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/liberty/ - Liberty

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WARNING! Free Speech Zone - all local trashcans will be targeted for destruction by Antifa.

File: 62be3cb4dec673d⋯.jpg (303.34 KB, 1001x701, 1001:701, WHO_Abortions_Demographics.jpg)

 No.73716

This is not a 'gotcha!' thread, but I am legitimately curious as to what other Ancaps think. I call myself an Ancap, and I believe in abortion in limited circumstances. I believe that Abortion would be killing another person, and therefore, in violation of the NAP. Do other Ancaps agree or do you think that Abortion should be allowed because of personal freedom?

 No.73721

>>73716

One thing to keep in mind is that abortions will always continue regardless of laws. 'Back-alley' abortions would most likely increase if the abortion market was restricted so that no abortions could be performed legally. The black market always appears when the free market is constrained. I myself am against late-term abortions as well as those abortions done due to irresponsibility. I don't know the statistics of abortions performed due to genetics of the child or harm to mother cases.


 No.73725

>>73721

This. Abortions are horrible, but they should be fought on a societal level, not by having le big gubmint fight them.


 No.73727

>>73721

Couldn't you easily make this same argument for hitmen?


 No.73730

>>73727

Yes, but this argument is not about hitmen. Has the state or any authoritative power prevented murder, crime, drug use, or prostitution? Let's stay focused on the argument at hand.


 No.73731

I'm tending towards seeing abortion as ethically impermissible, but punishment of it as imprudent. Killing a women who had an abortion would create far more evil than good, and I don't mean this in a utilitarian sense. No one would be a better, more virtuous person for it.


 No.73732

Following up on >>73721.

Another aspect that I was pondering, was that when a woman realized that she was pregnant, then she would need a very valid reason to terminate the pregnancy such as severe genetic disabilities or risk to her life. Contraception should be allowed without tedious restrictions or regulations in order to make it a more accessible option, such as the morning after pill. Granted we already have free condom machines, but as we know, everyone likes that skin-to-skin contact. Adoption regulations need to be lifted and turned over to the private sector to make the process a lot more streamlined. Allowing for more places that women can drop off unwanted pregnancies also allows for a greater upkeep of those newborns that may be turned over to the dumpster. Now all this will not prevent 'back-alley' abortions, but it may help many women rethink that decision. For those women with a viable chance of a healthy birth for mother and child, that do not choose adoption once they realize they are pregnant, then this can be considered as a violation of the NAP. This would put the responsibility back upon the mother and not upon the taxpayer or society at large.


 No.73737

File: 86f7144e07203c5⋯.png (120.63 KB, 226x207, 226:207, 570152952.png)

>its another white male virgins bitching and whining about women thread

who let r/incels in here? you shitheads already had 3 threads of playing delusional idiotic misogynists and that wasn't enough?

your arguments are completely idiotic, men have ZERO right to tell women what they should be able to do with their bodies and their offspring ffs

ancaps and lolberts are a blight to the anarchist movement, no wonder every walk of life considers them incredibly stupid and pathetic


 No.73738

File: 2fbf9dfc1b8a982⋯.jpg (52.3 KB, 600x600, 1:1, Sorry for your butthurt.jpg)

>>73737

>t.butthurt


 No.73741

It makes no difference if a baby is a person or not. It's not my duty to prevent others from being killed.


 No.73742

>>73737

If a woman tells a man to get a vasectomy, is that her right?


 No.73744

File: 1910c8cc97384d2⋯.png (406.44 KB, 879x514, 879:514, 1502040822756.png)

>>73737

>baiting this hard

Have a cookie, you earned it.


 No.73747

>>73737

>An anarchist is someone who refuse to obey

>men have ZERO right to tell women what they should be able to do with their bodies

Don't tell me what to do.


 No.73748

File: 83f1cf20d72ab3a⋯.jpg (166.37 KB, 660x900, 11:15, gunfighters.jpg)

>>73716

> Do other Ancaps agree or do you think that Abortion should be allowed because of personal freedom?

