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/liberty/ - Liberty

Non-authoritarian Discussion of Politics, Society, News, and the Human Condition (Fun Allowed)
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WARNING! Free Speech Zone - all local trashcans will be targeted for destruction by Antifa.

File: 42be0dc97827b08⋯.jpg (62 KB, 653x490, 653:490, IMG_2123.JPG)

 No.84078

Only real men and people of good character want freedom. Parasites, retards and losers want totalitarianism.

 No.84112

where are the proofs?


 No.87912


 No.87956

File: bfa2a2e615a8950⋯.webm (4.4 MB, 478x360, 239:180, Encirclement - Neo-Libera….webm)

Market totalitarianism.


 No.87964

File: 7b5b27a0cbf87eb⋯.jpg (153.01 KB, 680x1020, 2:3, 7b5b27a0cbf87eb7a295603013….jpg)

>>84078

Property rights are just totalitarianism made moral. Absolute authority over ones property.


 No.87965

File: 6b7effb81faa1a2⋯.jpg (208.21 KB, 1152x648, 16:9, 1355171433585.jpg)

>>87964

Get the fuck out.


 No.87970

File: b16a38c8215c0af⋯.png (1.36 MB, 1920x1080, 16:9, Space Capitalism.png)


 No.87972

>>87970

>trad

>capitalism

what the fuck

are you illiterate?


 No.87984

>>87972

>some people like tradition and are willing to pay for it if need be

>but capitalism can't possibly be trad


 No.87986

File: ab0cdd1cfc502ee⋯.jpg (157.16 KB, 1200x800, 3:2, DWUw9veW0AAPSqt.jpg)

>>87970

>>87965

I am pro property tho


 No.87987

>>87972

Capitalism is the natural order of things, how is that not traditional?


 No.87993

>>87972

"Classical" liberals.

>>87987

As natural as plastic.


 No.87994

File: 57f7e31e6d44393⋯.png (568.74 KB, 500x775, 20:31, soldier of disgust.png)

>>87993

>private property and human nature aren't "natural"

Fuck off, commie.


 No.88001

>>87984

Capitalism is the most progressive force known to us in this universe. It destroyed more traditions and culture than any postmodernist could ever dreamt of.


 No.88002

>>87994

If it is held that man is “by nature” an uninventive tribesman and an inventive businessman, a submissive slave and a proud craftsman an independent hunter and a dependent wage-worker, then either man’s “nature” is an empty concept, or man’s “nature” depends on material and historical conditions, and is in fact a response to those conditions.


 No.88003

>>87987

Is being eaten alive by wolves traditional?


 No.88008

>>87987

Capitalism is an independent system not based on tradition of conservatism. There is no "traditional capitalism" or "green capitalism" or whatever ideology you try to insert there. You can be whoever you want in capitalism, but it odes not mean that it has anything to do with capitalism itself. Any attempts to mix different ideologies will either lead to the decay or domination of the least productive and efficient, depending on the devotion and power of its followers to it.


 No.88010

File: 5fa195c3359b6f8⋯.png (273.51 KB, 1379x487, 1379:487, pol civil war genocide lef….png)


 No.88015

File: 1c83f7ee486c4d3⋯.jpg (10.9 KB, 181x279, 181:279, start arguing anytime.jpg)

>>88002

>shitty, out of context quote with no explanation or justification


 No.88017

>>88015

>People used to own shitty tents and this is the same thing as owning abstract structures like corporations.


 No.88021

>>87994

Private property; the concept that a person can own vast and multiple plots of land, subterranean, and airspace included, because of a legal document.

You seem to be implying lawyers are a naturally occurring species, or perhaps that there is a god who has imbued them with special powers of arbitration.

>>88015

This is not an argument.

I don't even know who the quote is from, but it's correct. See if you can refute it.


 No.88022

>>88021

Claiming ownership of shit is pretty damn intrinsic to human nature; if you object to some of the more sophisticated ways ownership is claimed because you can't read and it hurts your fee-fees I really don't give a shit.

>See if you can refute it.

What's there to refute? It's just a series of dubious truisms, with no support of claims and no logical implications.


 No.88026

>>88022

>Claiming ownership of shit is pretty damn intrinsic to human nature

Needing and claiming something that is simply there and you have the power to claim it, is pretty fundamental to PERSONAL property. No lawyer need be invented, Bucky.

