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WARNING! Free Speech Zone - all local trashcans will be targeted for destruction by Antifa.

File: 5146161e28cb4ec⋯.png (323.38 KB, 562x570, 281:285, image.png)

 No.79045

What is in Anarcho-Capitalism that makes it hard to argue against? I haven't seen a good counter-argument to it that isn't some unrealistic hyperbole that is theoretically possible (from what I'm aware of), but is extremely unlikely. This is from an outsider.

 No.79046

>>79045

Internal consistency. Anarchocapitalism, as well as Austrian economics in general, is based on a small number of assertions about what motivates people and how the world works, and then expands upon them as completely as possible. In a nutshell, these are:

>people will always take purposeful action to minimize unease

>property rights are universally extant and enforceable

Everything from the practicalities of Austrian economics, e.g. the business cycle and supply and demand, to the ideological motivation of Ancap specifically (NAP, taxation is immoral, etc) is at some level just one of these axioms being followed to its logical conclusion. Because there aren't any exceptions or caveats to these principles within the framework of anarchocapitalism, there's no room for logical contradiction. Because the principles themselves are few in number, and wide-ranging yet also specific in their assertions–the definition of aggression, for instance, denotes a very particular kind of motivation, that can be applied to a great variety of actions. Through its simplicity, as well as its competence at predicting what actions humans will take, the logic of Anarchocapitalist ideology becomes ironclad.


 No.79047

File: 54ab9c652d23123⋯.png (157.23 KB, 780x800, 39:40, ClipboardImage.png)

>>79046

As a counterexample, let's take utilitarianism. Its core tenet–morality is maximized when utility is maximized and/or suffering is minimized–is simple enough when taken at face value. And the idea that how moral an action is depends on the well-being it creates also makes sense on the surface, since most people will agree that causing suffering is not a moral act. However, once you try doing what ancaps have done with the NAP, and follow the principles of utilitarianism to their logical conclusion in a variety of scenarios, you start to run into problems.

The most obvious one is what Red here demonstrates pretty well: most people are in agreement with the idea that saving a hundred is "better" than saving ten. A large number of people, although not quite as many as before, will also agree that, given the choice, killing ten is "less worse" than killing a hundred. However, outside of simple, quantifiable binary models such as these, the correlation between utilitarianism and conventional ideas on morality start to break down. Exterminating the homeless to make cities cleaner, less prone to crime, and more pleasant on the eye is generally seen as immoral. But utilitarianism claims that it would be perfectly okay to do this if the arithmetic balances, and the utility lost by the dead minority of homeless people is less than the utility gained by everyone else in the city. And so, in order to make their theory reflect reality (and thus continue to be a functional theory that accurately explains present actions and predicts future ones), you need to add some kind of caveat. Perhaps that instigating a loss of utility we could call that, oh, I don't know, AGGRESSION or something like that against an innocent person isn't morally admissible.

Then there's the other problem with the utilitarian proposal: "utility" is a subjective, ill-defined concept, yet the theory calls for us to not just quantify it but to do arithmetic with it. We must take this ever-varying, arbitrary notion, and attach a constant, numerical significance to it. Is the utility of giving a thousand children lollipops more or less than the anguish of a single child losing his beloved pet? What about ten thousand children? A million?

Or, let's say I was brutally torturing one person on live video, but I was streaming it to perverts that were taking immense sexual pleasure from watching this. Let's also assume that it's somehow confirmed that the utility of a /d/egenerate chatroom orgasming was greater than the utility lost by the poor soul being tortured. What if there's a power outage and, unbeknownst to me, the live feed gets cut? Is the exact same action, with the exact same intent, now the product of a sadistic barbarian rather than a selfless entertainer giving pleasure to audience? Do we need to add yet another caveat to the core tenet about actor's intent? In that case, is telling someone that they've been unknowingly creating atrocities immoral, because through that knowledge of greatly decreased that person's utility?

Because there are all these holes and contradictions in the base theory of utilitarianism, it's rather easy to attack it and discredit it. You can try and fix this by adding caveats, exceptions in specific circumstances, et cetera. But even if you manage to catch every little problem that can come up, what you're left with isn't utilitarianism at all. It's an unsightly patchwork of philosophical legalese, undoing or limiting so much of the original theory's key aspects that it can no longer be said to have a voice in its own framework. Instead, all you have is a bizarre, ineffective conglomeration of intuitionism and a half-baked form of the NAP. Utilitarianism has lost its simplicity, its elegance, its internal consistency, and with all of that its efficacy as a theory.


 No.79049

File: dfbb0bc41086494⋯.png (37.84 KB, 951x329, 951:329, shameless self promotion.PNG)

>>79047

I chose utilitarianism for this counterexample because it's just such a good example of what not to do. But to a greater or lesser extent, this applies to most other philosophies as well, particularly the direct competitors to libertarianism within political discourse at this moment. The modern political parties don't have much in the way of internal consistency, but that's also by design: the platforms of these parties are meant to be appealing to as many people as possible, and as such are constructed not of theory at all, but a hodge podge of sound bites and platitudes that are meant to hit a couple emotional notes, with a wide variety of demographics.