Although there's a lot of debates in regards to when and how the fetus is alive, abortion is ultimately a violation of the NAP. I don't doubt as one anon said that people would most likely keep having abortions, but people doing it regardless of the law is irrelevant. If a woman's 'personal freedom' ultimately intrudes on the life of another organism, then her 'personal freedom' is akin to the personal freedom of a murderer and shouldn't be taken seriously.

I would argue however in the case of rape or in the case of a birth which may kill the mother that there may be a case for abortion but that down to a case by case basis.


 No.73749

>>73716

Whatever your personal feelings about abortion are it's well within someones right, as far as Libertarianism goes, to have an abortion. The fetus' relationship with the mother is parasitic by its very nature and it would be a violation of NAP to force a woman to carry a fetus through until birth. A person's body is their own property and like any other kind of property they may decide what to do with it. Whether removing the fetus from the body will result in its death does not change this fact. A doctor should not be forced to administer care to someone, even if it would result in death, if they choose not to. A person should not be forced to admit someone into their home even if they are suffering from the elements. I don't see why a fetus would enslave someone to carry it to term.

Now ethically speaking, should a person carry a fetus to term, should a doctor administer care even without expecting anything in return, should a person offer shelter to someone else? This is up for the individual to decide but not for others to decide for them.


 No.73752

File: ef2a9d42c59ea91⋯.jpg (296 KB, 1920x710, 192:71, retarded architecture.jpg)

>>73749

> The fetus' relationship with the mother is parasitic by its very nature and it would be a violation of NAP to force a woman to carry a fetus through until birth.

There's sort of one problem with that thesis. The problems comes from the fact that the fetus itself is a human organism and did not choose to be parasitical on the mother. It's parasitical nature (if it can be called that) is ideally the result of the mother choosing to have sexual intercourse which resulted in it's development, it has no other choice then to exist in a parasitical manner due to an action by both the father and the mother. Put simply, this human being, which has it's own body ergo it's own property only exists because of the actions of it's parents and not for any other particular reason.

> A doctor should not be forced to administer care to someone, even if it would result in death, if they choose not to.

There's a difference between being forced to service someone who has no inherent duty to someone else's property where as in the case of the mother, I'd argue that the fetus does have an inherent right to the mother's resources while the mother is pregnant. The fetus did not choose to exist, the mother and the father ultimately made that choice to bring it into existence and as such they do have a duty to see through it's most basic development.

Here's a little chicken nugget for thought: If a couple decide to starve a child as a means of getting rid of it, or maybe they even forgot. Is their lack of action wrong?

> retarded architecture unrelated.


 No.73757

I believe that it's murder, but that aside I imagine abortion will go "out of style" as a matter of competition in an AnCap society, so it doesn't matter other than for riling up women who sleep around and try to screech about how they're not whores.

<1) Hippocratic Oath

The Hippocratic Oath flat-out states that a doctor can't perform an abortion. Unfortunately doctors have stopped taking the Hippocratic Oath (or rather they've heavily revised it) to fit their needs. In the absence of the AMA, I imagine that the "doctor schools" that happen to utilize the Hippocratic Oath will be holding themselves to a higher standard in the first place and thus will be the better doctors.

<2) Abortions are expensive

Without abortions being subsidized and costs otherwise negated, abortions are an expensive and unnecessary procedure. While I hate comparing murder to plastic surgery, abortions if they still exist will be like the "plastic surgery" of baby killing. If you cheap out, you'll likely end up with all sorts of diseases and other complications down the line such as infertility.

<3)Economic Incentive

Abortions happen mostly among two demographics: Rich white women who don't want to ask daddy for birth control/contraceptives, and poor people. As an AnCap economy will allegedly be the same or better, and as abortions are funded by the state in the first place meaning they'll likely be expensive or dangerous procedures in AnCapistan, it's not hard to believe that economic incentive will win out and make people just buy the damn pill if they're gonna be degenerate harlots anyways.

tl;dr- Abortion will exist in AnCapistan, but like how "conservative" beliefs win out when the state isn't subsidizing "here and now" thinking via gibs, it's likely that it will be a limited field of expertise that is generally not performed or when performed, requires money and cost-analysis as well as serious reflection. It might be banned in some towns, it might not in others. Just as I think degenerates won't last long in AnCapistan, I think this barbaric practice will die out or become obscure as well.


