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/liberty/ - Liberty

Non-authoritarian Discussion of Politics, Society, News, and the Human Condition (Fun Allowed)
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WARNING! Free Speech Zone - all local trashcans will be targeted for destruction by Antifa.

File: c317dd09201f0e2⋯.jpg (65.77 KB, 627x768, 209:256, jj65Mg3-chPRBzODmpQd9761j4….jpg)

 No.73045

As libertarians, we agree that rights only exist in a negative context. However, most definitions of negative right seem to be inaccurate.

Like for example on Wiki article : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_rights#Criticisms

>Negative and positive rights are rights that respectively oblige either action (positive rights) or inaction (negative rights). These obligations may be of either a legal or moral character.

>Presumably, if a person has positive rights it implies that other people have positive duties (to take certain actions); whereas negative rights imply that others have negative duties (to avoid certain other actions).

>negative duties

What the hell is a "negative duty", negative implies absence by definition. How can you have an absent obligation, that's no different than just saying "you have an non-existent obligation". Which makes no sense.

Furthermore, duties are positive acts by definition. You can't have a "negative action", that doesn't exist. "Negative duty" is an oxymoron

This is how I would define Negative Rights: "the ability to do an act, insofar as it doesn't pose an obligation to someone else"

Negative Rights are nothing more than claims of personal autonomy, they're inactive and impose nothing on anyone. You're not obligated to respect my negative rights, however, if you do violate them it's unjustified. By that I mean, I would claim that you were never in your jurisdiction to cross such a line to begin with. Obligation implies possibility [Check out side note], specifically the possibility to disobey such an authority. Like, you wouldn't tell an apple it has the obligation to be a fruit, or tell a human they have the obligation to grow hair out of his head. The fact being no one has the "right" to violate my negative rights, because they had no authority to do so. When I talk about negative rights, im not describing a obligation, but a lack of authority.

[Side note] Obligation implies Ought, Ought implies Can, and Can implies possibility.

 No.73049

File: a21288e2215af1b⋯.jpg (762.82 KB, 1200x1671, 400:557, Rousseau_(painted_portrait….jpg)

>>73045

>As libertarians, we agree that rights only exist in a negative context.

Wrong. Almost all the original libertarian thinkers believed in positive rights.


 No.73050

File: a5833e4469f63ab⋯.jpg (127.78 KB, 720x481, 720:481, Ludwig1.jpg)

>>73049

Those aren't really Libertarians in any meaningful sense, especially in regards to the topic in question. Better luck next time tho fam.

>>73045

There was a really good paper a while ago that did a pretty fine job at explaining positive vs negative rights to normies that provides a good thesis on what negative rights are but I couldn't be fucked to remember where it's from.


 No.73077

>>73045

Well, what you say on negative duties is semantics, and nothing more, sorry. Call it a duty to abstain from certain actions, or call it having no duty but not having a right to do certain actions. Unless you're knees deep in analytical philosophy, it won't make a difference.

>>73049

Rousseau was not a libertarian, he was a totalitarian. I've been saying it for years, well before I knew that Bertrand de Jouvenel has been saying it for years, too.


 No.73079

>>73045

Rights have no limits


 No.73083

>>73079

I have the right to put my peepee up your bumbum and make the happy funtimes


 No.73086

>>73083

I have a Glock 38


 No.73089

File: 5a858005cc7a315⋯.png (570.3 KB, 760x800, 19:20, 11b25939bd0c3f5b01f6056ed3….png)

>>73086

>Emotivism

>Any variation

>Ever


 No.73099

Rights are permissions from the state. Read the exorcist with the big forehead


 No.73105

>>73079

so deep…


 No.73110

>>73077

Rousseau was a textbook classical liberal, how is that not libertarian?


 No.73116

>>73110

Because he wasn't liberal. Not in the slightest. You cannot be a totalitarian and a liberal, and a totalitarian he was, from seeing the state as an organism to his idea that you can force people to be free. Those are the facts, and labels don't change that.


 No.73117

>>73116

He wasn't a """totalitarian""", he was a liberal.


 No.73119

>>73117

He never was. He didn't even have a Liberal "phase." He wrote more in defense of the State than Liberty. Nothing can redeem the garbage that The Social Contract is and the damage it did. He thought he could use the force of public education and organized religion to beat his definition of Liberty into the minds of people. He didn't really care what religion it was as long as it was of use to his cause. Rousseau thought that all people are blank slates that only need the right stimulus to respond the same and their will was not to be taken seriously.


 No.73130

>>73117

Please. Come on. You did what I told you wouldn't work: Throw labels around. Again: If you believe that the state is an organism of its own, one that the individual is completely subordinate to, then you're not a liberal of any kind. If you believe you can force people to be free, then you're not a liberal. If you believe that all things shall be owned in common, and that the first person to declare a thing his own ought to have been struck down, then you're not a liberal. If you believe that participating in elections is the highest expression of freedom, then you are not a liberal.


 No.73138

>>73130

He was one of the godfathers of liberalism. Surely the definition scholars have used for centuries matters more than the one you made up right now. For hundreds of years academics all over the spectrum recognize Rousseau as a liberal.


 No.73157

>>73138

Argumentum ad verecundiam. Scholars can misuse definitions, too.




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