/liberty/ - Liberty

>>83982

>>84010

This is the power of the means of production cappie.

>>84027

>>84028

The thing is China doesn't look like it's moving towards a laissez-faire Hong Kong model, and a good part of their astounding growth so far isn't genuine. It's just a Keynesian boom, an artificial, nonproductive growth caused by the Chinese government continuing to invest in projects whether or not they go anywhere. There are entire blocks of Chinese cities that are populated with very pretty-looking office buildings, but they're empty–at night, these places look like ghost towns. They've kept ahead of the curve so far with their devalued currency, but that will only be useful to a point, and is actively hurting the Chinese with regards to their ability to import. And on top of all that there's the fact that China is a really shitty marketplace to work in.

Now, I'm not saying China is irrelevant. Even after that bubble pops they still have a strong manufacturing base, and they're still in a position to export all over the world. But they aren't nearly as looming as they seem, and that advantage will only decrease over time, because changes in technology mean that having more bodies to throw at a problem isn't the uncounterable power play that it once was.

>>84031

That's why you have the world's largest army ready to massacre the population in case they ask for better conditions.

>>84031

>Mfw I want this to be /liberty/'s local China hate thread

habeeb it

>>84059

>Amerifat can't accept that the chinks beat him at his own game

Hope you enjoy getting over run with 3rd world welfare dependents while China continues to expand as the worlds largest Economy.

>>84061

>>Amerifat can't accept that the chinks beat him at his own game

What in the fuck are you talking about you dolt? Virtually everything that's wrong with the United States in terms of the economy is practically ten times worse within China, whereas the United States has issues with subsidizing businesses and corporatism, China has issues with the state practically OWNING businesses and corporatism would be a polite way of describing a situation that somehow manages to be worse than the word would entail. Mind you that's not even going into the subject of the massive amounts of malinvestment in the Chinese economy which WILL lead to bubbles whether you'd like to admit so or not.

> 3rd world welfare dependents

China itself is en masse a giant landmass filled with virtually 3rd world tier morons and other such filth. One doesn't have to look further than how they treat each other or even how backwards most of the country is. Who are you fooling?

> worlds largest economy

Oh boy oh boy, next you'll be telling me that India will be a superpower by 2020. Never mind that their infrastructure is shit, their products are by and large poorly made, that the government tries its hardest to pretty much shit all over any real prosperity within the country and that the only reason they even have a remotely functioning economy is because around the 70s and 80s (as the Chinese economy began progress towards liberalizing) a good chunk of American businesses decided that the generalized crappy quality was worth the price due to how cheap labor was.

Seriously, how delusional are you anon?

>>84062

> Virtually everything that's wrong with the United States in terms of the economy is practically ten times worse within China

And yet America is faltering while China expands. Funny.

>China itself is en masse a giant landmass

Oh not! Its BIG! Thats horrible!

>3rd world tier morons and other such filth

Higher average IQ than the United States.

>or even how backwards most of the country is

They are so backwards with their hyper industry and modern mega cities.

>next you'll be telling me that India will be a superpower by 2020

I doubt it but if the west continues its current trajectory we may have a shitty future. Atleast India has nukes and a space program unlike most European countries.

>Never mind that their infrastructure is shit

You talking about China or America here?

>remotely functioning economy is because … was worth the price due to how cheap labor was

Its almost like they decided to open themselves up to capitalism and it worked! Unlike the USA where welfare spending grows every day with more and more regulation.

Just compare Beijing or any of China's other hyper modern cities to the crumbling shit like New York and Chicago.

reposting from another thread

>>84083

>tfw china is more free than we are

>>84063

>And yet America is faltering while China expands. Funny.

Progressing from a third world communist shithole to a somewhat functional country in a matter of thirty years is impressive, but it's still shit and looking at the way that government is treating the economy it will remain that way, that's the problem. America's version of "faltering" would be China's version of almost unimaginable absolute success.

>Oh not! Its BIG! Thats horrible!

Are you actually that fucking stupid that you just decided to treat this part of the sentence as an argument in of itself?

>Higher average IQ than the United States.

They sure do have an interesting way of showing it, which is to say that they're not very good at using whatever intelligence they have.

>They are so backwards with their hyper industry and modern mega cities.

What the fuck are you talking about? No, it's backwards because most of the country is still villages and backwater shitholes. Are you seriously that fucking stupid that you think Beijing somehow represents the entire country? Are you legitimately fucking stupid?

