/v/ - Video Games

>>14019197

(You)

>>14019197

Ok, OP. I'll bite. How the hell are any of Doom's levels like a Zelda dungeon? Feel free to write at length about the topic.

Overcooked is pretty neat. The gameplay only had the commands "move" and "interact" but the levels massively change how the game is played. Each one is an entirely different game.

>>14019310

>How the hell are any of Doom's levels like a Zelda dungeon?

Having you running around just find a key/flip a switch to open a door on the otherside of the level, locking you in areas with enemies until you "beat" them, the weapon placement to help defeat the demon that just dropped right in front of you (If you didn't pick it up earlier), the dungeon/castle aesthetic of the levels designs after Episode 1…

are puzzle games cheating?

>>14019328

wtf, mathematic graph theory is like a zelda dungdgeon

>>14019461

Okay, then you explain Doom's level design since it appears that I don't understand it.

I found Doom 2's level design to be superior. The layout seemed more creative, the secrets and ambushes were more satisfying, and the difficulty was just right.

>>14019328

Are you braindead? A few similarities doesn't make them the same thing. By that logic Devil May Cry's level design was like a zelda dungeon since it had all those things besides dropping the weapon you'd use as the bosses weakness (though you know Doom didn't have that either, bosses didn't need a certain weapon to take them down or that they were weak to. You were meant to mix the weapons up)

>>14019511

>map10

>implying

I didn't like Doom 2's as much as 1, although Thy Flesh Consumed was also fairly shit. Doom 64 is actually one of the best Doom level sets.

>>14019197

Video game level design has yet to surpass the average 70s D&D module. It's all shit.

>>14019808

Okay, care to expand on that because…

THAT IS THE POINT OF THE FUCKING TOPIC?!

>>14019808

What would you do different in game design oh wise one? Or are you just blowing hot air out of your ass?

>>14019814

Fuck anon, it's not our fault you haven't played literally any games we're comparing this to.

>>14019328

What you're writing about sounds like generic dungeon design, OP.

>Having you running around just find a key/flip a switch to open a door on the otherside of the level

>locking you in areas with enemies until you "beat" them

Countless games do this.

>the weapon placement to help defeat the demon that just dropped right in front of you (If you didn't pick it up earlier

What?

>the dungeon/castle aesthetic of the levels designs after Episode 1…

Yeah sure, but again countless games use the same aesthetic.

I'm sorry, OP. But you're really going to have to try harder if you want to convince anyone of their similarities. For starters, Doom is an FPS so it doesn't even play the same. Doom heavily uses monster closets, something that Zelda isn't all that fond of. The puzzle elements in Doom are barebones. Zelda allows you to use items to traverse the levels while the craziest thing you can do in Doom is an early version of rocket jumping. Furthermore, the levels in Zelda are designed around these items. Doom levels are just designed around normal movement and a tiny bit of platforming here and there.

>>14019808

You sound like someone who doesn't play enough video games.

>>14019822

He's got a point, there hasn't been an FPS level more interesting than ones found in Quake and Half-Life really. It's regressed. >>14019826

>Doom is an FPS so it doesn't even play the same.

The principles of exploration and level design are very constant throughout genres. Also Doom is actually a top down shooter with the camera misplaced.

>>14019861

>He's got a point, there hasn't been an FPS level more interesting than ones found in Quake and Half-Life really. It's regressed.

Trying to think about it, what else can there be done that wasn't already accomplished in the 90's? The only thing to come to mind is making "location-based" games like System Shock to have the entire base connected without loading between areas while having to take accomplish tasks with enemy and resource management. "Open-world FPS" titles have already "Peaked" with series like Far Cry, S.T.A.L.K.E.R., and Metroid Prime, and everything since then has been getting lazier in design. Linear shooters are extremely restricted these days to the point that you might as well be playing an "on-rails shooter", given the spectacle. And, the stuff trying to imitate the 90's shooters feel off and/or attach a stupid gimmick to it (That was already done and abandoned for a reason).

