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/liberty/ - Liberty

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WARNING! Free Speech Zone - all local trashcans will be targeted for destruction by Antifa.

File: abcaca3f2d132d6⋯.jpg (753.21 KB, 2960x2960, 1:1, 1469346577614.jpg)

 No.92527

I decree today that life is simply taking and not giving

this country is mine, it owes me a living

 No.92544

File: 761d6d01faff2ed⋯.png (2.44 MB, 2765x1308, 2765:1308, ClipboardImage.png)

This unironically. If you don't think like that them you think like a slave.


 No.92548

File: 2465b6921f60385⋯.pdf (189.21 KB, Germà Bel - Nazi Privatiza….pdf)

>>92544

Seriously, this fucking paper? Germà Bel said himself that formal privatization does not necessarily mean substantial privatization, either. Not sure he made it explicit, but I actually think that he did. In any case, it is heavily implied.

To quote him:

>It is a fact that the Nazi government sold off public ownership in several state-owned firms in the mid-1930s. These firms belonged to a wide range of sectors; for example, steel, mining, banking, shipyard, ship-lines, and railways. It must be pointed out that, whereas modern privatization has run parallel to liberalization policies, in Nazi Germany privatization was applied within a framework of increasing state control of the whole economy through regulation and political interference.

>On one hand, the intense growth of governmental regulation of markets, which heavily restricted economic freedom, suggests that the rights inherent to private property were destroyed. As a result, privatization would be of no practical consequence, since the state assumed full control of the economic system.77 […] Guillebaud stresses that the Nazi regime wanted to leave management and risk in business in the sphere of private enterprise, subject to the general direction of the government.Thus, ‘the State in fact divested itself of a great deal of its previous direct participation in industry… But at the same time state control, regulation and interference in the conduct of economic affairs was enormously extended’.79

>With respect to his position regarding private ownership, Hitler explained that ‘I want everyone to keep what he has earned subject to the principle that the good of the community takes priority over that of the individual. But the state should retain control; every owner should feel himself to be an agent of the State… TheThird Reich will always retain the right to control property owners’. Another indication of Hitler’s position on state ownership of the means of production is found in Rauschning’s Voice of destruction, which reports the following answer by Hitler when questioned on socialization: ‘Why bother with such half-measures when I have far more important matters in hand, such as the people themselves?… Why need we trouble to socialize banks and factories? We socialize human beings’.103

>It seems clear that neither the Nazi Party nor Hitler was ideologically devoted to private ownership. In fact, Nazis used nationalization when they considered it necessary.The case of the nationalization of two aircraft companies, the Arado and Junkers firms, is widely known.104 AsWengenroth explains, ‘uncooperative industrialists such as the aircraft manufacturer Hugo Junkers were removed from their positions and replaced with Nazi governors. This was not an explicit nationalization policy, but simply an attempt to control production and investment policies in the interest of rearmament’.105 In fact, as stated by Overy, Hugo Junkers ‘refused to produce warplanes for Göering and found his business nationalized’.106

And about the Reichsbahn in particular:

>The state remained as the most important shareholder in Deutsche Reichsbahn, and retained full control of the company.

Concerning the banks:

>The state was involved in the reorganization of the sector after the bank crash in 1931 with an investment of about 500 million Rm., and most of the big banks came under state control, as noted in the introduction.54 Estimates made before the Banking Inquiry Committee in 1934 by Hjalmar Schacht, president of the Reichsbank and Minister of Economy, stated that around 70 per cent of all German corporate banks were controlled by the Reich.55 Through the Reichsbank or the Golddiskontbank, the government owned significant stakes in the largest banks:56 38.5 per cent of Deutsche Bank und Disconto-Gesellschaft (Deutsche Bank henceforth), 71 per cent of the Commerz- und Privatbank (Commerz-Bank henceforth), and 97 per cent of the capital of the Dresdner Bank.

The fact of the matter is that Germà Bel does not have the last word on the subject. He would not agree with von Mises' assessment that the Nazis were avowed socialists, but he would be even more wary of seeing them as fans of the free market. Ultimately, his paper is one piece of the puzzle, and if you use it as something more, then you haven't read it properly.


 No.92551

>>92548

This still does not make the third Reich government socialist or even Reform-Capitalist as the dominant mode of production remained capitalist in Nature


 No.92553

>>92551

Please go back to /leftypol/, I doubt anyone here is interested in your theories.


 No.92555

>>92551

How can it have a capitalist mode of production if there is was no private ownership of the means of production?


 No.92556

>>92555

Property owners generated profit by the selling of Commodities created with wage labor

that is a fundamental aspect of capitalism and not of socialism


 No.92557

>>92556

>>92555

Let me elaborate slightly further

The fact that Regulations may exist (And basically always have to some degree) on Capitalist enterprise does not prevent capitalist enterprise itself from being the dominant mode of economic production in a society


 No.92559

>>92556

>Property owners generated profit by the selling of Commodities with wage labor

Chartered companies did the same during the mercantilism era, but we do not call that capitalist, do we? You still have not even addressed the fact the there was no private ownership of the means of production in Nazi Germany. This alone fails the definition of the capitalist mode of production.


 No.92561

>>92557

It is not regulation that prevents an economic system from being termed capitalist. It is the existence of a planned or command economy.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/capitalism.asp


 No.92566

>>92556

>>92557

We simply go by different definitions of capitalism and socialism.

