03f274 No.13729726
Typical [ATTACK/SPECIAL/ITEM/DEFEND] games, your average Atlus game, Persona, Pokemon, Atelier, Neptunia, Dragon Quest, Shin Megami Tensei, Final Fantasy, I could go on.
Do you even care about the combat mechanics? Is it style over substance? Is the tiny bit of interaction granted to you between attack animations even worth it?
If there genuinely is any meaningful amount of thought, strategy, timing, awareness, or mental investment of any kind that goes into flailing your way through these combat systems I really don't see it. The most strategy I've ever seen out of these games involves item use and management, which is something I (personally) consider to be a crutch.
If you strip away the flashing lights and animations, would you even have an interesting combat system? Beyond the basic choice of fighting enemies for money/loot/exp or avoiding them to save items/health for future conflict, is there any actual investment in the combat? If boss enemies (the only true roadblocks in suck a game) weren't fundamentally designed to require you grinding hundreds or even thousands of mooks before them just to be able to barely scrape by them, would you bother with the battles?
Don't get me wrong, I can see the appeal up to a point. If you stripped all the regular mooks out of the game so that you wouldn't have to see the same attack animation thousands of fucking times before you get to a meaningful battle, there could be some manner of entertainment in it simply for wanting to see all the various attack animations and interactions.
And yes, I can see the argument for many action-oriented games going a similar route, especially in games with enemies that are quickly dispatched and don't have complicated AIs. Yes, there are some action games where the only reason for you to attack an enemy is to either remove them as an obstacle or to achieve the pure catharsis of a satisfying animation. But in a good action game that is truly memorable and worth recommending to anyone, combat with enemies is a learning experience that teaches you not only how to deal with certain aspects of enemy AI behavior, but gives you a more forgiving opportunity to try out alternative approaches and tactics than boss enemies.
In turn-based RPGs I can't see any difference. Every top-100 list of JRPGs is full of the same core gameplay, the same enemies that take no thought to deal with, the same kind of bosses that are huge damage sponges that require no more strategy than "have enough levels/defense to be able to deal at least some damage in between healing item/skill uses" and are propped up by literally every other feature of the game (story, music, aesthetic, etc.) instead.
I'm asking out of ignorance because I'm not intimate with this genre, is it actually significantly different from just reading a VN and/or playing a puzzle game instead? It seems like the only standout feature of this genre – the extremely basic combat system – just isn't enough of an attraction to be enticing by itself.
Am I wrong?
Am I missing out?
I'm not proofreading this, just tell me whether turn based RPGs are a shit genre for shit people or not
7ecc3c No.13729752
No. The only shit genre for shit people are walking sims. Sage for fucking retarded thread.
03f274 No.13729755
>>13729752
>retarded thread
DON'T SAGE YOU BUTTHOLE I SPENT A WHOLE TEN MINUTES TYPING THIS THING OUT
68d393 No.13729766
e8a3dd No.13729774
>>13729755
I know, jesus christ its so long I don't even want to read it.
Can't you give me the abridged version or something? Or do have to read the whole thing? I mean you DID spend 10 minutes on it, but I just don't have it in me.
2aab18 No.13729783
7ecc3c No.13729788
>>13729755
and in that time you could have thought of why this thread would be dumb. I don't know what to tell you.
03f274 No.13729796
>>13729788
Do you just want people to stop posting new threads on /v/ forever so nothing can ever displease you again?
157579 No.13729810
>story/characters/world/music/any combination interests me
>therefore the gameplay becomes tolerable, even enjoyable during mundane shit like planning out a strategy to kill all enemies in one turn, or exploration
>when the game decides to ramp up the challenge(bosses) it becomes very enjoyable gameplaywise.
That's all there is to it. It's funny, outside of a certain game I hadn't touched a jrpg, then someone recommended Lufia and trails and I marathoned them in a month and liked them enough to branch out
73d994 No.13729823
How many of the games you listed have you actually played? The fact that you lumped SMT in with "bosses that are huge damage sponges that require no more strategy than 'have enough levels'" is baffling.
1f1043 No.13729839
>I'm not proofreading this
If you can't be bothered to read what you wrote again, why should I read it once?
b66396 No.13729851
>>13729755
How fucking retarded to you have to be for that to take 10 minutes to type?
03f274 No.13729867
>>13729851
OP contains 529 words. 529 divided by 10 is 52.9. That means I was typing an average of 52.9 words per minute.
73d994 No.13729871
>>13729867
That's less than half the typing speed of a competent person.
cdc973 No.13729875
>>13729726
I'm sorry but I just think the whole idea of turn based RPGs is retarded. It's kept me from truly enjoying JRPGs (Other than the same plots and characters over and over again.) Nobody fights like this in real life. One person doesn't wait until the other person hits them. Why couldn't they just go the Zelda route and have you fight in real time? Or am I asking too much of them? Or do I not have the patience to strategize during combat?
e8a3dd No.13729879
>>13729867
You just keep digging that bully hole deeper and deeper don't you?
03f274 No.13729881
>>13729871
If you're re-typing text you're actively looking at then 120WPM is not unheard of.
c12482 No.13729882
>>13729867
>he can't think faster than 53 words per minute
73d994 No.13729894
>>13729881
If you're a competent person, you're probably not re-typing text frequently enough that it halves your typing speed. You sure you don't like turn-based games? Seems like they would be your speed
68d393 No.13729896
>>13729755
what the fuck mang i cant typed this shit in 1 second here even some time lef
b8f2e6 No.13729905
>>13729755
Does someone have the copypasta?