>>14019861

>Also Doom is actually a top down shooter with the camera misplaced.

That's a retarded way of putting it, but I do think it's an interesting point of view in light of the actual gameplay. Unfortunately the level design, especially in Doom 2, doesn't seem to agree with you.

>>14019923

>Metroid prime is open world

Isn't it linear? I am saying that because you need upgrades to open later doors and you usually can't get past that unlike Super Metroid where truly everything is open except the last boss. I don't know, I wish someone would explain it to me better.

>>14019328

By that logic practically every FPS that makes you grab keys is a zelda dungeon. The reason Doom levels use keys is to force the player to explore the map, the guys who made Doom didn't like it and wanted a better alternative but they couldn't figure something better out. The weapons that just so happen to be right there when a demon drops is because you fell for a trap.

>>14020139

An FPS with actual Zelda-style dungeons would be cool, honestly.

>>14019197

>original doom

>shooting mechanics

Literally who has ever talked about the shooting in Doom over the level design? The level design is literally the only thing anyone ever talks about with this game.

>>14020968

People jerk off the ssg enough, but its kind of a shit gun that trivializes the game

>>14019933

I was trying to make the point that level design is a very consistent set of principles by pointing out that Doom 2 is actually a 2D game and not a "true 3D" game, thereby forcing you to reexamine it from a new perspective, but you seem to have missed that. The only thing that isn't consistent with later games is that the Doom engine is limited and therefore can't incorporate certain ideas into its design like rooms over other rooms.

>>14019789

Not enough games do open asymmetrical, non-linear urban combat.

Doom 2 had some of the worst level design

>>14019933

Dubsman, if the Doom's map was implemented any more accurately you could play the game entirely using it.

>>14021465

>but you seem to have missed that.

The only possible way anyone would take that is being asinine about Doom's engine being 2.5D.

>>14026002

Brume tower*** fuck

Why doesn't doom guy take the keys with him to the next level?

>>14019197

Classic level design is pretty much key\switch or monster closet based. This is not so much zelda but all action adventure games from that era. You step on a switch and you get either a reward(key) or a trap(monster)

Then proceed to the next level or room

>>14029439

The keys are disintegrated upon contact with the lock so nobody tries to sneak in behind him

>>14029439

Do your house keys work in every house on your street?

I wish more games were inspired by Doom. Sure every FPS ever claims to be inspired by Doom etc but I just haven't seen the type of levels in any other game. All those platforms going up and down, walls appearing and disappearing etc. Like that pentagram shaped room in Doom 1 in which you fight against those two Barons. All the walls around you slowly comes down after you beat them. I didn't even play doom back in the day and actually beat Doom rather recently and was still impressed. And the point is that Doom is full of that kind of almost surreal level design. Some modern games might have one or two scripted sequences like that but during the animation they're likely to be surrounded by invisible wall to ensure you don't walk into the animation and cause some glitch to happen. In Doom all those walls and platforms are part of the gameplay.

I might be wrong on this but seriously I can't think of any FPS games with as creative level design as doom. They're all so static compared to Doom.

i also like to italicize each and every noun i use in a sentence

>>14029492

some levels use the same key multiple times

Duke Nukem 3D still has some of the best map design I've seen in an FPS.

>>14029582

They're made of Levelium.

>>14029503

That's the best and simplest explanation.

Each of those keycards are only usable in one installation/building. Given that he never returns to a level he already cleared he has no reason to carry around a wreath of obsolete keycards.

>>14029654

leftypoleddigoon detected

>>14029532

I agree. Stuff like moving walls and ceilings tends to be confined to adventure games. Doom tend to stand out from other FPS in that the environment is very dynamic. This can be used to great effect like in the example you put or something like Dead Simple in Doom 2 where the level will suddenly open up. It also has shitty uses like chaingunner closets, but that depends on how much of a dick the map designer feels like at a particular point in time.