Capitalism, to us, is equivalent to the free market. A system where freedom of contract and property rights are abrogated, to us, is not capitalistic. It may be different for you, but that is of little concern to us. It's a semantic issue. What you call capitalism may not be what we defend. Suppose we have a state in which property is taxed at 90% and you have to get every transaction over 2000 dollars approved by an official. This may be capitalism according to you, but not to us. I suppose that even to you, that would not pass for a free market, however. So what we could do is to just say we're not capitalists anymore, only friends of the free market, and then we would proveed to have the exact same discussion as we would have if we had just overlooked the semantic issue.

Socialism, to us, meanwhile, is when an economy is managed by the state, not by private actors. I would also add that it must be managed for the good of the whole, at least in theory. What is of no concern to us is whether the production goods are managed by worker councils, by commissars of an unelected dictator, or by expert commissions set up by parliament. That's partially because we don't believe in any form of the volonté générale, so that "society" or "the workers" owning something cannot actually mean anything, it's really ownership by someone pretending to be agent of a non-existant, fictional principal.

Nazi Germany, then, was not capitalist, because the state arrogated to itself the prerogative of taking your property from you or managing it for you, and it did exercise that prerogative quite frequently. It wasn't fully socialist either, because it did allow private ownership unless decreed otherwise. Capitalism and socialism are ideal types, and no society ever embodies them fully. Even Ancapistan will not be fully capitalist, as crime will happen, and even Red Cambodia was not fully socialist, as it had a black market. If we only look at what lawfully happens in an economy, then Ancapistan might, theoretically, be fully capitalist, whereas a society with no private property whatsoever is incredibly hard to imagine. If we include self-ownership, then total socialism is flat-out impossible, period.


 No.92570

>>92557

>>92556

>>92551

Nobody cares about how you personally define socialism and capitalism. Socialism is when government does stuff and capitalism is when it doesn't, now fuck off.


 No.92571

File: 2e7146f1109065d⋯.png (220.33 KB, 1000x1500, 2:3, 1520388394893.png)


 No.92580

>>92566

>no self-ownership is possible

it's called death. With no humans left, communism has accomplished its logical end.


 No.92586

>>92571

>naziball talks about race

>lolbertardianball talks about muh economy

>lobertarian compliments nazis

>naziball sudently becomes commie

eric, simply eric

everyone knows that rules about taxes matter and are important


 No.92593

File: 8848c917930c263⋯.png (95.64 KB, 500x500, 1:1, b34b6187efcf2f82cb24335dee….png)

>>92544

If the old nat-socs were actually capitalists, then why do modern neet-socs hate capitalism, and act like leftists in every way, except when it comes to borders, race, and things like traditionalism?

Why do modern neet-socs kvetch about:

>the shackles of capitalism!

>the economy doesn't serve the nation!

>Hitler wanted to give every family a VW, but the big bad allied powers started bullying poor Germany

Etc…


 No.92599

>>92561

>Planned economy isn't capitalist

Yes. But

A. It isn't inherently socialistic either

B. Germany's economy only became planned by the state in a significant way during WW2 (What most states regardless of economic model usually do in wartime) up until then Germany maintained a Market economy with a Buisness class in the period between 1933-1939

>>92593

During the Interwar period and the Second World War Facism (Just gonna generalise all the meme ideologies) was used to maintain the power of the capitalist class in Nations mainly strikes with large popular support for socialism (Germany Italy Spain etc) this the paying of lip service to Marxist Rhetoric

But after 1945 and the beginnings of the second red scare the number of Western Marxists began an almost precipitous fall thus Facism became less focused on finding "The third position" and became more open about its goal of preserving capitalism


 No.92600

File: 49d2b846dd29d3f⋯.jpg (49.36 KB, 419x472, 419:472, 49d2b846dd29d3f00ee49a39a3….jpg)

>>92593

Can someone besides a nigger answer my question?


 No.92601

Invidious embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>92551

>>92556

>>92557

>>92599

>it's another "not real socialism guiz" thread


 No.92603

File: 08e636ec112464b⋯.webm (578.66 KB, 640x360, 16:9, Numbers.webm)

>>92600 (checked)

>>92593

>If the old nat-socs were actually capitalists, then why do modern neet-socs hate capitalism, and act like leftists in every way, except when it comes to borders, race, and things like traditionalism?

Old Nat-Socs weren't really capitalist by any reasonable measure. Memes of production were nominally privately owned but the sheer number of regulations involved and special favors/bribes given to Party officials meant it may as well be socially owned, because the "owners" were either agents of the state or puppets of it. NEETSocs don't see this because they're economically illiterate, and think they've discovered some magical "third way" that isn't capitalism but takes the best parts of either ideology. But they aren't centrists though, centrists are cucks and totally small-brain compared to Third Way™ alt-centrism! The only reason people like >>92544 suggest that the NSDAP were pro-business at all is to try and convince themselves of their own "nazis weren't real socialist" meme.


 No.92605

>>92586

Poor spacing on my part. The only thing ancap says is "So you agree that freedom is a goal worth pursuing?". Everything else is the nazi.


 No.92611

>>92599

>It isn't inherently socialistic either

Just because it is not socialist, does not mean it is capitalist

>Germany's economy only became planned by the state in a significant way during WW2

What is the Weimar Republic?


 No.92612

>>92599

Read this: >>92566


 No.92616

File: 4d7b0c7677e819d⋯.png (232.81 KB, 1000x1500, 2:3, 2e7146f1109065dfb9859e3987….png)


 No.92617

>>92601

this was great.




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