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/lit/ - Literature

Discussion of Literature

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Excelsior!

Sister site: [Fan-fiction]

File: 6bcc879632a441c⋯.jpg (98.18 KB,353x500,353:500,Tolstoy.jpg)

 No.15575

As soon as the art of the upper classes became separated from the art of the whole people, there arose the conviction that art can be art and yet be incomprehensible to the masses. As soon as this thesis was allowed, it inevitably became necessary to allow that art may be comprehensible only to a small number of the elect, and, finally, only for two, or one – a best friend, one’s own self. This is what modern artists say straight out: ‘I create and I understand myself; if others do not understand me, so much the worse for them.’

The assertion that art can be good art and yet be incomprehensible to a large number of people is so wrong, its consequences are so pernicious for art, and it is at the same time so widespread, so embedded in our notions, that no explanation of its utter incongruity can suffice.

Nothing is more common than to hear said of alleged works of art that they are very good but very difficult to understand. We are used to the assertion, and yet to say that a work of art is good but incomprehensible is the same as saying of some kind of food that it is very good but people cannot eat it. People may not like rotten cheese, putrid grouse and other such dishes appreciated by gastronomes with perverted taste, but bread and fruit are only good when people like them. It is the same with art: perverted art may be incomprehensible to people, but good art is always understood by everyone.

It is said that the best works of art are such that they cannot be understood by the majority and are accessible only to the elect, who are prepared to understand these great works. But if the majority do not understand, they must be given an explanation, the knowledge necessary for understanding. But it turns out that this knowledge does not exist, that the works cannot be explained, and therefore those who say that the majority do not understand good works of art give no explanations, but say that in order to understand one must read, look at, or listen to the same work over and over again. But this is not to explain, it is to make accustomed. And one can get accustomed to anything, even the worst. As it is possible to get people accustomed to rotten food, vodka, tobacco, opium, so it is possible to get them accustomed to bad art, which in fact is being done.

Besides, it cannot be said that the majority of people lack the taste to appreciate the highest works of art. The majority understand and have always understood what we, too, consider the highest art: the artistically simple narratives of the Bible, the Gospel parables, folk legends, fairy tales, folk songs are understood by everyone. Why is it that the majority suddenly lost the ability to understand the highest of our art?

____________________________
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 No.15576

One can say of speech that it is beautiful but incomprehensible to those who do not understand the language in which it is uttered. Speech uttered in Chinese may be beautiful and yet remain incomprehensible to me if I do not know Chinese, but a work of art is distinguished from all other spiritual activity in that its language is understandable to everyone, that it infects everyone without distinction. The tears, the laughter of a Chinese will infect me in just the same way as the tears and laughter of a Russian, as will painting and music, or a work of poetry if it is translated into a language I understand. The song of a Kirghiz or a Japanese moves me, though not as much as it moves the Kirghiz or the Japanese themselves. So, too, I am moved by Japanese painting and Indian architecture and Arabian tales. If I am little moved by a Japanese song or a Chinese novel, it is not because I do not understand these works, but because I know and am accustomed to higher works of art, and by no means because this art is above me. Great works of art are great only because they are accessible and comprehensible to everyone. The story of Joseph, translated into Chinese, moves the Chinese. The story of Shakya-muni moves us.82 The same is true of buildings, paintings, statues, music. And therefore, if art does not move us, one must not say that the cause is the spectator’s or listener’s incomprehension, but one can and must conclude that it is either bad art or not art at all.

The difference between art and mental activity, which requires preparation and a certain sequence of learning (so that one cannot teach trigonometry to someone who does not know geometry), is precisely that art affects people independently of their degree of development and education, that the charm of a picture, of sounds, of images infects any man, on whatever level of development he may stand.

The business of art consists precisely in making understandable and accessible that which might be incomprehensible and inaccessible in the form of reasoning. Usually, when a person receives a truly artistic impression, it seems to him that he knew it all along, only he was unable to express it.