08c4ed No.13729947
well, it usually is just a book that you would like to explore and kill some stuff while you are at it. you play because of the story not because of the action, some visual novels even have turn based fights, i don't see much difference from jrpgs imo
dc90b0 No.13730007
Fuck it, I'll bite. I can't speak for every JRPG ever made, but a lot of what you say is only true to the shittier entries to Final Fantasy and Dragon Quest.
>any meaningful amount of thought, strategy, timing, awareness, or mental investment of any kind
Obviously timing is rarely relevant, with the exception of a few games like the Mario RPGs, but yes there are games with all these things.
SMT's combat has a focus on weaknesses, where being able to deal the right type of damage can make or break almost any fight. You have the same mechanics on your own party's weaknesses, so you have to pay attention to the type of enemy you're fighting, and who is in your party.
But the point of JRPGs aren't the combat, it never has been about combat since the first Dragon Quest. You called it the "core gameplay", but that's not the right phrase to use at all. Is the core gameplay of Thief the combat? You (can) do it throughout the game, so obviously that's the core of the game. But any Thief player would tell you that the core gameplay is everything outside of combat, especially while avoiding it. How about Command & Conquer, is the core gameplay to fight enemy units? Again, you're doing it during the entire game, so obviously it's important. But the game (and the entire RTS genre) is about the more broad idea of taking over enemy bases and directing units in a strategic manner. All that shit is left to the AI for you to focus more on the core gameplay.
So let's look back on SMT: the dungeons (at least in the good entries to the series) are very complex and require good navigation skills to avoid wasting time. Wasting time is actually punished via magnetite, which is consumed by the demons you have summoned upon every step. Obviously, for SMT and other dungeon crawler JRPGs, the core gameplay isn't in the combat, but in everything you're doing outside of combat.
Pokemon is for children, but it's still a JRPG so I have to defend it. Its core gameplay is in the exploration and discovery of the creatures that populate the game's world. Combat is only there to give the player a reason to use those monsters, but if battling via turns were stripped out, the resulting game would still be Pokemon.
There's also plenty of JRPGs on the more tactical side, like Shining Force, Final Fantasy Tactics, Fire Emblem, etc., that require much more strategy, awareness, and higher stakes via permadeath. It might be argued that these aren't JRPGs, but then you'd have to argue that Fallout isn't a western CRPG.
>But in a good action game… combat with enemies is a learning experience that teaches you not only how to deal with certain aspects of enemy AI behavior, but gives you a more forgiving opportunity to try out alternative approaches and tactics than boss enemies.
Almost every good turn-based RPG does this. Just because a genre isn't up to your taste doesn't mean it completely lacks design.
I'm sorry you're an ADD riddled faggot who needs to constantly mash buttons in order to think a game is fun and deep. There's more to every type of game than just fucking shit up, but I know that's hard for you to conceptualize when your taste consists of Musou and Diablo clones
0a6bd0 No.13730011
I love a good tactical turn based game. I've never played on of these games that called for a more complex strategy than hammering the attack command, and healing when necessary.
73e029 No.13730062
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
Turn based RPG combat when done well is EXTREMELY addicting. For example, I like JRPGs that force you to understand the different skills and abilities you have access to , and then develop a strategy by choosing which ones you want to implement.
I will say that there are a lot of JRPGs that lean on grinding and item management as a replacement for actual gameplay. I personally think the perfect JRPG would be one that did away with experience and levels all together, and only gave you skill points. That way you could learn the game's base mechanics and slowly develop your character/s skills.
598191 No.13730101
>>13729755
YOU FUCKING POOR NEWBIE
ENJOY YOUR FUCKING STAY
03f274 No.13730118
>>13730101
is this a .hack reference?
598191 No.13730133
>>13729726
I only want turn based games if there's something really appealing at the core.
I want to someday try out Blue Reflection for wonderful yuri goodness, but first I have to see what it offers mechanically and thematically that everything else doesn't.
I usually only want turn based games on handheld because they seem to work best there in terms of "Here's this and a whole game about the fun of using it". I wish so many other RPG series like Neptunia would at least go "We're not just another turn based game selling itself with softcore pandering, let's see some real action" and go the action route" because you see so often so many unique designs and abilities that could really be enjoyable to get cuhrayzee with.
9e32fe No.13730140
I have wondered about the same thing, especially when people recommended shit like Persona 3, 4 or 5.
The gameplay is just mindless waiting for animation and occasional input from the player when he feels like it. Its just boring, slow shit to stretch out playtime.
JRPGs in general are just fucking terrible with the most bland, inane characters you can imagine and then they add turnbased JRPG combat to make them even worse.
I never understood why Neptunia was popular here, when its literal moeshit and the videogame equivalent of K-On!
Is it some sort of autism where you get a hard on when the numbers get higher, or lack of human contact outside of these games?
I never understood it, and any time I tried to get into them I was at best merely tolerating it.
1433fb No.13730173
>>13729726
Hey retard different people likes different things, just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's bad, your nothing special just another dickhead
Didn't read and sage
0a6bd0 No.13730235
>>13730140
>I never understood why Neptunia was popular here, when its literal moeshit and the videogame equivalent of K-On!