Have you read Stirner?

>if you object to some of the more sophisticated ways ownership

Hahahaha.

Threats of murder and torture at the end of a blade or a barrel of a gun; sophisticated. Haha

Oh but you must mean the layers of bullshit propaganda we've been coated with over the millennias. Convincing people that they're free but have to get back to work for a fraction of the game tokens value or else they can just go fuck off and die, is a pretty neat trick.

I suppose you're an owner of some pizzeria chain and don't have to work for a living.

Stupid liberals.

>It's just a series of dubious truisms, with no support of claims and no logical implications.

Not an argument.

Pretend I'm dumb and explain how you can dismiss it.


 No.88036

File: 5b1db006a1ee5f9⋯.mp4 (1.13 MB, 480x360, 4:3, Unmistakably an AK-47.mp4)

>>88026

There is no such thing as "PERSONAL" property, it's essentially an arbitrary distinction for various anti-property philosophies which essentially boils down to "I approve of you owning this!". It means nothing and reading all the stirner in the world doesn't really change that.

It's amusing that at the end of your post you insinuate that he's just going to write you off as stupid without reason but this whole post just showcases why doing so is really the best thing to do for the sake of sanity.Just look at this:

>Threats of murder and torture at the end of a blade or a barrel of a gun; sophisticated. Haha

Who made this argument? Might doesn't make right, the state being able to commit violence against most of the population successfully doesn't mean they own the property at all. If you own property and someone commits acts of aggression on it, you certainly have the right to take action against it and kick him off your property or even use violence if need be. Notice that violence is not an inherent part of owning property, anymore so than violence is an inherent in self-ownership over one's body, rather it is a rightful response of the owner towards other environmental entities that may disrupt and commit aggression towards the individuals property (in the same way that acts of aggression against one's body gives him the legitimate right of self-defense). However the ability to commit violence in of itself is not an appropriate criteria to determine whether one owns a resource or not and that's certainly not the argument that he even made.

The rest of your post, much like what you've written before, is just bunch of nonsense arguments that we've seen on this board over and over.

> Convincing people that they're free but have to get back to work for a fraction of the game tokens value or else they can just go fuck off and die, is a pretty neat trick.

This part of the argument hinges at two separate topics: the first is the question of being free but having to work (which is seen as oppressive) and the second is the implication of "surplus value".

Freedom does not mean that you have a right to everyone else's resources, that's just blatant power and it's essentially slavery in it's own right. If you don't want to work, you have the right not to but not at the expense of other people, their time, or their resources. Secondly, surplus labor, or surplus value, simply doesn't exist, it's an outdated economic concept. Value is not an objective or intrinsic thing within products, goods or services, rather it is a subjective thing, reliant on how much the individual values said thing or if he even values it at all. >inb4 prices are proof of objective value

pls don't.

Making rhetorical and practically emotional statements that don't actually have that much in the way of logical thinking to them is a pretty cool trick.

>Pretend I'm dumb and explain how you can dismiss it.

I don't think anyone has to pretend if I'm honest.


 No.88037

>>88036

>There is no such thing as "PERSONAL" property, it's essentially an arbitrary distinction for various anti-property philosophies

It's a definition. It isn't anti-property, it's anti-law, anti-state. It's freedom.

Read Proudhon, Stirner, de Clerye


 No.88038

There's no such thing as a liquid, it's essentially an arbitrary distinction from solid.


 No.88039

File: 86d16922fa6b0e7⋯.jpg (40.25 KB, 500x375, 4:3, Fuck off please.jpg)

>>88037

>It's a definition. It isn't anti-property, it's anti-law, anti-state. It's freedom.

No it isn't, again, personal property (as conceptualized by the very people you list) is just an attempt to make distinctions between various forms of private property as to what is (in a way) legitimate and what is not, but of course it does so based on entirely arbitrary criteria (me hiring someone to help me out at my fruit garden suddenly means that my garden is no longer 'personal property'). It's not really a definition nor is it freedom in any actual conceivable way, but is definitely quite anti-property. Saying you're only "anti private property" doesn't really change that, it just proves the point even further.

