effort

>>>This implies that dating sims are integral to Visual novels which isn't true

>>No, what I was implying is that character focused routes (including plot building) and route system in general is pretty much an integral part of VN genre, basically a default option.

>Character focused story based games aren't unique to Japan.

What I was arguing for are specifics of the VN genre that VNs have inherited from dating sims (that inhereted it from the older games).

In their simplicity VNs marvel at utilizing routing for their needs in fact it's usually the main tool

>>It's uncommon for VNs to pick something else, and when they do, they usually stand out or bear a different name. For example game VNs or kinetic novels.

And the daiting sim part establishes in what direction VNs usually use that tool.

Also, for fuck's sake link to all posts when replying so it'd be possible to chain browse.

>>14776776

>link to all posts

"In all posts, to all posts that you are replying" to be exact.

>>14776775

>>>I wouldn't call them visual novels then

Yeah, but we're having a terminology discrepancy here because these games are called visual novels. You don't want to call them visual novels. But your definition of Visual Novel is also very restrictive even within the context of choice based text games.

>>This is pretty wrong on a lot of levels.

We've been having a good discussion, but throwing a meme graph out there isn't really disproving anything at all. The actual content of the routes, meaning the actual dialogue is what's devloped. I can't think of a single visual novel whether japanese made or english made that wouldn't amount to ticking values and checking to see if the player got a flag. Hell, even stories that get called convoluted like the Zero Escape series are piss simple when you look at the actual story trees but what's complicated is the path to understanding these routes by interpreting the actual story.

What was your point here?

>But shallowness of the experience definitely makes things worse.

So was that shallow? The routing isn't less sophisticated than your standard VN, the writing is competent at worst and engaging at best. It's not flawless but nothing is.

What is your metric here because I can't grasp what your golden standard for dating sim is. What is something you rate highly within the genre?

>since you were aiming so low.

I don't think having a story that doesn't require an in-game encyclopedia is aiming low.

>Was it just a few hours long?

Well the game forces you to play one story route. Then the second. During the second the entire game builds up to that moment and then further limits your options and even effects your save file based on that second route. What does that have to do with meta-aware games being bad? Is there a magical time limit that determines quality?

>can only occupy a single genre space

>then I take the most valuable for said purpose genre and then roundup

Ok, but this still means the game literally occupies multiple genres and you're just simplifing to see which one might be more prominent but you cannot use that single genre to accurately describe the game and must then pull back to the multiple descriptors to get the most accurate picture.

You posted a venn Diagram so I assume you are aware that the red shaded region occupies the space from all the other circles which would be my point about being in multiple genres. Especially since genres can also include things like aesthetics (Horror) not just mechanics which makes it harder to say which is more important since both mechanics and aesthetics would would be equal ratios.

>I don't care

Ok, that was a shitty argument from numbers or whatever the fallacy is called. I'll admit that.

>That's why OELVN or EVN is fucking god awful for searching for storybased interactive

Sometimes people just want to know what their own people are capable of creating. I get what OP was asking for at least.

>then it's fucking retarded from the get go because >>14769948

I know you really love that post but it's not an argument against what I'm saying because I'm advocating that even with shitty writers that make bad EVN's there are good ones and you're being incredibly picky, contrary, and biased in determining what constitutes a good Visual Novel. But, the thing that anon stated about nobody caring even if a creator did make something based on their own culture applies to you because from this whole conversation I've solidified that "Visual Novel == Japanese" as the main crux to your reason why nobody else can do it right. Even when there are visual novels that are created by the Japanese that use Western culture and tropes and receive positive reviews. The inverse will never be true for you because visual novels are perceived as an inherently japanese thing with no possibility for anyone else to do it "right" even when the mechanical structure only calls for having dialogue trees presented alongide images of the scenes and characters at it's core.

This is why we are going to keep talking in circles about things because your premise and mine can't reconcile on this major point. If were were talking about JRPG as a genre than you'd win this easily since it's inherit to the title that the game has to be japanese in origin. Visual Novel doesn't have the same caveat and it's easy to just look at both it's inspiration, and their mechanics to see that nothing uniquely japanese is baked into the design.