Is that a serious question?
ee5ef1 No.13730245
>>13730140
now that's some real reddit spacing right there
9e32fe No.13730260
>>13730235
Yes, I don't get how anybody who isn't autistic could suffer through more than 20 minutes of it.
>>13730245
I have been on imageboards for over 10 years you dumb nigger.
b4fea5 No.13730261
>>13730140
>Is it some sort of autism where you get a hard on when the numbers get higher,
Yes it is. I really enjoyed FFV's jobs and mastery system for this reason.
0a6bd0 No.13730262
>>13730260
They like it because it's literal moeshit and the videogame equivalent of K-On! Come on, man.
947637 No.13730497
I don't know the press turn system from SMT:N basically carried the game for me.
09a38f No.13730510
710619 No.13730513
since I do not understand these games and their appeal let me ask those who like them
why can I have fun battling a braindead human opponent in pokemon showdown, or one of the tabletop card games I play, but have no fun actually playing turn based rpg including the aformentioned pokemon franchise? as far as I can tell the gameplay is the same, and I can enjoy action rpg well enough when they are not menu slogs
6adc43 No.13730521
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
Last Remnant is basically the JRPG tropes (good and bad) turned up to 11 and it's just fantastic.
>When you're on the last half of the game and fighting the special bosses and this track kicks in for the first time
6adc43 No.13730526
>>13730513
Players are an unknown. It's like an unpredictable AI. There's only so many ways you a zombie encounter will go, but for Showdown, there's a lot more variance
598191 No.13730599
710619 No.13730604
>>13730526
I am not sure if it is just that, for example RNG in games is an unknown but I dont particulalrly like it
it is certainly partly that though
now that I am thinking about it…
one of the things I really like about showdown is playing with the mechanics, since we have gimped ourselves over in the fullderp thread we have to use lesser known and off meta mechanics to win, or playing with the mechanics with goals other then to win the match, also there is no gay ass grindan
so I would say one of the things I really like about showdown and whatnot is mechanic interaction aka combos aka builds maybe if I played more turn based shit… but the majority of it wouldnt really fit me so there is mostly suffering ahead
or perhaps you are right and its just that those low ladder faggots I lose too always have the slight chance of doing something outside their flowchart
6adc43 No.13730642
>>13730604
This is actually where the phrase "beginner's luck" comes from.
An expert player knows the game inside and out. He knows the optimal plays, what to do in every situation, and knows another equally skilled opponent knows the same things. Thus, there's a silent consensus on what you'll do, and what the opponent will do in return; high level MTG or Chess or GO operates like this.
This you have a new player who just takes things at face value and "does them" and gets a lucky win and catches the other player off guard
7017fe No.13730846
>>13729875
It's a RPG, Role Playing Game. Meaning everything is represented by numbers. For this reason, roles are based on abilities with certain roles having better stats in certain areas than others. It's not that people are waiting their turn, it's how the game calculates their turn order due to their speed or agility. The point is that reflexes and good hand eye coordination aren't what's important here. It's good decision making and proper management of resources. An action RPG combine both skills and stats where you can play freely but stats still matter to some extent like in Tales of Vesperia.
598191 No.13730928
>>13730007
13th fucking amendment, anon.
0a6bd0 No.13730929
>>13730846
>It's good decision making and proper management of resources
A lot of them don't even do that right though.
7017fe No.13730953
>>13730929
Examples? I can definitely say Final Fantasy as they give you so many items that you never have to worry about resources making most of the games pathetically easy. Meanwhile Dragon Quest has much better management when it comes to MP as there's barely any way to replenish it. Some games, where turn order is determined by speed and delay of attacks, make it so the very powerful attacks delay your character for a long time.
c51cf0 No.13731215
>>13730133
Games like Blue reflection are good because of the story, characters, music and overall degeneracy.
I don't really play JPN games for the astounding and innovative gameplay.
c98aa0 No.13731224
>>13731215
>that
>deteriorating its society, let alone 3Dshit world
Stop.
4d6b6c No.13731237
>What if you stripped all the filler fights away and only had bosses and meaningful fights?
f30d59 No.13731249
>>13729726
>typical turn based combat
>uses Persona and Shin Megami Tensei's Press Turn system as an example
5f012f No.13731257
>>13731237
>fighting anthropomorphic carrots with a vore fetish
>not meaningful
bea5aa No.13731269
>>13729755
GOOD JOB ANON
within one post, with one line of text and a pic, you managed to make the best argument possible for inviting people to bully you.
And you deserve it
e4141f No.13731331
At their best, JRPGs can almost turn into puzzle games where you have to work out how to use the resources you have to achieve victory. The problem is that a lot of them aren't that good and the way to win is to grind levels and mash A. If you need to grind, either you don't understand the mechanics or the mechanics aren't deep enough.
Pokemon XD has a minigame where each battle is a puzzle with set pokemon and only one way to win, and it's one of the best things about that game. In Bravely Default you've got a ton of options and once you work out the mechanics and assemble your broken combo you'll win every fight by doing 9999 damage four times a turn. Something in between, where you get to build your own strategy but enemy encounters force you to change tactics and there's no one way to win every fight is the ideal for JRPGs but it takes a lot of work to achieve this.
a56f00 No.13731358
>>13730261
I loved 5 because of how you can take an ineffectual character and use creativity to modify him into a professional motherfucker. (Berserkers with whips stunning neo exdeath!) The one Final Fantasy game I had tons of fun playing.
a8b7e9 No.13731366
>>13729755
If I sage will you die?
e1d095 No.13731408
I want to sniff Zidane's farts and lick his fucking asshole.