And the best, the highest art has always been so: the Iliad, the Odyssey, the stories of Jacob, Isaac, and Joseph, the Hebrew prophets, the Psalms, the Gospel parables, and the story of Shakya-muni, and the Vedic hymns – all convey very lofty feelings, and in spite of that are fully understandable to us now, to the educated and the uneducated, and were understood by people of their own time, who were still less educated than our own working people. They talk of incomprehensibility. But if art is the conveying of feelings that arise from a people’s religious consciousness, how can a feeling based on religion – that is, on man’s relation to God – be incomprehensible? Such art must be, and indeed has always been, understandable to everyone, because each man’s relation to God is always the same. And therefore temples, and the images and singing in them, have always been understandable to everyone. The obstacle to understanding the best and highest feelings, as is also said in the Gospel, by no means lies in an absence of development and education, but, on the contrary, in false development and false education. A good and lofty artistic work may indeed be incomprehensible, only not to simple, unperverted working people (they understand all that is lofty) – no, but a true artistic work may be and often is incomprehensible to highly educated, perverted, religion-deprived people, as constantly occurs in our society, where people find the highest religious feelings simply incomprehensible. I know people, for example, who consider themselves most refined, and who say that they do not understand the poetry of love for one’s neighbour and of self-denial, or the poetry of chastity.

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 No.15577

Thus, good, great, universal, religious art may be incomprehensible only for a small circle of perverted people, but not otherwise.

It is impossible that art can be incomprehensible to the great masses only because it is very good, as artists of our time like to say. One should rather suppose that the great masses do not understand art only because this art is very bad, or even is not art at all. So that the most beloved argument naively accepted by the cultivated mob, according to which, in order to feel art, one must understand it (which, in fact, merely means get accustomed to it), is the surest sign that what is offered to our understanding in this way is either very bad, exclusive art, or is not art at all.

They say the people do not like works of art because they are unable to understand them. But if the work of art has the aim of infecting people with the feeling experienced by the artist, how then can we speak of incomprehension?

A man of the people reads a book, looks at a painting, listens to a drama or a symphony, and feels nothing. He is told that that is because he does not know how to understand it. They promise to show a man a certain spectacle – he comes in and sees nothing. He is told that that is because his sight has not been prepared for this spectacle. But the man knows that he can see everything perfectly well. And if he does not see what they promised to show him, he merely concludes (quite correctly) that those who undertook to show him the spectacle did not fulfil their undertaking. In the same way, and quite correctly, a man of the people draws conclusions about the works of art of our society, which do not call up any feelings in him. And therefore, to say that a man is not moved by my art because he is still very stupid, which is both very presumptuous and very brazen, is to pervert the roles and shift the blame from the sick head to the sound.

Voltaire said, ‘Tous les genres sont bons, hors le genre ennuyeux.’ With still greater right one may say about art, ‘Tous les genres sont bons, hors celui qu’on ne comprend pas’, or ‘qui ne produit pas son effet’, for what virtue is there in an object that does not do what it is meant to do?

But the main thing is that, once we allow that art can be art while being incomprehensible to certain people of sound mind, there is then no reason why some circle of perverted people should not create works that titillate their perverted feelings and are incomprehensible to anyone except themselves, and call these works art, which in fact is now being done by the so-called decadents.

The course art has been taking may be likened to placing on a circle of large diameter circles of smaller and smaller diameters, thus forming a cone the tip of which ceases to be a circle at all. This very thing has happened with the art of our time.

/lit/ btfo?

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 No.15586

tl;dr?

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 No.15588

>>15586

Elitism is bad, and to any extent modern art is gay. Which is correct.

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 No.15589

Art does not become easier to understand by changing the requirements from reading the author's mind to having feelings for people or God. In the first case at least there was only one to understand.

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 No.15591

Seems he's buttmad people aren't as religious as they used to be. I have to doubt "simple, unperverted working people" of today, or even of his time, would have understood or appreciated his examples of good art, but maybe he'd claim everyone except a certain class of religionists are perverted. Or maybe he would be glad, as most of high profile art certainly is understandable to the masses these days.

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 No.15597

File: be9ed1d1d48a764⋯.jpg (16.1 KB,300x400,3:4,thumbs-up.jpg)

>>15575

glad to read I'm on the same page as Tollers

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 No.15602

>>15588

Tolstoy is idealizing the masses, and I disagree that literature doesn't require some level of education. Moreover, people are slugs who wish not to be challenged, and Tolstoy praises these insects. It's sickening. Coincidentally, I recently searched for the top "Literary Fiction of 2018", and there was one prime thing I noticed these chosen author's were either female, non-white, immigrant, or a mixture of the two or all three. Second, I read a few pages on Amazon of a selection of these books and found nothing literary about them. They were written terribly; nothing scintillating about their prose or anything. They were undeserving of the denomination of "literary".

