No.13364
up /lit/. I read pics related, and while they were decent scifi adventure romps (Hyperion and The Fall of Hyperion, in contrast, were spectacular imo), the romance between the two main characters really stuck with me.
Since then, I've been wondering what other books, classic or modern, have a truly engaging love story.
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No.13366
>>13364
I enjoyed the romance because it was between an older guy like me and a 13 year old loli.
tbh Simmons is a shit writer
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No.13367
You liked The fall of Hyperion? I thought it was vastly inferior to Hyperion. Removing the short story structure of first book shows how Simmons can't plot out his story effectively, the reveal with the AI core is drawn out, the reveal with the Shrike and the arab dude's girlfriend is just strange and not particularly satisfactory, and most of the goals of the character's in the first book weren't solved to my satisfaction in the second. The one cool part that stuck out to me though was the priest dying and turning into the other priest.
To answer your question, Lolita.
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No.13369
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
Came across this interesting vid on what ‘Twilight’ would be like directed at men.
The guy who made it suggests ‘The Lost Boys’ (1987), but I think (the very underrated) ‘Near Dark’ (also from 1987), fits the bill even better.
I’ve been tempted to try my hands at writing a ‘Twilight’-esque romance for men, though started writing it as a lesbian romance (which I guess a lot, if not all) guys could get behind.
Is there even a market for paranormal romance directed at men? And what paranormal entities would men respond best to – werewolves, vampires, witches?
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No.13372
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No.13373
>>13367
I thought it was ok, good enough to read through as far as pulpy scifi adventure, but I totally agree. Nowhere near as good as either of the first two books, and it really didn't resolve them in a satisfying manner. But despite all that, as a self contained story I really liked the romance subplot that developed. Two people who end up fighting through hell and high water to see each other again.
>To answer your question, Lolita.
kek
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No.13374
>>13369
>Is there even a market for paranormal romance directed at men?
Every other anime is a fantasy romance aimed at men.
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No.13375
>>13372
The transparent, floating variant, or the physical Sixth Sense variant?
I can only think of a few instances of a ghost/human pairing, and of them only two that were handled well: the sorta romance in ‘Casper’ (1995) was (bitter-)sweet, the romance in ‘Goosebumps’ (2015) was interesting as well, and it had a happy ending to boot.
I am mostly familiar with the ghosts of M. R. James (& ‘The Stone Tape’), and they are not the kind of ghosts you’d want to romance…
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No.13376
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No.13378
>>13376
I reserve coffee enema for my erotic literature preferences, not romantic.
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No.13385
>>13375
The video said you need someone weak. Poltergeist and gimmicky magic are common to ghosts, and so are shyness and mystery. There might be a problem with the curing part.
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No.13388
>>13385
You could still have that with a witch or a vampire – if you go back and ignore the recent vampire tropes introduced in the late Victorian era and even later thru pop culture.
Most of the vampire tropes are actually introduced very late. The first time, I think, a vampire was killed by exposure to sunlight was F. W. Murnau’s ‘Noseferatu, eine Symphonie des Grauens’ from 1922. If you went back to the earlier vampire folklore, or even as late as J. Sheridan Le Fanu’s ‘Carmilla’ (1871-72), you could have a female vampire (a vampiress?), that lacked superhuman strength, but had the eternal youth mixed with the experience and mind of a mature woman (MILF). She could also rely more on seduction and psychological powers (hypnosis, mind-reading, reading feelings, telepathy, etc.) than physical strength. Carmilla is described as having a ‘rich complexion’, the pale vampires came later, when the deceased had their blood drained and replaced with formaldehyde before the funeral.
I think a male reader could respond well to a female vampire with eternal youth and the experience of a MILF, both of which (teens & MILFs) are popular searches with men on porn sites. One of the few things ‘Twilight’ did right, IMHO, was the setting – the small-town Pacific Northwest was very nice – now imagine a story set in a Twin Peaks-esque town, with interesting, somewhat Lynchian characters, and a weird new girl who catches the interest of Anon. You could even introduce ‘Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines’ like politics, with vampire families/clans/houses being rivals and feuding over territory (ie the right to prey upon the human population within a certain area).
In ‘Near Dark’ the male protagonist and his vampire love interest were turned back to humans thanks to a full blood transfusion. Maybe there is some mention of vampires being turned back into humans in folklore?
I remember reading an EC Comics horror story (a reprint of the classic 1950s comics), where a man fell in love with a mysterious woman who turned out to be a ghost, and ended up committing suicide so they could be together forever. The only instance I can think of where a ghost was brought back to life, was in ‘Casper’ (1995), where Casper’s father built a resurrection machine in the hope of bringing his son back to life.
