/liberty/ - Liberty

>>73973

In a libertarian world Europeans would be able to low-key colonize Africa, but Africans would not be able to migrate to Europe.

Remember, it's they who need us, we don't need them. Supply and demand.

as long as neither party violated any private property

>>73974

>Remember, it's they who need us, we don't need them. Supply and demand.

Well, they are sitting on resources which they hardly scratch on, they have fertile land, and a lot of rare wildlife. Most of which goes to waste because the inhabitants suck, and not just because they're niggers.

>>73974

Statists seem to have an irrational demand to be replaced by them though.

>>73984

>Statism itself is irrational behavior to begin with. Imagine WANTING a parasite that steals from you, that dictates what it is that your children learn, will only grow as time goes on.

It really isn't. Opposition to theft through taxation is very limited if either the state is doing a good job with it or it's not taking a lot. Of course we oppose it on both moral and practical grounds, but the point remains. To call what has been the natural human condition for all of civilization irrational is silly.

The problem is that the average person does not know of an alternative or are resistant to our ideas by design. You are right that we are conditioned. Over a decade of public school, crony capitalist institutions, police with itchy trigger fingers, and politics drifting into a zero-sum game help contribute to this. The mind of the average person is a minefield - stepping in the wrong spot will trigger an instant emotional response that rejects any willingness to discuss a subject. Careful discussion can work around these triggers but you can only get so far without stepping on at least one.

One example is the privatization of government responsibilities. Rather than frame the state as an entity all its own, I think you should reduce the frame to each and every member of said group. From the lowliest bureaucrat to the highest politician, encourage people to evaluate the marginal gain they receive from their existence and whether it is worth the marginal cost. Strip them of any association with the state and ask them if they'd tolerate it if they worked in the private sector. Would their behavior fly in their workplace? Once you nail that down, point out that if employment standards are higher in the private sphere, why don't they run the important tasks of the government? This should trigger the landmine but in a way you can control, as you have already framed the argument to your advantage. From here you can attack the classic fallacies while reminding them that they conceded the ineptitude of public governance.

This is the key to discussing these concepts. Like a minesweeper detonating a landmine, you must control how you engage it and how to protect yourself from the explosion.

>>73986

Just this one thing:

>To call what has been the natural human condition for all of civilization irrational is silly.

It hasn't been, though. The state as we know it is a quite modern invention. Rulership has never been as impersonal and anonymous as it is nowadays. In that sense, the modern state is unprecedented. Put anothee way, the glue holding society together was never dispersed that wide. A man is supposed to obey a proudly temporal government, representing a national identity that hopefully hasn't been made up (ask Czechoslovakia or former Yugoslavia), and other ideas that no man can ever get into personal contact with.

>>73973

Why is it that when Africans move to Europe its migration but when Europeans move to Africa it's 'colonization'? What's fundamentally different about those two situations?

>>73988

It's a generalization, generally Africans don't claim a piece of European land as their property and force the locals to pay rent. Europeans generally don't come to africa to homestead and work a minimum wage at Timbuktu for some rich king.

There are exceptions.

>>73988

It's a rhetorical trick by OP to make the uneducated think that the genocidal plundering of foreign lands by the colonial Empires is somehow comparable with people looking for better opportunities in other countries. Of course colonialism has no place in any free society, it would be absurd to claim otherwise.

>>73973

yes

>>73973

A Libertarian would probably feature colonization in the ancient Greek style

>>73997

>statism is cool if it's against niggers

What an "anarchist!"

>>73986

>The mind of the average person is a minefield - stepping in the wrong spot will trigger an instant emotional response that rejects any willingness to discuss a subject.

You have no idea how correct this is. I once had a person admit to me that my arguments for the free market were logical, but that I was just using logic as a tool to manipulate her with.

>>74015

>using logic as a tool to manipulate her with

You made sure to use your logic to make her panties drop, r-right?

>>74016

This was my (now ex) gf. The full story is kind of fucked and I doubt /liberty/ wants to read my blogposts. Short version is, we disagreed politically and she insisted on bringing it up from time to time, usually by starting the "How would a free market deal with _" argument. I said exactly just how. After she broke it off, she apparently convinced herself that my logical arguments were me manipulating her, because she decided she didn't want to believe what I was saying.

>>74017

>The full story is kind of fucked and I doubt /liberty/ wants to read my blogposts.

I wouldn't mind, if you feel like sharing.