>Read Proudhon, Stirner, de Clerye

If I wanted to get a lobotomy then I'd just find some way to contract black market doctor to rob me of my money and a good portion of my capacity for basic mental functioning.

In all seriousness, this is a weak response. It's SJW "It's not my job to educate you tier", I'm aware of their arguments (less so with de Clerye) and that's how I know it's a bunch of shit.

Another thing to keep in mind is that this is the fucking internet, let's say I didn't know what your argument or what the argument of the people you listed was, do you seriously think I'm going to read a series of manifestos by a bunch of retards from 200-some years ago just to get to the crux of your argument? The answer of course is no, that's why ideally you'd present their arguments against mine and the works that influence my arguments. Could you imagine if every post made in an argument was just "read marx" or "read rothbard"? At that point it's not even a fucking argument anymore, it's just a glorified internet gish galloping card game but instead of Chinese cartoons that at least have cool art it's a bunch of economic, political and historical works, essays and manifestos that don't mean anything to the people who probably won't bother reading them.

>>88038

Nah, it's more like if I took a solid piece of metal for what it was, but then the minute you started heating it up and throwing liquid on it to see it become vapor I suddenly started stating that is no longer a solid but rather a "private solid" due it's capacity to produce vapor. Nice try though.


 No.88041

>>87964

Human rights are just totalitarianism made moral. Absolute authority over ones body.


 No.88042

>>88039

<Suggested reading

>If I wanted to get a lobotomy then I'd just find some

It wont melt your mind to read a little, it will inform. This isn't a cult thing.


 No.88047

Property doesn't exist. If you claim to own something, what validates it? Then does that validation superceed my ability to shoot you and take it?


 No.88049

>>88042

>It wont melt your mind to read a little, it will inform

If you can't make a convincing argument without relying on your socialist mascots to do it for you your argument really isn't sound.


 No.88051

File: 5d1f04f24c56005⋯.png (43.96 KB, 287x287, 1:1, holden_stirnerfield.png)

>>88041

Morality, totalitarianism, and rights are the same thing.


 No.88052

>>88047

True.


 No.88066

>"Libertarians" want freedom from government oppression

>But they still want you to pay the paychecks of the police that will smash down your door and kidnap or murder you if you do something they don't like (in this case, violating someone's property rights)

This is not a consistent viewpoint. Either your property is limited by your personal ability to enforce it (including paying someone to protect it for you), or believe in coercing people at gunpoint into agreeing with your opinions.


 No.88073

>>88021

>Private property; the concept that a person can own vast and multiple plots of land, subterranean, and airspace included

Nope. Private property is the group of productive developments on those lands, and not the land themselves. It is assumed that the land is property because it is very difficult to separate the land from the productive elements.

>lawyers are a naturally occurring species

How is this relevant? You don't need lawyers in a capitalist system.


 No.88074

>>88026

>PERSONAL property

If you are not allowed to rent out one's own capital, then you do not control it and thus it is not property.

>explain how you can dismiss it.

Hitchen's razor:

"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"."


 No.88091

File: 309f09594f21a36⋯.jpg (379.35 KB, 1662x1080, 277:180, Henri-Cartier-Bresson-2.jpg)

>>88049

>If you can't make a convincing argument without relying on your…

<…source material…

Such a big brain. Ooo.

>>88073

Lawyers are *not* a naturally occurring species.

>You don't need lawyers in a capitalist system.

HAAA HAHAHAHAHAHA

>>88074

>Rent

As long as there's been money, people rent. So?

I advocate a world where we don't use money, because we don't need it, rich people need it to support classism and the impoverished workforce that supports them at the top. In that world, you would just share a space, a room or whatever instead of renting it.

Apply Hitchen's razor to the "dubious truism" here >>88002


 No.88129

File: 4a6acbe960cdad6⋯.jpg (39.39 KB, 500x375, 4:3, cuck.jpg)

>>88042

> missing the whole point over a line of banter

> coming back with banter this bad.

> lobotomies melt the brain

I wouldn't even be mad if the banter was at least a little okay, the point is don't pull a "educate urself pls", either propose the arguments themselves or just fuck off back to reddit.


 No.88185

>>88091

>Apply Hitchen's razor to the "dubious truism

The quote provided no evidence to its assertion.




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