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No.13406
>>13388
I guess the ghosts lack natural enemies and have no need for help.
I get the feeling the guy's plainness and lack of internal improvement would hurt in a complex pure romance, such as one with internal vampire politics. The obvious solution would be to give him something to do by making him a vampire hunter.
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No.13408
>>13406
A common trope with ghosts is that they remained because they have unfinished business – the protagonist might help her with this so she can finally cross over. Not much chance of an ‘and then they lived happily ever after’ ending in sight there though. As for enemies or antagonists, other ghosts or humans could fit that bill.
I agree on the protagonist. He should be given some characteristics IMHO – an interest or hobby (photography, music, writing). It would make it easier for the reader to relate with the protagonist, & perhaps something that could help him connect better to the love interest, (or other another character) – they share a bond, same interests & personalities.
The whole ‘opposites attract’ saying is just BS, so they should be on the same ‘level’ in some capacity, share something in common – perhaps he is into something she loved when she was alive?
Which setting would guys respond best to? High school/college, or young adulthood? The high school romance has been done to death in films & books, and I’m not sure a young adult male reader would prefer reading about a protagonist in his late teens. I certainly prefer my protagonists to be closer to my own age when it comes to romantic fiction.
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No.13412
>>13408
You can't really hide or defend from an invisible enemy. It doesn't feel like a ghost if it is constrained by rules or anti-supernatural organizations.
The additional motivation is to make the information from politics relevant. This might not matter as we're used to information proving itself irrelevant: the good guy wins hearts by trying to push them away and fights by getting angrier.
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No.13413
>>13412
You’ve got mediums/psychics who might pose a threat – they can possibly see ghosts (‘I see dead people’), and know their weaknesses. A human threat could also be something à la ‘Ghostbusters’ – people using technology to combat supernatural threats.
Also, it would depend on what type of ghosts we’re dealing with – a free-roaming spirit, or one that haunts a particular location.
A vampire family/clan would be like a mafia family – they form alliances and backstab and go to all out war against each other over territory.
Naturally they wouldn’t not greet the human protagonist with open arms when he starts dating one of their vampire females.
As the guy mentioned in the video, in the sequels the protagonist could make peace with the family/clan to fight some other threat; an enemy family/clan, or a human threat – With widespread surveillance, the gov’ment could be tracking vampires & neutralise them in top secret operations & raids.
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No.13418
YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.
>>13413
The thing is not that ghosts or vampires can't be opposed, it is that having a complex enemy will distract from the romance, and this is why having natural enemies is useful.
I liked how they did the ghost in the first season of Being Human. She learns to show herself, manipulate things, go outside, and finally take revenge.
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No.13420
Back when I still cared about Star Wars news, I listened to the ForceCast, and one of the hosts admitted to reading (and enjoying?) Twilight, calling it ‘Superman from the perspective of Lois Lane’ (paraphrasing).
Even if you switched the sexes of the characters, like Stephenie Meyer herself did in ‘Life and Death – Twilight reimagined’, wouldn’t guys rather want to be the heroic part, the protector who defends and helps the female love-interest?
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No.13426
>>13420
>>13369
I recently finished the audiobook version of Life and Death (listening to it in the background as I did other things), and while it wasn't the worst thing I've heard, it was quite obvious that it wasn't actually written for guys.
The protagonist had little to no agency, he was a wet blanket, and his romance with Edythe felt really forced and unnatural. Worst of all though, was the change at the end, where the protagonist is turned into a vampire and forced to leave his old life behind, letting his parents and friends think he is dead.
I think the story could have been saved with re-writes, especially if some of the ideas in StoryBrain's video had been implemented - Edythe being able to read his feelings, seeing his true love/intentions, as opposed all the other guys, etc.
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No.13448
Not books but "play" visual novels. Nakige is the romance type, utsuge is called the depressing type (always a sad romance in the latter, if any).
Look around and read those, they are basically short books with images and with different romance routes.
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No.13474
>>13448
Are there any decent to good visual novels with a Western art-style?
I can’t stomach the anime style, and the stereotypical Japanese plots and characters aren’t my cup of tea either.
>inb4 Unteralterbach
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No.13539
>>13474
Summertime Saga ;^)
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No.13865
>>13448
Nakige is just porn isn't it?
Most vn's have shit writing, a waste of a great medium, arguably the best.
>depth of books/text
>music and visuals to enhance atmosphere
>interactive choices
Wasted potential.
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No.13869
>>13865
VNs by nature treat plot and characters as essential and any activity by the player as secondary. There's no possibility for depth.