Other political theories are more coherent, and take on a veneer of consistency, but, like utilitarianism, this breaks down when you realize that the conviction of the claims they make are only skin-deep. Ethnonationalism, for example, has the stated goal of protecting the welfare of the nation-state and its inhabitants, specifically families of inhabitants, which they claim are the smallest possible microcosm of the nation. To put it another way, ethnonationalists say that the nation is blut und boden–blood and soil. But whose blood, and whose soil? Is newly conquered land a part of this, or is the welfare of that land the provision of the rival nation you just subdued? Most ethnonationalists seem to agree that half-breeds aren't part of their people. But what about three-quarters native? Seven-eighths? Surely it isn't 100%, nearly all citizens would have some trace of foreign blood from distant ancestors. What about a pure-breed that was raised outside the nation, knowing next to nothing of his ancestral land's culture? Is he part of the people? And then there's the issue of what "welfare" itself means. Ethnonationalists are mostly against a widespread welfare state but still believe in some kind of safety net exclusive to natives. The size and scope of this safety net is never really agreed on. Certain businesses are banned for being "harmful" to the greater people, but to what degree a business has to be "harming" the citizenry in order to be banned is arbitrary. Because these terms are somewhat arbitrary and not well-defined to say nothing of the fallacious antimarket arguments, ethnonationalism is not able to withstand criticism with the ease that comes to anarchocapitalism.

I was planning to make a similar analysis about the apparent well-defined thesis of Marxism being in reality an arbitrary, poorly defined mess, but I realized that there wasn't any point, because Marxism doesn't even pretend to hide behind a short list of fundamental principles. It's a retarded hodgepodge of of irrelevant arguments and trite to fulfill a purely emotional goal, just like the modern political parties, but manages to do it even worse. The closest equivalent would be cultural Marxism, whose advocates tend to act in the name of one central tenet, equality. "Equality" in this case even more poorly defined than "utility" is in utilitarianism, and even less obtainable. Because not only is it impossible to attain as long as humans act in any way that isn't completely static (i.e., as long as humans act at all), what the end-goal actually looks like is so open to interpretation not even the Cultural Marxists know what it is.

Also, at risk of sounding cheeky and pretentious, I would like to point out that in my commentary on these ideologies I've used a similar method in deconstructing them: rather than an elaborate and self-contradictory set of rules I followed the simple and well-defined formula of asking:

>is the theory based on a small number of core, wide-reaching arguments/principles

>are those principles well-defined and internally consistent


 No.79058

>>79049

>>79047

>>79049

Five star posts.

>>79045

Kudos to your openmindedness.


 No.79094

>>79045

To add to what the guy above me already said, or rather to add my own perspective to it, anarchocapitalists have a very strong grounding for their ideology. This does not necessarily mean they're right (obviously, I think they are), but it means they can just deflect a lot of the criticism aimed at them. Our economic theories are derived a priori from first principles, and so they can only be defeated by disproving these principles or the chain of logical argumentation that links them to our conclusions. Few people learn economics systematically enough to even handle this style of argumentation, though, even professional economists. Anarchocapitalist economic theories are like a tree with very strong roots. Certain other trees may look more grandiose and magnificent, but in a strong wind, our tree will be the last to be uprooted. Historical anecdotes, observations, psychological experiments, these can take the wind from other theories, but not ours.

Ethically, it is similar. Few people know how to deal with systems derived from first principles. They just don't know how to disprove the principle of self-ownership, for example, and so they fall back on lifeboat-scenarios instead, which at best vaguely point that something is not right with our theories. You can accept that there is something wrong with our theory, then, or you can say that there is nothing wrong, and we must accept the terrible conclusion because it follows from premises that are still unchallenged and can be assumed as valid. Or, you can say that there is something wrong if we would shoot a poor guy who stole lifesaving medicine for his little son, but then what? Why throw the theory as a whole out instead of adding to it, to account for such cases?

Hope this wasn't as incoherent as it seems to me now, it is pretty late here and my vision is already getting blurry.


 No.79112

>>79046

>>79047

>>79049

>>79094

Excellent posts anons, this is why I come to /liberty/.


 No.79148

>>79045

Autism and zeal.


 No.79158

>>79045

I'd say a lot of it is because it's not based on empirical evidence but like, a priori. I think most people are used to using empirical evidence when arguing against something. You go on Youtube and see people 'debunking' things or arguing against this or that, it's usually just a curated list of statistics or data. Any idiot with a college education could throw data and statistics at each other. The more data you have the more right you are, that's the idea, I think. But anarcho-capitalism is all analytical, it doesn't pretend to rely on data. Because of this people disregard it as childish or nonintellectual and disregard it with some ridiculous exaggeration that may even contradict the principles on which anarcho-capitalism is established.