>I doubt it but if the west continues its current trajectory we may have a shitty future. Atleast India has nukes and a space program unlike most European countries.

> the measure of a super power is nuclear weapons and a shitty space program

So America's still number one then? Ayyy

>Its almost like they decided to open themselves up to capitalism and it worked! Unlike the USA where welfare spending grows every day with more and more regulation.

Again, you are aware that the issues that plague the United States are usually just as prevalent if not worse in China, right?

>Just compare Beijing or any of China's other hyper modern cities to the crumbling shit like New York and Chicago.

You have to be a chink to be this retarded. "hyper modern cities"? Did you see photos of Beijing from afar and decided that the colors were so nice that it was somehow impressive? Then Chicago must be fucking amazing! Beijing barely even compares to most of New York let alone Chicago. For fucks sake, if you at least mentioned Shanghai then I'd take you somewhat seriously but even then it would have a hard time competing with Chicago.

Jesus Christ anon, pull it together

>>84092

Something all soyboys automatically do isn't a meme.

Making fun of it is.

>>84094

>move to the east.

>>84094

>Our friend the amerifat is back!

Speak of the devil and he shall appear my chink friend.

>Biggest economy in the world

By what measure? GDP? Trade?

> most modern cities

You mean the ones that no one lives in? What the fuck does this even mean, "modern cities"? Are most people in civilized countries just living in medieval cities then? are you implying that it has the most cities? What the fuck are you trying to say?

>forming many colonies in other parts of the world

How is this exactly a point that proves it's not shit? So Chinese businesses are buying African land and this is colonization now?

>You were using it as one to make what you thought was a point.

Holy shit, you are actually fucking stupid?

>They are exploiting it better than the USA is their own intelligence.

The way this sentence was arranged is too good. It's like a self-detonation. I get what you're trying to say but holy shit lad please make SOME attempt to speak correctly.

>By land mass. If you think a normal distribution across the entire surface area of a country is required you are retarded.

When the fuck did I say that? Your argument doesn't even make any sense. I love how I mention the word "landmass" once as a part of an insult regarding China and all of a sudden you clutch on to this as if it's somehow relevant to the conversation at hand.

The point in question is that most of the POPULATION still lives in shit, it's not a matter of landmass, that's hardly inherently valuable, it's a matter of numbers and the numbers do show that the vast majority of China, by population not by landmass, still lives in absolute shit, some of which barely living on scraps.

This is the "I don't give enough of a shit to actually make a table" table. The subject is Chinese populations and the wealth of each province (mind you, this means that Hong Kong and other principalities are not included). On the left is their ranking in terms of wealth (and this is based off of the average disposable income per capita) and to complement it is the province's population. The point at which it drops below ten on the list is essentially where disposable income becomes hardly feasible for a good or what could be considered a normal living standard within the United States and most of the Western world, it's essentially where everything turns to shit fast and we progress from first world to second and third world in an almost rapid pace. Let's get started.

6 Guangdong (113 million)

24 Henan (99 million)

9 Shandong (92 million)

23 Sichuan (87 million)

5 Jiangsu (75 million)

19 Hebei (68 million)

13 Hunan (67 million)

17 Anhui (65 million)

12 Hubei (60 million)

25 Guangxi (49 million)

3 Zhejiang (47 million)

28 Yunnan (44 million)

18 Jiangxi (43 million)

8 Liaoning (42 million)

29 Guizhou (39 million)

16 Heilongjiang (38 million)

22 Shaanxi (37 million)

7 Fujian (35 million)

20 Shanxi (33 million)

11 Chongqing (31 million)

14 Jilin (27 million)

30 Gansu (26 million)

10 Inner Mongolia (24 million)

26 Xinjiang (20 million)

1 Shanghai (18 million)

2 Beijing (16 million)

4 Tianjin (12 million)

15 Hainan (8 million)

21 Ningxia (6 million)

27 Qinghai (5 million)

31 Tibet (3 million)

Since chinks love math, I figured I'd include some so the message can get through that thick mongoloid skull of yours. Two things can be derived here in regards to the argument; there are about 474 million people living on average with fairly good living standards and competent incomes to maintain such standards,and unfortunately there's about 892 People living on average in shitty second and third world conditions. So what does this mean? That my thesis of "most of the country" being a bunch of villages and backwater shitholes is in fact correct.

