/liberty/ - Liberty

>>71393

I would take the roads out, thats a bit too vague. But otherwise, good job! I'll let you know if I remember some more state problems that could fit. Maybe "negative externalities"?

capitalism is a statism problem

you can't have it without the other

Statist problems can still be capitalist problems you retartds

Capitalism can co-exist with a state. Stop being leftist Jews and insisting words mean what you want them to mean.

They are capitalist problems, it's just that they're problems that come when capitalism acts along with a state

>>71433

These are problems with capitalism that are only problems because of state intervention

>>71440

there's no capitalism without state intervention

>>71478

>

>>71478

>>71433

Proof?

The modern state gave birth to capitalism and many of its institutions were founded by the bourgeois. They are immortally tied.

>>71510

>The modern state gave birth to capitalism

<The modern state gave birth to the millennias old human behavior of exchanging goods and services

Just because you say "x cannot exist without y" doesnt make it true.

>>71511

>exchanging goods is capitalism

<Capitalism is an economic system and an ideology based on private ownership of the means of production and their operation for profit.[1][2][3] Characteristics central to capitalism include private property, capital accumulation, wage labor, voluntary exchange, a price system and competitive markets.[4][5] In a capitalist market economy, decision-making and investment are determined by the owners of the factors of production in financial and capital markets, whereas prices and the distribution of goods are mainly determined by competition in the market.[6][7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism

>>71497

Capitalism needs force, or a state to protect private property rights. It's the historical reality: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inclosure_Acts

And here's your REDpill on corporatism:

https://thehobbesian.wordpress.com/2013/05/10/corporatism-is-capitalism-you-morons/

>>71512

I said it time and time again: If your definition was correct, then we'd have to stop calling ourselves capitalists, would pick another label, and then all debates would still be the same except we'd call ourselves differently. In other words, it's semantics.

>>71514

>Capitalism needs force, or a state to protect private property rights.

Protecting any right requires force, including personal property and bodily integrity. You have yet to show how the state is required to apply such force.

>It's the historical reality:

So are you saying that commerce didn't exist before the enclosure acts, or capital, or private property?

>>71497

Have you ever seen large scale capitalism without state intervention? It sounds good on paper but does not work in reality, simply because it ignores human nature, which is inherently collectivist.

>>71555

>simply because it ignores human nature, which is inherently collectivist.

Most collectivist societies are either primitive and tribal, or highly statist. Meanwhile, individualism first came to blossom with the rise of Christianity, which was extremely anarchic at times. You have some explaining to do, anon.

>>71539

>I said it time and time again: If your definition was correct, then we'd have to stop calling ourselves capitalists, would pick another label

Let's go with voluntaryism, shall we? You are choosing to support the status quo. You believe that all property is held for legitimate reasons, and you reject any coercion whatsoever to change this. How is that a semantic difference? You seek to preserve the current conditions of our existence.

>>71542

>Private property is a necessary condition of the exchange of goods and services

Except everytime non-private entities exchange goods.

>>71594

>Except everytime non-private entities exchange goods.

If a thief were to steal a car and sell it, we would not say that this exchange is legitimate. He is exercising ownership over the vehicle, however illegitimate the exchange may be. The same applies to non-private entities which achieve their ends by the same means (theft). Much like thieves, they exercise ownership over items that aren't legitimately theirs but nevertheless there is still an implied ownership over the items in question on the part of the thief. Unless that's not what you're referring to?

>>71601

>muh legitimacy

What does it even matter? Whatever is "legitimate" or not changes constantly throughout human history, depending on the ruling superstructure. Seems like you are trying to impose some arbitrary transhistorical axiom onto people.

>If a thief were to steal a car and sell it

<every non-private transaction is literal theft

Fiscal authorities, cooperatives, NGOs, public institutions, government trade, trade unions, military, national banks etc. all perform exchanges which are non-private.

>>71594

>You are choosing to support the status quo. You believe that all property is held for legitimate reasons, and you reject any coercion whatsoever to change this.

Did I say that? Or are you, perhaps, making this up? Does it, by any chance, contradict key tenets of anarchocapitalism, especially when it comes to the property of governments and their cronies?

>legitimate" or not changes constantly throughout human history, depending on the ruling superstructure. Seems like you are trying to impose some arbitrary transhistorical axiom onto people.

In other words, morality isn't objective, it's historical?

>>71564

Humans evolved to be statist in nature, what's there to explain? It's a fact.

>>71638

>Did I say that? Or are you, perhaps, making this up?

Well, enlighten me. You don't believe in coercion, right? So if you'd topple the government, all the property relations would be preserved because you consider private property legitimate, whereas government propery is supposedly not. Here is the thing, where do you make the distinction between "legitimate" property owners and "government cronies"? Historically, most pieces of private property was at some point given to the bourgeoisie through government coercion. How far back do you go? Are you going to scour medieval church records for occasions of "homesteading"? Are you going to give indigenous nations back their land? If I'm going to take this AnCap meme about homesteading seriously, this is going to be the biggest redistribution in the history of mankind.

>In other words, morality isn't objective, it's historical?

Yes.

>>71652

>morality isn't objective, it's historical

Well, that's going to go over like a lead balloon with the idealists of the world. Good luck enforcing a naked historical morality on people. Hey, 2017 is almost over. You gonna be nostalgic for [present year] later, too?

There's no need to go back through for the biggest redistribution in history. Sane people don't judge others for the sins of their ancestors. We only need to care for the span of ONE lifetime.

>>71617

>mixed list of public and private institutions

Your NGOs are all private by definition. Your government trade can be privatized if it's real, and isn't relevant if it's not. Your trade unions are private. Your cooperatives are private. You've got a bugnuts definition of private that appears to be a mislabeled definition of your outgroup, with all of your in-groups miraculously not private.

>>71617

>Whatever is "legitimate" or not changes constantly throughout human history

Not really, just because some Mongolian has a different definition of what is legitimate and what is not doesn't mean that they're correct.

>Fiscal authorities, cooperatives, NGOs, public institutions, government trade, trade unions, military, national banks etc. all perform exchanges which are non-private.

Yeah and pretty much all of those that you've named are funded through theft, what's your point?

>>71649

>Humans evolved to be statist in nature

prove

>>71690

not him but this here is interesting and revealing

careerplanner.com/MB2/TypeInPopulation-Males-Females.cfm

>>71690

>>71650

https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/history/

https://www.edx.org/course/subject/history

FUCKING

ROADS

>>71705

>cfm

aint clicin dat shit nigga