I think there is also the fact that ancap stuff is just so far off the mainstream that most people could go their entire lives without knowing of one ancap author or thinker, even more so than the socialist anarchism. >>79046 makes a good point but I don't think most people who argue against anarcho-capitalism even know what its basic principles are so their arguments are usually nonrelevant. So its like, anarcho-capitalism is built on an analytical foundation most people aren't used to engaging with and it's so obscure that they can't identify how it differs from conservatism or mainstream libertarian movements, they just think its conservatism or libertarianism "but worse".


 No.79165

>>79158

I'd have to agree with this as well. Even in the sciences, both hard and soft, we see a slavelike devotion to empiricism, and just blindly throwing a regression line through data and calling it a "theory." And no, science isn't all about empirical data. It was called "natural philosophy" once upon a time, after all. Because the essential core of science is to create a priori theories that match the evidence, not merely to describe what's happening. That's why scientists say that gravity is the "least understood" of the fundamental forces despite having a very well-documented and empirically supported formula describing gravity's pull Well, it doesn't work as well at the extremely large scale, which is where the "dark matter" bullshit comes from, but that's a rant for another time. Because scientists haven't been able to conclusively answer why mass is attracted to other mass proportional to the inverse-square of the distance, we say we don't understand it.


 No.83078

>>79045

One thing I'd like to add to this: Ancaps are near always made, not born–because it is one of the most shunned and vilified ideologies in existence, the process of becoming ancap entails sifting through vast tracts of misinformation and rhetoric that is in either direct or implicit opposition to it, and/or getting handily defeated in argument by an established ancap multiple times. Further, because Anarcho-Capitalism is so thoroughly disparaged, its followers are subjected constantly to verbal assault from its detractors, which gives them a fair amount of experience in defending their points through argument.


 No.83080

>>79047

>>79046

>>79049

You, sir. You're just simply amazing, because now I have some arguments to win against leftists (i had before, but I mean, now I have even more!). You just become my hero, it's a shame you posted anonymously because I'll be glad to follow you through social networks.


 No.83081

File: bbce17a767afbd6⋯.webm (171.06 KB, 760x572, 190:143, I try.webm)

>>83080

Hey, thanks. Don't really have a presence on social networks, however, so there's only so much you can do to fellate my ego.


 No.83083

>>83080

You could at least donate him some bitcoins if you're so grateful, "thank you" isn't exactly something you can put in your pocket you know.


 No.83098

>>83083

Not bitcoins because i don't have any. But i have dogecoins hahaha.


 No.83101

>>79047

>Spends paragraphs debunking an ideology that no one even defends

ha ha ha, what a story mark

>>79049

>I was planning to make a similar analysis about the apparent well-defined thesis of Marxism being in reality an arbitrary, poorly defined mess, but I realized that there wasn't any point, because Marxism doesn't even pretend to hide behind a short list of fundamental principles. It's a retarded hodgepodge of of irrelevant arguments and trite to fulfill a purely emotional goal…

Yeahhhh…. there's intelligent arguments to be made against Marxism, but that isn't one of them.


 No.83113

File: ca307a39ac5e884⋯.jpg (37.23 KB, 403x394, 403:394, autistic screeching.jpg)

>>83101

no arguments provided in this post


 No.84177

>>79045

It's logical problems only manifest long after anyone who hates it has stopped paying attention, so people who complain very rarely know what they are talking about. Most people who actively argue against anarcho-capitalism do so from a position of both inexperience and insufficient data, while anyone who looks into it will be past that kind of behavior if and when they decide that it would'nt work.


 No.87911

> What is in Anarcho-Capitalism that makes it hard to argue against?

Logical thinking from first principles that everyone basically lives (human rights and the NAP for example) and accepts on an individual level on a day to day basis.

Also sound economics and the trend in history that the more the fundamental an-cap principles are adopted the better off a nation is.


 No.87913

File: c704377e173ac53⋯.jpeg (48.6 KB, 700x572, 175:143, arguing with leftists.jpeg)

>>79045

<The NAP will solve the problems.

>How

<If a man aggresses on another they will be punished.

>By who

<Everyone

>Who decides what constitutes as an aggression

<The guy who got aggressed on

>What if he is dead, or people disagree

<His family will decide, or he will decide

>And if people have varying opinions on what constitutes as aggression?

<His family will decide, or he will decide

>Say one man retaliates because he believes he was aggressed on, but the supposed aggressor says that he was aggressed on first, and that by retaliating it is actually the relative breaking the NAP.

<The people will decide

>There are no courts

<People will have to write down/signpost/declare their personal NAP policies

(At this point they're backpedaling and molding their ideology as they argue)

>There's no one to interpret them and the legal system is the clusterfuck it is for a reason

<Private courts

>With varying lawbooks? Who forces anyone to go to these courts?

<Uuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Repeat ad infinitum.

tlr;dr pic


 No.87915

File: 14ec8bb3eff7332⋯.png (53.84 KB, 500x534, 250:267, argument.png)

>>87913

not an argument




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