77d6f8 No.13731463
the most basic combat mechanics in JRPGs can be rather boring
take final fantasy 7 for example, the fun in that game was mixing up Materias and tailoring your party
other games like shadow hearts or valkyrie profile and even super mario RPG have tryed to shake this formula a bit adding some action elements into the mix
FFX is the one i remember with the most strategic combat sistem (outide of the tactics series) the problem was that sometimes the combat became so monotonous it was almost like a skinner box
Then FFXII came around and the fun of that game was basically programing your party's AI, stock them up, leave them fighting the invinsible secret boss on their own while you go take a nap, only to come back and find your party making the victory dance
331198 No.13731486
>>13729726
turn-based combat is, without a doubt, the worst combat system because 9 times out of 10 the developer doesn't know how to make it anything other than trash
3b97fb No.13731526
f30d59 No.13731789
>>13731526
>RPGs: On Insomnia, the pure, unadulterated "RPG" label will only be applied to games that deserve it (i.e. to narrative-driven games in which the player's choices "shape the direction and outcome" of the story) so that when you buy them you'll be assured that actual role-playing will be involved. So far the only non-MMO electronic game I am personally aware of that deserves to be called an RPG is Deus Ex, and even that is not a pure RPG, because there is a heavy action element.
>the only games that count as pure RPGs are walking simulators with dialogue choices and must lack action segments
>when the term for RPG came from table top games that had more then just story elements
This is bullshit and you're a fag for posting it.
7c63f3 No.13731794
>>13731486
there's quite a few good ones out there
>>13731789
don't respond to icycalm, he's a retard
a2320b No.13731796
>OP left bread
>Neo-/v/ in a nutshell
4823f2 No.13731804
>>13731789
>But since early D&D modules themselves consisted of little more besides dungeon crawling, the pioneers of CRPGs could at least claim that their games managed to capture to a degree the spirit of those early modules.
The same article admits that early RPGs were an extension of wargaming and consisted of little more than dungeon crawling and battling with stat based combat and dice roles.
a2ffb9 No.13731884
Isolating and criticising a single part of a larger game, and then not even doing that well.
Strategy in a JRPG comes not only within the battle itself, but in preparation before that, in group composition, equipment/items, spells/skills etc.
Take a game like Suikoden
It houses a vast array of characters, some of which can work together in combo attacks
Each character can carry a magic orb, giving them access to a set of skills or magic, each character can have their equipment upgraded and items can be purchased to aid in battle.
Many characters, orbs and equipment are only available through exploration outside of the main quest.
While two players may face the exact same battle, the one who explored more outside of battle has greater tactical options
More characters to choose from, more spells to choose from etc. which will make the battle itself easier.
The fun in a JRPG comes from party development (which is only lacking choice in very early FF/DQ games. Even then, job systems were introduced early and experimental systems like FF2's can be fun, if a little grindy), exploration of a vast gameworld (which is rewarded with new characters, equipment or skills unavailable through towns), management of limited resources within a challenging dungeon, and tactical battles (I dare you to play SMT with the "just mash attack" mindset)
And that's only discussing gameplay, without going into how enjoyable the story and setting can be
684e10 No.13732321
>>13731486
>because 9 times out of 10 the developer doesn't know how to
f30d59 No.13732328
>>13732321
>I'm a baka gaijin who doesn't realize that the only games I get to see in English are one's the were already successful and even then they had to think it worthwhile to translate
Much like the western market, a majority of JRPGs are trash you just don't get to see them because they died in Japan.
68d410 No.13732618
>>13729726
>Turn based JRPGs
So…JRPGs?
c711d3 No.13732719
>>13731237
>not being able to die in half the boss fights
>meaningful
8dfd33 No.13732763
>Is it style over substance?
For the most part yes. That is why Persona is successful even though it is retardedly simple in terms of combat and story. Blue reflection however was really stupid in the worst way as they set up this quite interesting system where you had tons of tools at your disposal but the game was so easy that you didn't need them.
ecf999 No.13732929
>>13732763
>Try out Persona 4
>Combat is very simplistic and you'll be doing that a lot while exploring. It's so barebones you can't even have any variety in your team setup for the most part.
>Dungeons are lazily generated with no variety or thought put into them. They're never fun to explore as the loot is just random shit for the most part. Every single one of them is designed exactly the same way.
>Don't care for most of the characters. The more interesting adult characters are just side characters. Tons of angst teen drama over small bullshit.
All that leaves is music which was nice at times. Still, that game is a hot mess that would have honestly enjoyed more if it was simply a visual novel. At least then I could get comfy and dick the boring female characters.
f30d59 No.13733085
Should games RPGs be differentiated between simple or complex, or rather, static and dynamic? For instance FFVII has preset characters that go through a preset story and the only real control you have is over equipment, how many things you bother fighting, and how many side quests you do. In the end however, the main campaign is a static story with a static ending. Meanwhile, we can compare it to say, Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne. A game that gave you an incredibly large roster with which to create your team, choices on what skills a characters uses or inherits, and most importantly, gave you multiple options in multiple ways to choose 5 different endings. One being a "static" game you role play through and a dumbed down story that doesn't vary much and a more "dynamic" RPG that has a variable story along with a more variable party. Both being RPGs and both having turn-based combat if mildly different due to certain gauges and what not but different nuances in story interaction Of course it may be more of a spectrum rather then 2 hard cut areas but I believe this is why so many people sperg about JRPGs not being RPGs as much as it's accurate to say they're severely dumbed down one's most of the time.