Pictures and sound are only good for describing simple things. Complex objects and events are best described in words. It's also harder to correct pictures, which is inevitable when making large areas or many choices.
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No.13877
>>13865
>Nakige is just porn isn't it?
You're thinking of nukige which are pornfests. Differentiated from eroge in that eroge have plot too. Nakige are VNs that are supposed to make you cry (literally it means "crying game").
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No.13901
>>13869
>VNs by nature treat plot and characters as essential and any activity by the player as secondary. There's no possibility for depth.
Just because almost all VNs have a generic self-insert protagonist doesn't mean it's inherent to the medium. Honestly, that's more of a problem with Japanese fiction in general than VNs specifically. There's plenty of room for depth if a writer is willing to break away from the typical tropes of the medium.
>Pictures and sound are only good for describing simple things. Complex objects and events are best described in words
The thing is, in every visual novel I've read, if you were to just take all the text from a single route and print it without visuals or sound, it would work perfectly well as a novel or short story (albeit often with script-style dialogue), since everything that's shown is also described in words. The visuals and sound in a VN are entirely supplementary to the text, and are never relied on to get anything across to the reader.
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No.13922
>>13901
Using plot and characters for themselves and not for the audience is necessary for any story focused fiction, of which VNs are one kind of. When there is nothing for the reader to accomplish, something common in literature, then each character does things to the best of his abilities. In a game, the player has advantages which guide him toward the end, so that characters are tools and obstacles. Playing a game while treating the events like those of static fiction makes no sense.
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No.13923
>>13922
Visual novels aren't games, though, and I think the fact that so many people think of them as games is holding the genre back. What they are is literary fiction with supplementary visuals and sound, which often have CYOA-style choices (plenty of them don't, they're called "kinetic novels"). All the "player" has to do is read and click through to the next paragraph (basically equivalent to turning a page). It's not necessary for him to have any obstacles or tools.
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No.13932
>>13865
Interactivity hinders storytelling most times, it's a crutch to capture people without any empathy or imagination skills.
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No.13949
>>13923
In literary fiction you can easily skip boring parts and go back if you think you missed something. Games don't necessarily need a way to go back because they can require you to understand the simple things before the complex.
Supplementary implies that either the pictures, the sound, or the text is redundant.
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No.13952
>>13949
>In literary fiction you can easily skip boring parts and go back if you think you missed something.
This is completely true of visual novels.
>Supplementary implies that either the pictures, the sound, or the text is redundant.
The visuals are redundant in VNs. Everything that's shown is also described in the text. And while I wouldn't necessarily call the music "redundant," it's definitely not necessary for getting anything across to the reader.
Have you ever actually read a visual novel? Song of Saya is pretty short if you need one to read quickly in order to actually know what you're talking about.
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No.13953
>>13952
this
Also, did anyone here play/read DDLC? I'm curious to see what you guys thought of it. I really enjoyed it because I enjoy psychological horror, and I also thought that there was something interesting in a new perspective on the format that I have rarely seen done before (probably because nips mostly make VNs and they don't like go meta or something like that), I've seen it called postmodern but I honestly don't know too much about postmodernism.
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No.13954
>>13952
Save/load is not a replacement for going to any page you want. It's even worse that typically the visuals are not redundant, but they are used so that the text can focus on the characters' ceaseless yapping.
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No.13955
>>13954
Out of all the criticisms for visual novels, this one seems pretty strange to me. How often when reading a linear literary fiction book do you feel the need to randomly skip around? Like, wouldn't that make the rest of the book not make sense/spoil random things? I mean, more power to you if you do that, but I don't really get it.
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No.13956
>>13955
Books contain pointless pages and chapters all the time.
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No.13957
>>13954
I wasn't talking about save/load. Pretty much every visual novel allows you to scroll back through text that you've already read past. Save/load is more like a bookmark.
>It's even worse that typically the visuals are not redundant, but they are used so that the text can focus on the characters' ceaseless yapping.
I'm talking about the medium itself, not typically bad writing. I completely agree that the writing is typically bad, and I think it's a waste of a medium that has some great potential.
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No.13960
>>13953
I just finished it. I enjoyed it.
Part of me wants to doubt your claim about nips since the plot feels very inspired by the first HakoMari book, but that didn't really have the "meta" element, so you still may be right.
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No.14004
>>13957
It's not the writing, it's that the intention of the writing is related to emotions and other personal things which the reader cannot participate in, no matter what they say about empathy for fictional things.
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No.14006
>>14004
I don't understand what your point is. How is that different from normal novels?
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