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/liberty/ - Liberty

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WARNING! Free Speech Zone - all local trashcans will be targeted for destruction by Antifa.

File: ea16f6210f5b5bf⋯.png (300.3 KB, 854x570, 427:285, 83f54f034c2f8fd30254df0b19….png)

 No.83931

>debating natsoc friend

>holding my own pretty well

>follow up some point with another about how he can have his ethnostate by forming a gated community in ancap

>tell him if you dont like the rules of one community, you can easily move to another

<"but isnt that already how countries work?"

>"uhh… what?"

>he then goes on to theorize that the world is already ancap because countries are communities that you can voluntarily associate with

I know that's wrong, and I know some basic reasons why, such as the fact that it's too difficult to change nations for it to be viable, and the fact that nation states are too large and inclusive to build culturally homogeneous societies, but that doesnt really hold up in a debate. It sounds like I'm making excuses. Please help me articulate into words why the current world stage isn't already ancap, and help me find a definition for ancap that excludes this sort of predicament.

 No.83933

>>83931

>world is already ancap

If you ignore the "cap" part of "ancap", he's actually 100% correct. If you zoom out to the scale of nations, they interact with each other in a picture perfect example of anarchy. Even international law is just a series of voluntary contracts, which can be broken at any time with the only downside being a loss of reputation.

tl;dr all an anarchist ever asks for is to form our society on roughly the same basis as we formed the international community

The real gritty part of the problem is when you zoom in to the level of the individual. Not only is capitalism extremely rare (one or two countries) but so is any notion of free association. Plenty of countries outright bar immigration or emigration, some religions kill you for leaving them, and for the few cases where free association is possible… it isn't fucking free. You have to bribe your way in.

I'm avoiding the discussion of all the other horrible violations on the scale of the individual, for the purpose of focusing on your question.


 No.83934

>>83933

Agree with this post.

The reality is that real politics and political structures almost never function as a recognition of individuals and entrepreneurs, but rather organizations and groups. Even trying to immigrate to a less-developed country is pretty difficult unless you're being invited by a government or corporate entity. Countries will often waive requirements if you meet certain financial standards. In Mexico they will literally give you permanent residency if you simply prove via bank statements that you have maintained a balance of roughly $100,000 USD for the past 12 months.

Even marrying someone from another country can be a difficult and lengthy process.


 No.83953

>you could use libertarianism to create an authoritarian state

>hey, states are just like that!

You dumbfucks dug your own hole when you deliberately went down that road.


 No.83987

>>83953

Exept you can't leave :^)


 No.83997

>>83931

He's completely right though, maybe you can be a little less of a hypocrite and just see the flaws of your philosophy for what it is — utter rubbish.


 No.83999

>>83997

>rubbish

more intellectually pure then you, muhammed


 No.84077

>>83931

> natsoc friend

a contradiction in terms


 No.84080

>>83931

that's why I'm more for tyrannical libertarianism, which in the end is classical liberalism with more free market and less niggers


 No.84081

>debating natsoc

well, they are shit at debating, when threatened they call you a kike and wait for the mods to ban you. They are the masters of losing an argument.


 No.84089

File: 7fe2e6ca48fe8bd⋯.jpg (85.5 KB, 554x1100, 277:550, burger poster.jpg)

>>84081

>anonymous imageboards

>"debating"


 No.84091

>>84081

This.


 No.84107

>>83931

The owners of the estate don't have consented to the state. To make them move would be taking away their estate.


 No.84129

>>83931

The state's claim to ownership of land, unlike that a property holder in a libertarian community, isn't legitimate, haven't you read the Ethics of Liberty?


 No.84130

>>84129

Ethics are a spook anon. Libertarian realism is best.


 No.84166

>>83931

The state is not the rightful owner of the territory it claims jurisdiction over, and they massively overstep their bounds anyway.


 No.84344

> Please help me articulate into words why the current world stage isn't already ancap,

9 Eyes, and such.


 No.84376

>>83953

>You dumbfucks dug your own hole when you deliberately went down that road.

Nope, you can form your voluntary Nazi or Commy community in ancapistan aslong as you don't violate outside communities.

>>83931

>Please help me articulate into words why the current world stage isn't already ancap, and help me find a definition for ancap that excludes this sort of predicament.