8cc020 No.13733213
>>13732719
have you played a kill them all run?
2ab9f0 No.13733306
>>13733085
It's completely up to the developer's intent, and there's merit to each. It's the same question as asking whether open world or linear progression should be used. Open world gives the player the freedom to experiment, explore, and play around in the sandbox, but the ability for the dev to design good challenges and creative levels is gimped.
More dynamic, systems-based RPG with mechanics that interact to make Emergent Gameplay™ is a very western style of game. Japan has always focused on making gameplay simple and easy to digest, compared to having giant book manuals. So the static, simple JRPG Dragon Quest came out of Japan as the response to the west's much more complex Ultima. Later titles tried adding deeper character building, but not before beefing up the story and linear aspects. Even SMT is pretty simple in comparison to many western dungeon crawlers, so it's certainly a spectrum
f30d59 No.13733370
>>13733306
It's correct it's up to the developer's intent but people seem to get butthurt that a game like FFVII is called an RPG because there's no choices involving actually influencing the story as opposed to say Shin Megami Tensei. FFVII is certainly an RPG, just, if we were to use new words to describe genres. A static one.
856136 No.13733645
>>13730133
Ehh, it's less yuri and more relationships highschool girls form. Shihori is pretty gay though and her story fits nice with Hinako. It is abit too easy though and if you grind early then you can just nuke most encounters when you reach LV25 and you'll get a full heal after every battle. Story is pretty worth it though but the ending is kinda weak.
Did a playthough of it and took some screenshots over at >>>/u/27423
e685a4 No.13733768
While I agree with >>13730007 OP did raise a point about how bad RPGs where regular enemies can be curb-stomped with "hit it hard" however you like, and maybe a few heals early on- while bosses are damage sponges you try to outlive.
Like >>13731331 says, each battle should be a puzzle- until you're strong enough to ignore the puzzle and just hit them really hard (usually after gaining 2 or 3 levels from the boss).
Persona 5 has the thing I assume where you basically stun lock enemies with weaknesses- and you need to early on in a dungeon because they'll kick your dick otherwise. And you don't always have the luxury of being able to cover all elements against all your foes.
Even Megaman X Command Mission had Weapon Energy (MP) management, and the super-forms. Not that it was a great RPG.
Given me stuff to think about if I ever make my own RPG. As a minor note >>13732929 points out how bad RPGs with lots of side features (if you enjoy them) can be relaxing and "comfy". Just enough of an illusion the game has a challenge, but nothing to calculate over.
b88034 No.13733833
>>13730007
>But the point of JRPGs aren't the combat, it never has been about combat since the first Dragon Quest.
So what is the point? If it's just for the plot there's no reason it can't just be an anime or something.
067c93 No.13733938
File: df86132312b5698⋯.jpg (Spoiler Image, 307.34 KB, 546x827, 546:827, __caster_fate_extra_and_fa….jpg)
>>13729755
Caster doesn't love you, OP. She loves me.
2ab9f0 No.13734028
>>13733833
You're exactly right. Why can't Monkey Island just be a cartoon or something? Why can't Deus Ex just be a book? Why can't we cut every single minigame out of GTA and Saint's Row? In fact, we could make every game a lot better if we just cut out all the pretty graphics and lighting effects, we should just use flat colored polygons or, better yet, a series of numbers to indicate the player's position and enemy position! That way it wouldn't be anything but gameplay, a true game.
c98aa0 No.13734389
>>13733938
She looks fuckable.
7ef2b3 No.13734470
>>13733768
Problems with level balance are pretty much the entire reason people have the idea that JRPGs are "grind to win". A good JRPG gives you the choice to either be smart about item use and skill use or faceroll weaklings for five hours until you're overleveled for the next boss. But a lot of players ignore the ability to be smart with the game system and just grind, then bitch that the game lets them grind.
7ea268 No.13736048
>>13730929
Over leveling is a problem in turn based combat especially in ones with random enemy spawns.
ae72d9 No.13736198
>>13732763
Persona's (I'm assuming your talking about P3 and up) combat system was popular because it refined turn base combat dramatically compared to what was common back in that day. The Final Fantasy system was the dominant turn based system and boiled down to this:
>Attack with your strongest hitting attack
>Running low on HP? just cast a cure/revive with your nigh endless supply of mp (Don't worry, every party member can learn cure/revive as well as every other skill in the game)
>Running low on MP? Just use one of your 99 ethers or hi-ethers to replenish it all
>Got hit with a status effect? Just use one of your 99 remedys and your good to go (Half of those status effects were trivial anyways)
>Got hit with a stat reducing effect? Don't worry about it, it won't have any affect on the outcome of the battle whatsoever.
>Finished the battle with low ANYTHING? No worries, you have a nigh endless supply of items to put you back at perfect condition for the next fight.
>Running low on items? They're dirt cheap
>XP system is linear, no limit on overleveling
Going from that to the SMT system was a breath of fresh air:
>Various elements, generally only one character can learn all of them at once. Attacking recklessly can be ineffective, make you miss your turn, or even kill you.
>Limited recovery methods in battle, some characters can't heal at all. Items are expensive/limited/usable by only one person.
>Limited recovery methods outside of battle. Battles will commonly be fought at subpar conditions. Resource management comes into play.