>>74017

This thread is just one of the countless shitposts blighting this gay board, so please regale us with your story of love lost.

>>74018

>>74021

All right, you asked for it. The tale of anon and how he fucked up his first relationship. For context: we both had finished our first year at uni, but at different schools. When we both came back to our hometown for the summer we chose to live together. The summer class she was taking gave her a grant that covered tuition and a stipend for rent, I covered food with a paid internship I was doing.

Like I said before, we had political differences. I tried to avoid the subject, but she felt agreement on issues was important, so she brought it up and we fought about it. Eventually, we solved the issue by negotiating and writing up a document that affirmed our mutual views, and signing it. Feminism (not of the 3rd wave variety, but yes, I know) was on that list.

A few weeks after that, she used my laptop to search something up on Youtube, and saw ThatGuyT (ancap youtuber) on my recommended videos list, and watched a video of his explaining why he was against feminism. When I got home, she confronted me about it. Being the stubborn idiot that I am, I defended my action, things got a bit heated. Somehow the equal pay act got pulled into this, and I said I was against that too, for free market reasons. This led to me moving out. A few days later, we met up again, and worked things out, which included me saying I wouldn't act libertarian.

Maybe a week after that, I left for a big two-week trip to Philmont with my scout troop. In hindsight I really shouldn't have, but I was dumb, stubborn, and not the most socially aware person. I asked a few times if she was okay with me going, she said yes, and I went. When I came back she had moved my stuff out and decided that she couldn't forgive me for the equal pay act thing after all, and that, among other things, all those arguments I won was me being manipulative.

This all happened this past summer. That's the gist of what happened, if anyone's curious about other aspects I can blogpost some more after classes.

>>74022

That's nasty, anon. I'll pray that your next relationship will be much better!

>>74022

>negotiating and writing up a document that affirmed our mutual views, and signing it

lmao, like, did it ever work that a woman would shake hands with a man on something and then later actually honor the arrangement?

I think it's silly to try reason with women the same way you would with men. In my opinion she either rolls with you or she doesn't, if she doesn't then she doesn't see you as a man or as the leader of the household in which case the relationship was already doomed from the beginning.

>>74037

>>74040

Young, dumb and full of cum, as the saying goes. It would have been nice to learn without fucking up along the way, but I let the wrong organ do the thinking. Also, I grew up in the San Fran of the Midwest. The only non-lefty people besides myself were a half dozen male hunters. No matter, I've left that place behind for greener pastures.

>>74014

How the fuck do you imagine empires working without states? Truly the British Empire was the epitome of anarchy.

>>74022

That sound pretty normal and boring, not sure why everyone is acting like she murdered your dog or something.

>>74022

That sounds pretty par for the course with regards to talking about liberty. Being against state provided healthcare and other institutions that have been marketed with the aim of helping people makes people think you are a sociopath or something. It's just unavoidable with some people. But it's good you talked about it even if you later went back on your principles for pussy. Libertarianism is a difference of fundamental values and principles so even if you didn't talk about it I think there would inevitably be friction. Maybe it's for the best you two went your separate ways.

Unrelated, ThatGuyT says some really stupid shit when it comes to opinions on social issues. He also treats like nationalists and race realists like colleagues with scholastic differences instead of being fundamentally opposed to liberty and I just can't stand that.

>>74054

>Maybe it's for the best you two went your separate ways.

Probably.

>>74054

>>74055

>Unrelated, ThatGuyT says some really stupid shit when it comes to opinions on social issues. He also treats like nationalists and race realists like colleagues with scholastic differences instead of being fundamentally opposed to liberty and I just can't stand that.

You're not completely wrong there, shit like "the case for libertarian fascism" is pretty cringey. I do think that the liberty movement would benefit from being a little more explicitly paleo-libertarian, in the vein of Hoppe. It would at least serve to distance the movement from the reality-detached libertines of the LP.

>>73999

How would ancient greek colonization work?

>>74056

I don't know what you mean by benefit but I assume you mean reaching wider acceptance among different people? It might, but it'd mostly resonate with older people and the minority of young people who have conservative cultural views, but I think any gain in popularity would fade as younger people more and more dominate politics, and if you make Libertarianism explicitly more paleo then the younger people today might forever be turned off from it.

Personally I'm not too taken in with paleo-libertarianism, I'm more along the lines of Karl Hess with that anarchism doesn't have any explicit normative statements about how society should organize itself as long as it's absent of tyranny. This might be reality-detached but I think that's more palatable in the long run, isn't that what the LP is closer to?