>>14019326

that game is shit though

>>14029532

>And the point is that Doom is full of that kind of almost surreal level design

And of course ZeniMax missed the point of that entirely with their game last year.

>>14019197

Isn't gameplay largely determined by level design? Gameplay isn't divorced from level design. Playing through a level is the gameplay.

>>14047707

What you call "gameplay" is different to what OP means by "gameplay", by which he refers to the gameplay mechanics/gameplay systems that are leveraged through level design to create the gameplay experience that you simply call "gameplay".

>>14026002

>Are you really gonna tell me that landing a warthog in a scarab doesn't surpass Half life?

Um, maybe if you're a pleb who only cares about set pieces. Fitting that you mention Half Life since its primary contribution was also set pieces.

>>14025764

It's not asinine at all, it's how the game is fucking designed. Blame Carmack not me. All you need is a few interface touch ups and Doom would be fully playable from the automap. This is also why DoomRL "feels" so much like Doom even though its a top down turn based roguelike.

>>14029532

Honestly a lot of Doom's levels are just not that good fuck you Sandy Petersen. It's a byproduct of the team at id not being that experienced at level design with FPSes yet. A lot of them are, don't get me wrong, but I think most observing designers threw the baby out with the bathwater. There was also a massive industry wide obsession with making design and aesthetics more realistic because everyone seemed to believe that it signified progress, and those games which came after set the example for today. I think most game designers today look at the surreal design of id's levels and think "how amateurish."

sage for triple post

>>14029646

>Anyone with half a brain and has played Doom will know that they are designed like mazes

Why is this necessarily a bad thing?

>>14048818

Even Quake was supposed to be a dungeon crawler at first. I guess that's why you got that axe as a melee weapon. Then they ditched the idea and went with the safer route by making it more like Doom.

>>14050854

Original Quack was meant to be more like Hexen, medieval style fantasy mainly around melee weapons Originally starting weapon was a hammer, that got changed to axe for final Quack release

>>14050879

It'd still be pretty fucking rad to go around hitting dudes with a hammer.

Though the Mjolnir in the expansion was pretty fucking piss.

>>14054792

There's PRBoom+, which is fantastic for mapsets, but doesn't really offer too much in the way of mods.

>>14054792

Can be the fault of the mapper. You really gotta know how the engine works if you're going to make a large/detailed map or you'll end up with a level the engine must render in it's entirety (including all monsters) all the time.

Quake is the same, but it's mappers are more conscious of engine technicalities on average.

>>14054792

>gzdoom

Might be your problem there.

As the other anon said, prboom+ (and also glboom+) are good, but many of the cool Doom wads only work with gzdoom, which is also optimized better for nvidia cards iirc.

>>14061109

Some general '90s mapsets seem like they might fit, since they were generally more "loose" with placement and layout and less reliant on finely-tuned encounters.

Equinox might be good, as long as you replace out the music.

>>14054792

ZDoom's low performance largely depends on the renderer used. If you use base ZDoom, it uses the original software renderer which is really fucking light; If you instead use GrafZahl's GZDoom renderer, you're basically waiting for your GPU to explode because his renderer not only requires GL3.0+ but also has memory leaks all over depending on which texture or node you're looking at.

I recommend using QZDoom, as that uses a slightly modified ZDoom renderer with true colour aka sprites not required to use a color pallete to display colours and is also constantly updated as well.

>>14019197

>Why doesn't anyone ever talk about the level design?

are you joking? this is brought up every time doom is brought up

>>14019776

are you retarded or something? do you not understand english? he said its like something, not that it is a carbon copy.

>>14061155

QZDoom is a must if you want to play almost any mapset nowadays. While ZDoom's base renderer is great, it hasn't been worked on in years and there's issues with it that are not present in QZDoom or GZDoom. Sucks because it was the best thing to use for many years, but Randy just stopped caring.

>>14069399

Why did he stop caring?

>>14019823

but thats not what he asked