 No.73758

>>73752

>>73749

This is straying into implied contracts territory, and what kind of obligations parents have to their child, so it's a lot more up to personal interpretation than it is an epistemological breakdown of the NAP. What we'd most likely see is different case law applying in different regions, depending on the local cultural values.


 No.73760

File: a5787bb69d8dff5⋯.jpg (630.82 KB, 2338x2324, 167:166, a5787bb69d8dff513073023b19….jpg)

>>73749

If you're not an evictionist, you're kidding yourself on this one.

If I get a dude so fucking drunk he passes out on my lawn and pisses himself, and I decide I don't want him on my property the next morning when I wake up and find him there, I DON'T have the right to shoot him in the head. I have the right to expel him from my property such as by rolling him onto the sidewalk, but that's where my rights end and his begin. With abortions being possible earlier and earlier in the development of an unborn child, while ideally conception would be the standard, pretty much anything after the heart/brain has formed will be capable of surviving in a lab/medical environment if "evicted" in about a decade, two tops. A child is not a parasite, but even if he/she were, you'd have the right to remove said child from your body, not the right to kill it (and pretty much all abortions today kill the child before removing it).


 No.73762

File: b9e55ee168d4f0d⋯.jpg (22.42 KB, 202x373, 202:373, b9e55ee168d4f0d92a4caaca01….jpg)

>>73757

And before some faggot says "what if the pill/condom doesn't work?" You get into a mechanical death trap probably almost every day, going at speeds that would kill you if you were to impact a object, to get from one destination to another, and you do so willingly. When you go to a muti-story building, you get into a box that's inception was a matter of poor design/idiocy, and which at any time could make you fall to your death, because it's convenient. If you live in America, you eat a root that contains deadly poisons in it on a daily basis because it tastes good when fried, baked, put into pasta, etc. You knew what you were signing up for when you took the gamble to go fuck, no matter how small the chances were of hitting that lucky/unlucky percentage who end up pregnant regardless. No excuses.


 No.73766

>>73749

>The fetus' relationship with the mother is parasitic by its very nature and it would be a violation of NAP to force a woman to carry a fetus through until birth.

I completely disagree. Nobody forces a woman to have unprotected sex and obtain this "parasite", nor did the "parasite" choose to infect its mother without the mother's consent. The mother herself chose to infect herself with this "parasite" by being stupid and irresponsible (in most cases).

On a government level it is definitely somebody's right to have an abortion and it should be legal, however, it should be combated on a cultural level with education and propaganda. In the end it is still up to the mother to either kill her child or own up to her actions.


 No.73767

>>73732

>Allowing for more places that women can drop off unwanted pregnancies also allows for a greater upkeep of those newborns that may be turned over to the dumpster.

Why the government of course! If even a mother thinks her child is a useless parasitic organism, what can the government possibly do to it?


 No.73768

>>73716

i agree with you op


 No.73777

>>73767

Who said anything about the government?


 No.73780

>>73737

The bad grammar gives the bait away, either that, or you are genuinely low-iq.


 No.73798

>>73777

Are you fucking kidding me? Doing anything without the government? Are you some kind of anarchist/individualist?


 No.73838

I think, at least in the short term, any sort of grey area in what constitutes aggression would be decided on a community to community basis. It doesn't really matter if it's a violation of the NAP if nobody is willing to enforce the NAP. Covenant communities would either choose for something to be allowed or disallowed, and any community with a polycentric pseudo-legal system would come to consensus eventually through the action of the market. Either way, I think you'd see something like abortion exist in some communities and not others.

