/liberty/ - Liberty

>why do you care about freedom so much but you don't care about justice?

I care about both. I see no contradiction in pursuing both.

>>88495

>why do you care about freedom so much but you don't care about justice?

There's nothing just about stealing property from people because you are envious of them.

>it's not fair, for example, that some people are born poor and others are born rich.

You're assuming the economy is a zero-sum game, but this isn't the case; there's a reason healthy economies grow every year. People having money does not prevent others from gaining it, for a variety of reasons, the foremost of which is that you will always own, and be able to profit from, the productive capital of your own body. Being rich doesn't even guarantee that you'll stay rich: if money is all you need to be successful, why do lottery winners so consistently spend all of their money within a year? Same things happens with so-called "old money," if they don't know how to manage it they lose it all.

>I think caring only about freedom shows a bad quality in a human being.

Caring about freedom implies caring about everything else, because you can't do any of the things you care about without having the liberty to do them. So, logically, we must put freedom before other things, because the other things are impossible without freedom.

semi-polite sage because QTDDTOT, and probable troll.

>>88495

>you don't care about justice

We do care. Always have.

>it's not fair, for example, that some people are born poor and others are born rich.

We have no means to justify any action we would take to equalize the playing field. We don't get to decide what cosmic justice is because none of us are gods.The justice we deal in is justice within voluntary human sentient action. Non-sentient forms can not be just or unjust as we have no means to hold them accountable. The success of one's parents and the failure (or misfortune) of others is not something we have objective means to decide. Any "allowable" threshold enforced would be completely arbitrary. Arbitrary law has no justification to be upheld besides the might of the moment making it right.

Freedom is the basis of justice. Anything that infringes upon it is unjust.

>>88498

Could be troll. The spacing is kind of annoying and the accusations a bit broad, but there's room for discussion. There's a lot we have to assume ourselves in order to start arguing. At least he did follow up his statement with why he thinks it to be true. Though now both sides have to define what they mean by "justice" before anything not worth sage-ing to hell can come out of it.

>>88495

Define "Justice"

>it's not fair, for example, that some people are born poor and others are born rich.

Many poor kids don't stay poor and many rich kids don't stay rich, socioeconomic determinism is a myth.

>>88495

>it's not fair, for example, that some people are born poor and others are born rich.

Why is it not fair though? Being poor or rich is the result of various simple games/decisions that lead up to the end point. It just looks complex because you don't look at all the sacrifices or repeated generations lead to the better result.

>>88505

Unfortunately being born rich or poor leads to different treatment under the law, which I opppose.

>>88495

>why do you care about freedom so much but you don't care about justice?

Loaded question.

>it's not fair, for example, that some people are born poor and others are born rich.

Doesn't make it unjust. No one is committing an injustice against someone who is born with no legs or with a highly reduced IQ. That may be "unfair", but it's not unjust. Being hit by lightning, likewise, is no injustice. Neither is it injustice if I find a gold ingot lying around somewhere.

There was a story about a world in which intelligent children were implanted with devices that shocked them every fifteen seconds, to bring them down to the baseline. Beautiful girls were disfigured so they would not be more attractive than their peers. That's what your logic leads to.

>I think caring only about freedom shows a bad quality in a human being.

And I think that I'm in no mood to take shit from a commie, not today. There is no atrocity that wasn't committed by communist regimes. In Romania, they murdered unsuspecting workers by pumping them full of x-rays. Yet our love of freedom shows a "bad quality"?

>>88522

So do we.

>>88495

Fuck off, nigger.

>>88530

sage denied

>>88498

No one said 'because you are envious of them'. The reason would be to create justice.

>>88498

Saying it's not fair some are born rich / others poor doesn't imply a zero-sum gain in the economy.

>>88499

>Non-sentient forms can not be just or unjust as we have no means to hold them accountable.

That doesn't seem true to me, you can hold them against the same standard you would hold a sentient body. The universe, for example, would be a just universe if it punished the guilty and spared the innocent, would it not?

>>88558

>you can hold them against the same standard you would hold a sentient body

We can't hold matter legally responsible. Pointing at the sun angrily won't make it shine just right. Punishing people instead to equalize down, instead of up, makes it progressively worse. If we can't make it better we try to not make it worse.

>The universe, for example, would be a just universe if it punished the guilty and spared the innocent, would it not?

It would if it did. We're not "The Universe". There's nothing in us that can elevate us to a status of cosmic omniscience save for someone going insane. That's the whole point of limiting force. We do not judge more than we possibly can. Not one individual, or even a group, can justify a right to judge on such a scale. Anyone can be arbitrary.

>>88495

>it's not fair, for example, that some people are born poor and others are born rich.

http://time.com/money/3925308/rich-families-lose-wealth/

> 70% of wealthy families lose their wealth by the second generation, and a stunning 90% by the third

The most destructive thing you can do to someone is give them everything they ask for.