>Status effects with far more potent consequences, the "cure all" items and spells are either rare or obtained near end game.
>Stat increasing and reducing effects are vital and can either lead to a swift death, or a survivable victory.
>XP gains get smaller as the level difference between you and the enemy get larger.
The SMT system's more restrictive nature allowed for a far more complex level of challenge compared to what the FF system could offer and is probably one of the reasons why it was so popular at the time.
Unfortunately, ever since the SMT system came to dominance 10+ years ago, there hasn't been any new revolutionary system to take its place. Worse yet, there hasn't really been any effective use of the SMT system in creating meaningful and unique challenges. Case in point, the bosses of P5 felt mechanically simpler than the bosses of P4. The only one that felt like it might have had some creativity put into it was the Michael fight, and that's only if your really underleveled. With the high amount of resources you could get by end game and increased versatility of your team, P5 really felt like it was going back to the vastly inferior FF system of turn based combat.
ecf999 No.13736273
>>13736198
I think Falcom combining some other RPG elements into their Legend of Heroes series is a little refreshing.
>Can set up orbs that give certain skills and passives but each character has a different way of setting up said orbs
>Everyone can move around the battlefield instead of the basic Front/Back formation.
>Your weapon determines your attack pattern. A shotgun has a spreading pattern in front of the attacker so his normal moves can hit multiple opponents at the same time.
>Attacks all have delays of some sort. The better the attack the longer the delay.
>There's a constant lineup of passives that happen on certain turns and you can influence who goes on that turn by planning your moves wisely.
>Separate bar for magic and techniques. One is massive but doesn't replenish while the other constantly regenerates but doesn't have a large pool.
I like how Legends of Heroes Cold Steel 3 makes it so every option is simply a face button. Smartest thing I've seen done with a RPG UI in a while.
ecf999 No.13736297
>>13736273
I also like the increase of Dungeon RPGs we've been getting lately. Most likely because they're cheaper to make than normal JRPGs. Either way, they cut out most of the story in favor for tons of exploration, combat, and team building. Etrian Odyssey 3 and Dungeon Travelers 2 are great examples IMO.
I really like how DT2's story mode was essentially a tutorial for the real meat of the game which is post game. Where you can easily get your ass kicked in random encounters and running away isn't an uncommon tactic. Enemy teams come with a large variety of setups with multiple ways to screw your team over. There were plenty of times I had to change teams because 1 enemy setup always kicked my ass and having a full screen paralyze spell completely crippled the enemy. I also liked how the game actually rewarded you for investing a lot into a certain move unlike Etrian Odyssey where maxing out skills is usually a bad idea due to diminishing returns. I had a sage that could cast death and it was pretty accurate to the point that I would constantly use it.
74c0ef No.13736386
On the topic of over leveling, would putting a temporary level cap fix this?
Say, no more than 5 levels above what you should be at? Or should it be theoretically possible to defeat end boss at level 1, assuming you have the items?
>>13734470
>Problems with level balance are pretty much the entire reason people have the idea that JRPGs are "grind to win". A good JRPG gives you the choice to either be smart about item use and skill use or faceroll weaklings for five hours until you're overleveled for the next boss. But a lot of players ignore the ability to be smart with the game system and just grind, then bitch that the game lets them grind.
I don't think this is perfectly accurate, and if i'm wrong then name a JRPG that can be reasonably beat with no grinding. Recently i played skies of arcadia again, and even with mild grinding, i had to retreat from the first dungeon. Now possible solutions are to catch sky fish for potion, and mana restore substitution which is a form of grinding, or return home and quickly get a full HP and MP restore. Both solutions i think are not signs of a bad game, but i'd say skies of arcadia has a good combat system once you get further into it. let me be clear, the problem i had was endurance, not winning fights.
ecf999 No.13736418
>>13736386
>I don't think this is perfectly accurate, and if i'm wrong then name a JRPG that can be reasonably beat with no grinding.
Not even exaggerating but most modern JRPGs from the past decade. Last game I had to grind for was Dragon Quest V to get my children up to a decent level so they wouldn't be OHKO'd by the behemoth boss. Only to realize I was fighting him way earlier than I should have and still won underleveled.
>Recently i played skies of arcadia again, and even with mild grinding, i had to retreat from the first dungeon.
I've replayed this game many times and never had to do this. Then again, I was playing Legends which has a lower encounter rate than the original.
cd6ef3 No.13736515
>>13736386
>On the topic of over leveling, would putting a temporary level cap fix this?
>Say, no more than 5 levels above what you should be at? Or should it be theoretically possible to defeat end boss at level 1, assuming you have the items?
Some games try to do this by making it so that mobs give too little experience to properly grind against anymore at a point and you only start getting good amounts of exp again when you move on past the boss.
There were also some games that made it possible to defeat the final boss at level 1 by basically letting you craft retardedly strong equipment. I think Star Ocean 3 even had an achievement for this.
834d58 No.13737775
>>13729726
>If you strip away the flashing lights and animations
theyre called video games for a reason
a56f00 No.13737805
>>13736386
> On the topic of over leveling, would putting a temporary level cap fix this?
a few games like SMT, Ys and Genius of Sappheiros had scaling experience points, meaning when a low level character kills a high level monster the experience gained is highly increased and vice versa(SaGa has scaling stat/skill gains, which works much the same way). A good system, since it not only puts you at a level where you have a decent challenge, it punishes overzealous grinders while rewarding players who dare attack strong monsters.