Whether this equilibrium point is stable, I can't really say. It could be that communities refuse to do business with or allow access from those that allow abortion, and this slowly moves the grand consensus in the anti-abortion direction. I really don't think "they don't allow abortion, the fuckers!" would be quite as convincing as "these people are killing babies! BAN THEM!" so I think they have the distinct advantage there. If I had to guess, I'd say it would become a niche sort of thing; some places would accept the demand and specialize in it, sort of like how some states now attract a sort of "abortion tourism" from their neighbors. Some places might have standards that say "if you visit Abortion City, you are barred from the community," but I doubt it would stop it outright.


 No.73841

>Should murder be allowed because of personal freedom?


 No.73850

if it cant consent it catagorically isnt a person

I dont think anyone will go ahead and say a fetus can consent, but if you do I would like to hear it


 No.73857

>>73850

>If it can't consent it catagorically isn't a person

Lots of things and people can't consent. Last time I checked the act of being drunk/high doesn't make someone stop being a human being.


 No.73991

>>73752

>The problems comes from the fact that the fetus itself is a human organism and did not choose to be parasitical on the mother

Sure. I don't deny that the fetus does not choose itself to grow in the womb and that it's growth is the product of a woman and a man. But it still doesn't change the fundamental right of the mother to have the exclusive right to the right of her own body. Her rights are not superseded by the fact that there is a fetus inside her. I think once you start to talk about 'inherent rights to the mother's resources' this is an attack on property in general.

> Here's a little chicken nugget for thought: If a couple decide to starve a child as a means of getting rid of it, or maybe they even forgot. Is their lack of action wrong?

First of all, I wasn't making a moral decision about abortion. I wasn't saying that it was right or wrong, or at least I tried not to. I was merely stating that a person's right to their own body is ultimate. Whether what they decide to do with their body is right or wrong is not a Libertarian discussion but a moral discussion to be decided by the individual. Second your question implies that some force was used against a child in order to starve it, not a lack of action. By the way you phrase it you already set it up as an act of aggression, which isn't applicable, I think, to the situation of a child in the womb. Forcing someone to care for a child would be an act of aggression, but using force to starve a child would also be an act of aggression. The right or wrongness about abortion is up to philosophers and theologians to decide but with regards to property rights its pretty cut and dry, I'd say.

>>73760

You have the right to use necessary force but no greater to remove someone from your property, sure. If removing someone from your property will result in their death that doesn't invalidate the exclusive right to your own property. Killing someone and removing something from your property are two entirely different matters. One implies force beyond what is necessary in the exercise of your property and the other suggests force necessary but not exceeding that. Removing a child inside of your body is entirely different from murder, so don't conflate the two. If removing a fetus from the body results in its death then that is up for the mother to decide the rightness and wrongness, but in the end it is her own body so the decision on what to do is entirely her own, just as it is your own decision to remove the drunk, even if it might result in the drunks death.

>>73766

Seems you agree with me generally but have strong moral objections to abortion, except with the part of leaving it up to the government.


 No.74019

I agree with Ron Paul on the issue.

You are a citizen of the United States if you are born in the United States. The key word here is born. A fetus is not a citizen, therefore, the disposal of such a creature does not violate their rights as they have no rights. Ultimately, it is a states rights issue, and a federal allowance is unconstitutional.


 No.74031

>>73850

can toddlers consent :^) ?


 No.74039

File: ad0110ea8d26f98⋯.jpg (1.29 MB, 1944x2592, 3:4, cuba1.jpg)

>>73991

>Her rights are not superseded by the fact that there is a fetus inside her.

Except they are, we've already operated and agreed on two propositions. The first of which being that the fetus doesn't choose to grow inside the womb and that it is ultimately a product of actions the woman pursued. That is to say that this woman has given the child life, to kill it is to end another human being's life, deride him of ownership of his own body despite her actions which bring the fetus into existence in the first place. Once a woman is pregnant her body ultimately supplies two organism, the first is herself and the other is the fetus. The child's right to life is ultimately just as valid as the mothers by way of her own actions.