>>14776775

>notice the difference.

No because you assume every one does it worse because it's not made by a japanese person. Meaning nobody can just write a story about some bland harem protag with girls fawning over them or whatever flavor of story you want better than the japanese because that's an anime trope? I get there's a mountain of shit when it comes to people emulating the japanese tropes. But it's not like the japanese aren't guilty of this shit themselves (Modern Isekai is an amazing example of shitty derivative writing by hack writers) But it's not like nobody has done it well either but you don't acknowledge stuff like KS so I can't give you anything to change your mind.

>It makes a different genre.

I disagree because the gameplay of visual novels aren't dependent on japanese story tropes. We just have to agree to disagree because I'm not budging on this point.

>hat is a VN leaving close to no room to be anything else.

What does this mean? If someone sets out to make a dating sim what room is there for anything else but to be a dating sim? If someone sets out to make a kinetic novel, what room are they sacrificing here? If someone makes a murder/mystery VN how are they losing space emulating what here?

>but >>14769948

But >>14771276

Find the good writers, then you'll find the good visual novels. Culture doesn't matter, execution does. Executing a Visual Novel isn't something the japanese have a lock on.

>No, you should be trying to find good story driven interactive media of any genre,

The point of this thread is to try and identify the good english original language visual novels. Go make another thread if you just want to make a rec thread for good narrative games. I recommend interactive fiction and specifically spider & Web as a starting point. Solid story, good twist.

>Unlike VNs where as you argue pointless character routes are acceptible.

I don't recall making that argument.

>where in VN routes ARE different story lines that cover events in the world from different perspectives.

Go play Blade Runner right now and stop dismissing the examples I did bring up. But if you want a medium that does this, go to your local library and find the youth section. If you're lucky they should still have some CYOA books lying around and you can get the visual novel experience all you want and some even have pictures so you don't just call it a text-based adventure novel.

>And the daiting sim part establishes in what direction VNs usually use that tool.

This just means that decision trees are what is core to Visual Novels. Dating sims are just an expression of this idea with the narrative concept attached to stories about romance. You have the inheritance backwards and are arguing that the dating sim is what informed routing and not the other way around. If you are arguing this, what about dating sims changed the concept of routing? I need a timeline for this or something.

>>14776775

Did you make that second pic yourself teagan-anon? Because that's dedication.

>So much shitposting about Undermeme and other stupid shit

>Thread magically gets large walls of text

Bless you anons. This is the least shitty thread on /v/ right now.

>>14787432

Yeah it's pretty fucking great. I never cared for VNs myself but the helpful autism of anons actually arguing instead of just shitposting has got me lurking the dedicated VN thread now. It's also helped by the fact that the share thread is doing a little mini-project with VNs too.

<They are still at it

<now with flowcharts

wow, so when are you two announcing the kickstarter?

>>14783826

>Also, I'm not a "teagan-anon"

Don't know what this means really? I just made up a label.

>I didn't even play uncommon times

You didn't miss anything. We do an annual stream though so if you come back in august you can suffer with the rest of us.

>It's just another layer of subtlety to my arguments that pretty much worked out exactly as I wanted it to.

Being sarcastic?

>>14786367

>"sophisticated" as it relates to the actual story being told within the route

the story is still just a simple romance at the end of the day. It's nice but nothing ground breaking or too complex.

Emi is best route though

>>14787791

>It's also helped by the fact that the share thread is doing a little mini-project with VNs too.

Is there more than one share thread because I checked and the one I got was talking about vore and monstergirls

>>14788170

It may have been the last one. My sense of time is fucked. They were doing a compilation of VNs and a guide for beginners and starters to get them into VNs. I have to remember to post in the VN and see if they have anything to add to that guide if they haven't been notified yet.

https://archive.fo/lUri4#selection-22861.0-22865.55

>>14788391

I forgot that specific linking within an archive doesn't work if you don't enable javascript. So in case you are a non-JS user ctrl-F the pastebin URL to get to the beginning of the post chain where they begin the guide.

https://pastebin.com/XKrrckWf

>>14715328

Untertaint's sprites look like a gbc game, aka fucking horrible. Shantae is the only game on that system I know of that is better than just middling.