4c8422 No.13737909
>>13737805
Lunar 1, and I think 2 as well(haven't played 2) had bosses that scaled with the player. So if you were a few lvls above the boss, his stats would increase, and the same would happen if you were a few lvls below the boss. However, I think there was a range for this, so you couldn't defeat all the bosses at lvl 1, and if you were 30 lvls above a boss' lvl, it wouldn't scale with your lvl.
ea13eb No.13738110
With JRPGs I only care about 4 things:
>engaging mechanics/gameplay
>appealing art style
>cute female characters
>comedy
My favourite one in the genre would be Valkyria Chronicles. Everything feels a bit restrictive after a while, but the base game is so exceptional that it doesn't even matter.
Right now I'm playing the first Disaea and it has all 4 points. It's a fun game with a lot to do and plenty of freedom.
I cannot stand the likes of Final Fantasy or Persona (social part is hit and miss) because they feel like a chore and just aren't very engaging most of the time.
An exception which doesn't have very diverse mechanics/combinations that I like would be Valkyrie Profile. VP is totally worth it just to see Lezard's genius in action. Besides that, it's a very standard JRPG, although everything about it is of significantly higher quality than average.
I could name some more, but I honestly don't remember much about most of them since I did most of my JRPG playing a long time ago.
c98aa0 No.13738122
>>13738110
What does this have to do with girls grabbing other girls' boobs?
ea13eb No.13738155
File: 77f73c9530c08fb⋯.jpg (Spoiler Image, 1.09 MB, 1060x1500, 53:75, 3b1eb1af8eaae39f031cda54a6….jpg)
File: ad41055b0a40823⋯.jpg (Spoiler Image, 245.37 KB, 1073x748, 1073:748, 3460361e38d2e83eac4bd9e428….jpg)
>>13738122
They are Selvaria Bles and Aliasse from Valkyria Chronicles 1/2 and I want to fuck them.
e1d095 No.13738202
I'd resigned myself to there being no decent porn of her but with Perfect Chronology already released and coming out to the west soon too, there's finally a chance.
ecf999 No.13738476
>>13738110
Have you tried out VC3? It has an english patch that has everything translated but the DLC.
https://nicoblog.org/psp/valkyria-chronicles-3-extra-edition-english-patched/
On VC's plot though. The ending felt really rushed. Who in their right mind would sacrifice Selvaria when you know the enemy team has their own Valkyrie who are known to be invincible? If one of those got inside his massive ship/tank/train then he's immediately fucked even with his fake valkyrie form. It made no damn sense and the only reason I could imagine they thought this was okay was because they needed to rush the ending either due to funds or time.
>>13738155
>Tfw you will never fuck Selvaria's torpedo tits
91c399 No.13738541
>>13732763
That's SOP for Gust, my dude. Check out any of their Atelier games and you'll see the same. You can become a walking god with the customizing, but as a result the battles go from mildly entertaining to trivial to utterly pointless. One or two exceptions being DLC-ladden extra dungeons which honestly are little more than HP fights and spamming fast-turn items.
ea13eb No.13738554
File: ae61437b6bc0967⋯.jpg (Spoiler Image, 1.22 MB, 1000x1399, 1000:1399, ^167EAC23FC41E224B5D21E697….jpg)
>>13738476
They fucked the plot up, but I'm hoping they'll make a spin-off or something with Selvaria as the protagonist one day.
We'll save her.
As for VC3,
>looking for good PSP vidya one day
>check IGN's top games in a moment of boredom
>VC2 is there
>never heard of it, but the cover looks promising
>first game is on PS3 that I don't have, but there's an anime
>not really my thing but watch it anyway, it's all right
>play the second game
>find it hilarious and fun, it's my first encounter with the animu school setting
>there's a sequel that released a few months ago
>only in Japan
>try it anyway
>don't understand a single word, but the main interface and gameplay are the same
>poke around and slowly figure out how everything works
>spend over 200 hours playing all the DLC, side and EX-HARD missions
>another 50 or so on a second playthrough
I got the gist of the general plot, but nothing beyond that.
I definitely had fun, especially since it let me pick from such a huge cast of characters.
3b5408 No.13738558
JRPGs are at their best when they include lots of fun mechanics that allow you to influence your team in significant ways and think of new strategies to defeat enemies.
Monster catcher games are really good at this, that's why I prefer SMT games and Pokemon for it's multiplayer to other games of the genre although anything else that has original and refined turn based combat will do.
70c34a No.13738579
>>13733833
JRPGs are interactive anime.
Anyways there are two kinds of autism.
1 the gameplay autists- this group is very active on / v/
2 the story autists- a group I personally belong too and the intended audience of KTGust games
ecf999 No.13738706
>>13738579
Tales games seem to be the closest thing to interactive anime. From the way they look, the skits, the plot, and even the gameplay.
9cd827 No.13738790
>>13729726
The Nihon Falcom jrpgs (trails in the sky, trails of cold steel, etc.) at least make positioning an important aspect of combat. I'm playing through trails of cold steel now, and almost every attack has some degree of AOE, so you want to try to catch as many enemies as possible. On top of that, you can double team enemies if you hit them with the right weapon or skills, so there is a level of strategy in deciding who hits which enemy. the average mook is still pretty boring to fight (like in 90% of jrpgs, I have to agree), but the bosses are fun, because you have to take into account their AOE attacks, and position characters so that they are out of range.