>' this is an attack on property in general.

It's not an attack on property, it's just an observation that ultimately understands that the fetus (which yet again was ideally brought to existence by the mother's tuition) cannot exist, nor survive without being inherently bonded with the mother in order to fully develop. Due to the decision of the mother to have sex and have a child, the child inherently due to the very way it exist, has a right to the mother's resources.

>Whether what they decide to do with their body is right or wrong is not a Libertarian discussion but a moral discussion to be decided by the individual

This is a sort of very odd point, because the whole conversation had here is ultimately one of property rights and ethics. It's not simply "up to the individual", otherwise murder would be justified in cases where it logically isn't.

>Second your question implies that some force was used against a child in order to starve it, not a lack of action.

I also stated that there's the possibility they could have even forgot, but it's irrelevant because ultimately the result is the same whichever-way the knife cuts. The child ultimately dies, and clearly there is someone at fault here: the parents.

>By the way you phrase it you already set it up as an act of aggression, which isn't applicable, I think, to the situation of a child in the womb.

It is quite applicable. Do the couple not have a complete right over their property? Then they can theoretically choose to just not feed the child, afterall it's THEIR money, their food and ultimately their labor which gets them both. In the same way that the mother owns her body and the resources that are ultimately given to the child by the body to grow and develop.

>The right or wrongness about abortion is up to philosophers and theologians to decide but with regards to property rights its pretty cut and dry, I'd say.

Not quite, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. Property rights are ultimately where "morality" as you use it come from, ergo this is a conversation we can have and it's not as "cut and dry" as you would think. It is a complex conversation but it's one that must be had.


 No.74044

>>73721

So I guess the government shouldn't pursue murderers or thieves then, because they'll still happen whether or not they're banned?


 No.74073

>>73850

A sleeping person can't consent. Does that mean it's okay to creep into someone's bedroom at night and suffocate them with a pillow? Ability to consent has no bearing on personhood.

>>73991

>person A kidnaps person B

>person B is tied up in person A's basement

>person A then decides person B is trespassing

>person B is unable to leave, due to the actions of person A

>person A kills person B

The foetus is in the mother due to the actions of the mother, not the fetus. If you're going to insist on pitting the two against each other like enemies, it's the foetus that's the victim here, not the mother.


 No.74076

>>73850

Do niggers count as people?


 No.74093

>>74076

They do, the statistics don't change that. Everyone who claims different doesn't know how statistics work.


 No.74105

>>73730

I'm pretty sure the state has reduced murder.


 No.74106

>>73749

Would you be willing to make this argument if you were the fetus about to be killed?


 No.74159

>>74106

Fetuses can't make argument you retard


 No.74193

>>74159

You're the one with no brain and no imagination.


 No.74218

>>74193

But the argument only exists in imagination.


 No.74737

>>73749

>The fetus' relationship with the mother is parasitic

she consented tho


 No.74756

>>74737

Except in the cases where she didn't.


 No.74795

>>74756

When's that? When she changed her mind?


 No.74796

>>74795

When she was legitimately raped? That's an obvious counter to the consent-argument.


 No.74798

>>74796

Don't they have morning-after pills for that? Is she going to wait a month before she decides "yeah, I was raped"?


 No.74800

>>74798

Fuck do I know? I'm neither a gynecologist nor a rapist.


 No.74801

>>74795

Concentrative methods can fail.


 No.74805

>>74800

Well then that's that. There's no need to do an abortion when pills are available to prevent conception from taking place. If you have to wait a month to say that you were raped and just it on your ass the whole time then you're a lying a bitch.


 No.74818

>>74805

What if a contraception method fails and it's only found out when it is too late for the morning after pills? Or it is not sold or cannot be delivered in time? Or when the rape victim is held captive? Or when they have to wait until the paycheck arrives to afford it? And so on and so on. There can be countless situations where emergency contraception can not be used yet the host did not consent to the parasite.




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