Because these states were founded violateding anarcho-capitalist princibles.

EG the US:

War against Great Britian, who gave the founding fathers the right to decide for every property owner living in the US to form the US and bringing their property under US jurisdiction? They just had the guns.


 No.84389

File: 4fb0d9fc3b5679b⋯.png (60.63 KB, 1000x1000, 1:1, Lpjx00R.png)

>>83931

Strangely nobody in this thread has hit upon the real correct answer to your question, which is that the world obviously isn't libertarian because literally everyone's government is killing dozens of innocents by the second, let alone anything close to respecting the NAP in any way, shape or form. A true libertarian anarchism would involve only agents who respected the NAP, it's called "not being in a state of perpetual war". A few people who came close to this:

>>84129

>>84166

>>84376


 No.84390

>>84389

>A true libertarian anarchism would involve only agents who respected the NAP

How can there be libertarianism when violence happens?


 No.84393

>>84390

Simple, when an act of aggression is initiated, that means it wasn't real libertarianism. In a true free market, market forces will ensure acts of aggression are minimized as much as possible.


 No.84400

>>84393

>when an act of aggression is initiated, that means it wasn't real libertarianism

>In a true free market

>acts of aggression are minimized

minimized or not initiated? hmm

This starts to look very alike the "not real socialism/communism" argument


 No.84487

>>84400

IT WASN'T REAL LIBERTARIANISM YOU STATIST SCUM


 No.84497

File: 0a0d9b1bcb4f09d⋯.mp4 (6.09 MB, 480x360, 4:3, the liberty tree.mp4)

>>84400

>This starts to look very alike the "not real socialism/communism" argument

Not really, what he wrote was rather simple;

>when an act of aggression is initiated, that means it wasn't real libertarianism

Meaning that Libertarianism, anarcho-capitalism, etc all ultimately revolve around voluntary, peaceful action regarding individuals along with their property. When force is initiated, ie: someone getting robbed, that this is not the free market at work but rather an obfuscation in voluntary and peaceful exchange, similar to the state. The state is not a part of the free market because it does not act in a voluntary manner, rather, it relies on force to achieve it's means of funding, monopolistic service provision, etc.

On to the next part and this is the part where you fail to grip what he's saying;

> In a true free market, market forces will ensure acts of aggression are minimized as much as possible.

Means very simply that in the free market, aggression (I specify aggression and not violence because violence is ultimately a very broad term that can incorporate activities such as boxing, mma, self-defense, etc) is curtailed due to market forces valuing individuals, enterprises and businesses who plan for long term benefit and provide valuable services over those who are less intelligent, more violent, and less likely to plan for long term benefits. People or even entire communities that are known to commit or advocate for aggressive acts such as stealing from the general public, mass murder, etc are ostracized and/or dealt with violently if push comes to shove.

That's not to say that aggressive acts or violations of the NAP such as murder or theft will somehow all magically disappear in a Libertarian or an anarcho-capitalist society, after all, no society regardless of the system has ever been able to achieve this and it's unlikely that any society ever will. What this implies, however, is that due to the way that the market works and it's favoring of peaceful and efficient actors, that aggression will be kept to a minimum as it is De-incentivized and simply not profitable in any real sense.

TL;DR: Aggression is not a part of the market, and due to how the market works, aggression is not incentivized, rather it is De-incentivized.

> comfy song unrelated


 No.84500

>>84497

I agree, m8, i just disliked his statement. It is just that aggression is not the base of an ancap society, while what he said sounded like ancapistan cannot be if there is violence. Market exists outside of violence, and ancap system is based on it, not vice versa.


 No.84503

File: 6753498d15deba2⋯.jpg (301.19 KB, 1000x800, 5:4, frens.jpg)

>>84500

oh okay, excuse my autism


 No.84806

>>83931

You can't leave a "gated community" in the real world because a handful of them have arbitrarily claimed possession of all of the earth's landmass. In ancapistan it would be infeasible for any given group to claim an area of land the size of a US State. Imagine five thousand sovereign communities in North America. That's what ancapistan looks like.


 No.85275

>>84806

Where's the anarchism in having 5000 sovereign communties? That just sounds like a shit ton of tiny little states as compared to a single larger state.




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