As for other jrpgs: FF is boring, Bravely default is boring even with its gimmicks, pokemon is mindnumbingly easy with half a brain, smt gets boring fast (and the same goes for persona, but at least the bosses were fun in 5). the GBA golden sun games were also boring, but had the advantage of really flashy animations for the attacks - as an adult though, I haven't been able to get back into them because mechanically they are boring. for the most part I'd have to agree with you I guess, but if you wanted to try something a little different, check out trails in the sky, or trails of cold steel.
e685a4 No.13739167
>>13738554
>They fucked the plot up, but I'm hoping they'll make a spin-off or something with Selvaria as the protagonist one day.
The DLC for Valkyria Chronicles 1 has a whole campaign playing as her and her nation.
>>13736198
Why do SMT fans hate Persona? Is the RPG element too simple, or are the highschool antics take away too much time from the RPG?
91c399 No.13739175
>>13739167
Persona (at least P3 and on) is watered down. The gameplay is repetitive and simplistic as fuck. Or so I'm told—I have the Persona games and have yet to start them. I was way too busy with Devil Survivor. Holy fuck that game is amazing.
c27f84 No.13739191
>>13739167
>>13739175
>Is the RPG element too simple
>Persona (at least P3 and on) is watered down.
Mostly, yeah, from P3 onwards they took a lot of the advancements and refinements to the formula and streamlined them; compare Press Turn to One More!. There's also the sore spot for mainline fans that Persona essentially became so popular that by the time SMTIV rolled around they had forgotten how to make games using the old formula.
e685a4 No.13739204
>>13739191
And with how popular Persona 5 is odds are they won't distinguish it was popular for aesthetic instead of mechanics.
Interesting, thanks.
878dac No.13739210
>>13736386
>I don't think this is perfectly accurate, and if i'm wrong then name a JRPG that can be reasonably beat with no grinding.
Pokemon.
0a778f No.13739222
>>13734028
So the point in the genre is…?
91c399 No.13739239
>>13739204
Sega is also looking to jam Atlus development, as I recall hearing a few months back.
>>13739191
There is also the shitty waifu tendency pandering without any of the good aspects of the datesim formula (legit bad ends and also sex scenes).
e685a4 No.13739327
>>13739239
>Sega is also looking to jam Atlus development, as I recall hearing a few months back.
Why on earth would they want to fuck over people making them money?
Unless this is a Japanese business thing (you fucked us over 50 years ago, so now we fuck over you!)
4c8422 No.13739399
>>13738706
I haven't played Tales, but it surely can't beat Persona 4, in terms of interactive anime.
a393de No.13739474
>>13729726
>If there genuinely is any meaningful amount of thought, strategy, timing, awareness, or mental investment of any kind that goes into flailing your way through these combat systems I really don't see it.
there isn't because the people designing games don't actually understand game design, they are just programmers who happen to want to make games and will make them the only way they know how: by copying shit which has been successful before. this means endless clones of other jrpgs which also failed to understand what "strategy" and "decision-making" mean, and tack on millions of useless game mechanics in a futile attempt to create an illusion of gameplay.
>>13729755
pathetic
>>13736273
having 100%'d TitS i can say with the utmost certainty that TitS is shit. most of the trails series is shit in terms of gameplay. everybody plays it for the waifus or the story. the gameplay is a tedious annoyance that gets in the way of enjoying it, especially the tens of thousands of shitty monsters wandering around the world map just waiting to run up my asshole the moment i stand still and try to enjoy the scenery. field enemies are even more cancerous than random battles.
at least give me the ability to avoid fucking battles whenever i want, like bravely default, which lets you set the encounter rate, or breath of fire and etrian odyssey, which give you items and skills to lower/zero out the encounter rate.
ecf999 No.13740676
>>13739399
P4 would honestly be better as a visual novel. Besides that, I think Tales does a better job. You get tons of crazy attacks that have chuuni names combined with everyone even calling out their attack like some shonen anime. Skits are just optional cutscenes where the team talks to each other. Many have humor to them or a small detail about the character.
>>13739474
I'm assuming you're talking about the whole trilogy?
49c54f No.13740705
>>13739474
>Can't avoid battles in sky
There are multiple quartz with effects that make it completely trivial to avoid encounters. FC and SC had a quartz that makes enemies ignore you you could get fairly early on, and The 3rd had a quartz that straight up made normal enemies stop showing up. Not to mention that even if you do end up getting into a battle fleeing is guaranteed. Of all the complaints you could have about the games I can't comprehend why you think the prevalence of encounters is one.
ae72d9 No.13740743
>>13739167
Pretty much what >>13739191 said. the original SMT games weren't afraid to sucker punch the player or at least try to kill you. If you play the games in the order that they came out, you'll notice simplification of boss combat design and a general trend for lower difficulty and less deaths. Gone are the days of having to count turns, keep track of how much damage you've done or decipher enemy attack patterns through experimentation and observation. It's almost like Atlus is afraid of killing the player or making them think too hard.
They were once considered "that company that feeds on the tears of their players"
0705ce No.13740812
Play Lunar and Eternal Blue and come back, faggot. Enjoy your deserved bullying.
f4761c No.13741295
What are anons' opinions on SMT Soul Hackers?
8dfd33 No.13744092
>>13738790
It's just too bad that they feel the need to include broken shit like Delay effects in their games.