>>14788391

>>14788403

Thank you. I've seen this pastebin in the OP of the visual novel thread.

>>14700167

>babby's first VN

>BABBY FIRST VEE ENN

My heightened sixth sense detects some insecurity, anon. What was your first jabbawese visual novel, perhaps - some kinda lurid loli hentai story? Something tells me the anons who tried Katawa Shoujo first, were much more lucky than you.

>>14788425

The first Shantae isn't even a good game. Play more games.

>>14789682

Katawa Shoujo was my first VN around the time it came out, and as much as I love the game to death it was a lot of people's first VN, thus the term. What I'm trying to say is that before DDLC, babby's first VN was actually good, and now that DDLC is a thing, it's not.

>>14789695

I meant good looking. It's an alright game but I just was saying that most gbc games looked terrible because of the tiny pixelcount that meant anything with detail had to take up a huge amount of the screen.

>>14788425

>Shantae is the only game on that system I know of that is better than just middling.

What about Pokemon Crystal and Wario Land 3?

>>14789695

>The first Shantae isn't even a good game. Play more games.

Either bait, or underage.

>>14792125

Again, sorry, I meant good looking, my fault for not repeating that in the last sentence . I recently got all the treasures in wl3 again and it doesn't look horrible, but even wl1 has a more solid artstyle.

>>14793161

>Again, sorry, I meant good looking, my fault for not repeating that in the last sentence

Ah, I gotcha. gg then Anon.

>>14751455

>>14755000

Newfags please leave.

>>14805534

No matter how many times you say it, they won't. It's a fucking joke. Honestly, I'm done trying to tell people to leave, they never do, and they never will. We just have to put our foot down and make people know what we stand for and not budge on it.

Also, I'm going to post this as a friendly reminder of 8ch's cock-slurping for Undertale:

https://8ch.net/vg/res/5880.html

>>14805534

They already succeeded in getting Mark to censor all discussion of the game, why would they leave?

>>14806938

>https://8ch.net/vg/res/5880.html

Someone should archive that to chronicle this shit.

>>14806949

>archive it

Apparently someone else already did http://archive.is/5V0Qs

>>14806938

>/vg/

That place is a shithole.

>>14807029

Yeah, but it's better than this shithole. Personally, I jsut stick to this shithole because the other shithole is too slow, but /v/ is slowing down anyway because it seems everyone is leaving imageboards all-together because the mods are so fucking shitty.

>>14807124

But where are they going?

>thread is still up

Sometimes I appreciate how slow it takes something to fall of on this board.

>>14807209

I guess because the foundation I have with visual novels is the adventure game side of the family I'm drawn to those games more. I haven't made it a secret but I love Hotel dusk and play it on an annual basis because I love the characters and the story. But I also enjoy those brief moments where you solve a child's puzzle, or jimmie a lock, or having the time to utilize the vending machine for an optional side-quest. It's not mechanically deep, nor is it time consuming. But those kind of things really help to punctuate a story for me.

Katawa Shoujo was the first true Novel-style visual novel I played, and I appreciate that experience as well. I really got sucked into a couple routes and even with no minigames of any kind, the game really stuck in my mind after all these years. But for me, if I were to voice my own desires for the future. I'd want to design a game that adds some minor gameplay to the story. I cut my teeth on this genre with NDS titles like Ace Attorney, Trace Memory and Hotel Dusk. I'd then go on to play Snatcher, Policenauts, and Dangan Ronpa. I enjoy just novel-type visual novels, but I really love the idea of mixing this narrative form with some other gameplay components.

I don't pride myself as a writer but I do like to design systems. There are a lot of ideas that just don't get their proper justice in my opinions (like DR being dumbed down from the original concept of DISTRUST) and I have a few ideas of my own that I might one day like to work on some day.

>>14808792

>I have a few ideas of my own that I might one day like to work on some day.

Don't let your dreams be memes Anon. If you're ever interested in putting your words into actions, Renpy is really easy to program, in the sense that even intermediate to advanced things in the engine can be done by a non programmer googling his problems as they come. Who knows, you might come out knowing how to program. Nevertheless, ganbatte my dude.