>>74059

>I don't know what you mean by benefit but I assume you mean reaching wider acceptance among different people?

Not exactly acceptance. It's less about preaching a certain message and more about not preaching one; i.e. what the LP is preaching.

>It might, but it'd mostly resonate with older people and the minority of young people who have conservative cultural views, but I think any gain in popularity would fade as younger people more and more dominate politics, and if you make Libertarianism explicitly more paleo then the younger people today might forever be turned off from it.

Speaking as one of those young people, I disagree. When I say paleolibertarianism, I don't mean a carbon-copy of the contemporary religious right. Just a little less pro-libertine, and just a little more pro-tradition. I should also emphasize that young people are beginning to move away from the left. Not a majority in any sense, but a growing minority of the younger generation finds distaste with their peer's clubbing, smoking and drinking. They haven't taken vows of chastity and sobriety, they just don't think libertine behavior should be idolized the way it is. Hence, not evangelical fire-and-brimstone shaming, just a shift away from praising degenerate behavior.

>rsonally I'm not too taken in with paleo-libertarianism, I'm more along the lines of Karl Hess with that anarchism doesn't have any explicit normative statements about how society should organize itself as long as it's absent of tyranny.

Oh, I agree. There's no reason to suggest banning certain kinds of behavior, nor to assume that full-on traditionalism is the only sustainable solution (though I do think the market will favor traditionalism over libertines, but the market can prove that on its own without any kind of preaching).

>isn't that what the LP is closer to?

The LP isn't even recognizable as libertarian anymore. Most of its voterbase is comprised of dudeweed centrists and "fuck the two-party system, man!" edgelords. Gary Johnson supports eminent domain and "humanitarian" foreign wars. His running mate was a gun grabber. John Mcafee went onstage to bitch about the libertarian movement being too white and too male.

>>74064

>I should also emphasize that young people are beginning to move away from the left. Not a majority in any sense, but a growing minority of the younger generation finds distaste with their peer's clubbing, smoking and drinking.

I hope this doesn't offend you but I think you're taking your very limited lived experience, that everyone has, and applying it as the zeitgeist. What I mean is, there have always been a minority of young people who have been disgusted with the debauchery of other young people. Two thousand years ago you ago I'm sure there were people like you in Rome talking about how people are growing tired of chariot games and drunken partying. Don't take this to be an insult, I think it's natural for us to hold our own time as unique and special because it's the only thing we've lived through. But if history has anything to teach us its that people tend to hold onto their youthful beliefs but as they grow older it becomes entrenched conservatism rather than youthful liberalism without the ideas really changing.

But I wouldn't exactly call the youth of today degenerate, at least no more than degenerate than the generation before them was compared to their antecedents, if you mean by degenerate a disposition to base pleasures rather than morals. To be honest in a lot of ways the youth is a lot more restricted by growing moral imperatives. I mean, especially if you consider the stereotypical SJW who wants to eliminate all social inequalities even at the expense of their satisfaction of their base appetites. Young people today smoke less, drink less, and fuck less than their parents did, after all. They aren't traditionalists but they aren't exactly lacking in moral beliefs, the youth.

>Gary Johnson

He wasn't great, but you don't find 'true' libertarians in politics, they just are incompatible with government. But at least Gary Johnson would be a good stepping stone toward a true Libertarian country. It's better to have Gary Johnson, a war mongering statist who would at least frustrate other efforts of government expansion than a war mongering statist who would expedite it. I even think that the LP is too white and too male insofar as that Libertarianism seems to only resonate with white males generally, we really need to have a wider acceptance if liberty will succeed. While the LP is sort of a joke, it does a better job of appealing to non-whites and non-males better than Hoppes could. By hook or by crook we need to convince people, hit them with diet Libertarianism if it works, you know?

>>74066

>He wasn't great, but you don't find 'true' libertarians in politics, they just are incompatible with government.

That's not true, there was Ron Paul and even his son Rand Paul was better than Gary Johnson for most of his run.

>. I even think that the LP is too white and too male insofar as that Libertarianism seems to only resonate with white males generally, we really need to have a wider acceptance if liberty will succeed. While the LP is sort of a joke, it does a better job of appealing to non-whites and non-males better than Hoppes could.

This is a joke, right?

>>74058

It was violent conquest done by small city states instead of huge empires.