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 No.15608

>>15602

>Literature doesn't require some level of education

You're not wrong, you're just speaking for terrible or average books.

>Modern books are all terrible tripe written by hipster SJW's and similar types

I mean yeah, books have been like that for ages, that's why you don't need some level of education to read. :^)

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 No.15609

>>15608

>You're not wrong, you're just speaking for terrible or average books.

>I disagree that literature doesn't require some level of education.

I think you misread, but lately I feel as if I've lost a few IQ points, so comprehending things that normally would be clear is difficult.

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 No.15610

>>15609

Good books require some education.

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 No.15611

>>15610

So we don't disagree.

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 No.15614

>>15611

No probably not.

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 No.15754

>>15588

no its not, if you have something to gain from it.

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 No.15776

>>15575

I don’t get it

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 No.15778

Thanks Leo, you're a cool guy. Proving once again that /lit/ can't read:

>>15589

>>15591

>>15602

>>15776

and doesn't read:

>>15586

His personal religious views aside, as everything in that time was framed in Christianity, he is just saying that good art will have universal appeal. That isn't to say that it's simple or aimed at the lowest common denominator, but that it has something for everyone (e.g. a novel with romance, action, and intrigue like The Count of Monte Cristo), does not purposely offend the sensibilities of the common man (e.g. isn't draw in menstrual blood) and also doesn't sacrifice quality to be 2deep4u (hitler_jews_artschool_denied.jpg).

He is really just talking about kiked, "elitist" modern art and literature; you guys should recognize this. Some key take-aways:

>As soon as the art of the upper classes became separated from the art of the whole people, there arose the conviction that art can be art and yet be incomprehensible to the masses. As soon as this thesis was allowed, it inevitably became necessary to allow that art may be comprehensible only to a small number of the elect, and, finally, only for two, or one – a best friend, one’s own self. This is what modern artists say straight out: ‘I create and I understand myself; if others do not understand me, so much the worse for them.’

Slippery slope to modern art hell

> But it turns out that this knowledge does not exist, that the works cannot be explained, and therefore those who say that the majority do not understand good works of art give no explanations, but say that in order to understand one must read, look at, or listen to the same work over and over again. But this is not to explain, it is to make accustomed.

Not "education," like some of you were bitching about, but indoctrination, being one of the "in group."

>A man of the people reads a book, looks at a painting, listens to a drama or a symphony, and feels nothing. He is told that that is because he does not know how to understand it. They promise to show a man a certain spectacle – he comes in and sees nothing. He is told that that is because his sight has not been prepared for this spectacle. But the man knows that he can see everything perfectly well. And if he does not see what they promised to show him, he merely concludes (quite correctly) that those who undertook to show him the spectacle did not fulfil their undertaking. In the same way, and quite correctly, a man of the people draws conclusions about the works of art of our society, which do not call up any feelings in him. And therefore, to say that a man is not moved by my art because he is still very stupid, which is both very presumptuous and very brazen, is to pervert the roles and shift the blame from the sick head to the sound.

Look where we are. This should sound all too familiar.

Read the OP posts again. Keep your fedoras on and don't assume he's only talking about fine literature either.

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 No.15783

>>15778

>That isn't to say that it's simple or aimed at the lowest common denominator

Yes, he is. Because something that's incomprehensible to one person may not be incomprehensible to another; for example, reading and understanding Moby Dick is an undertaking that most regular people would find strenuous. That's what I mean by him idealizing the masses: he presumes that all great literature can immediately be understood by them by the mere fact that it may have universal qualities, like love, war, etc.

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 No.15788

>>15783

All great literature can be understood because it doesn't have those things.

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 No.15789

>>15788

No, it doesn't. Vocabulary and style can change whether something is comprehensible to the masses or not in spite of the universal qualities it may possess. Moby Dick is great literature and is difficult in comprehensibility.

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