Holy shit anon

>Like what.

State owned businesses, for one thing. If I remember correctly some of the top ten largest businesses in China are state-owned, not even subsidized but owned. There's also the massive police state and various credit policies that may make businesses shy away but that's an abstract thesis that I think is meant for another discussion.

>There are many of them, no need to be so picky.

Not really friendo.

>LOL! I have been to Chicago lad its an old shit hole.

I've been to both Chicago and China lad, guess which one I'd actually prefer to live in?

>The amerifat screams as the forces of capitalism escape his socialist hell hole and move to the east.

Top jej.

>>84106

>bullet trains

>mega cities

Kek. Nice memes, good job at trying to move the goal posts though.

>>84105

640x480 is not high resolution anon.Why is your banter so shit?

>>84110

>largest population

not a great thing forever

On topic: >China is more capitalist than the US.

If Capitalism is being used here according to /liberty/'s standards, which I think would be free-market, free enterprise, and/or lassiez-faire rather than inclusive of state sponsored corporations and publicly held companies, I don't see how anybody can believe this. The ruling party isn't interested in reform and the government still commands both the financial sector and most basic industries. This talk of “Socialism with Chinese Characteristics” doesn't demonstrate much concern for market oriented policies. The government has only become less interested in reform under Xi Jinping.

And while it's true that China has the largest economy of any country in the world and is the top exporter, its per capita income is still well below global averages and the slowdown in growth is evident in the sluggish pace of Chinese moving out of dirt poverty. Private property is tenuous at best. People can own buildings, but all land they're built on is owned by the state. Rural land is collectively owned by villages. The judicial system is not independent of the Communist Party and judicial corruption is a fact of life. The regulatory framework for doing business in China is complicated, uneven, and arbitrary unless you have some nepotistic or crony ally to exploit the endemic corruption of the legal system. The government subsidizes everything to a degree that makes America's agriculture handouts look cute. Exports, energy, and even consumer goods are kept at artificially deflated prices. The financial system is especially closed up. Foreign investment is difficult owing to the dominance of state enterprises.This is how the central planners try to manage the economy and loans are allocated according to political priorities rather than economic performance or viability.

China is far from being the most economically repressed country in world, but it's insane to think it's more liberal than the United States. Eight years of Barack Obama with an opposition part and a federalist system can't fuck an economy worse than 69 years of single-party, unitary autocracy.

>>84062

I really don't understand you right wingers. Always so fucking violent yet whine when you get scratched.

You guys truely do deserve no mercy.

>>84110

>What was moved?

That China is still a shithole, it is still a country of peasants and you can keep repeating your bullshit as much as you please but none of it helps your argument.

> largest economy

Again, a meaningless statement.

> Colonizing the third world

By this logic, everyone is colonizing the third world due to foreign investment in places like Botswanna, etc.

> expanding military power in surrounding regions

kek. It's a paper tiger my dude, it's always been a paper tiger.

> nearly the largest population.

What are you even trying to prove at this point? I ask because not only do none of these points really substantially help your argument but you also condemn welfare and socialism but in the same breath talk about expanding military power as though that helps the economy. What are you trying to prove at this point?

>>84145

> insulting people on the internet is violent

Holy shit, no wonder you retards consider everything to be fascist.

>>84203

>muh bubble, muh paper

These non-arguments

>>84216

>>85929

"Pure X" is a meme. There never have been nor will there ever be economies that are defined purely in "capitalist," "socialist," or "communist" terms because people are not autistic bugs that can live up to some idealized and rigid ideology. That said, the fact that all economies are mixed to some degree does not change that it is academically and politically useful to classify societies as more or less some kind of -ism because of relative effort towards or de facto closeness one more than the other.

So no, the USA is not the most free market, free enterprise, capitalist nation in the world but it doesn't need to be for it still to make sense to call it a capitalist state. Meanwhile, nobody cares whether or not Vietnam dogmatically adheres to Marx and Engels' original writings because they are still for all intents and purposes a communist nation ruled by a communist single-party system and checking possible further liberalization by returning to communist philosophical points.

>Communism

>working

lefties are such retards they worship the words of some dead bearded Jew like he was a God

>>85980

>worship the words of some dead bearded Jew like he was a God

Wait, but that's what Christians do!

>>85984

This is just wrong.