[ / / / / / / / / / / / / / ] [ dir / aus / bbbb / chaos / general / htg / late / sonyeon / strek ]

/liberty/ - Liberty

Non-authoritarian Discussion of Politics, Society, News, and the Human Condition (Fun Allowed)
Name
Email
Subject
Comment *
File
* = required field[▶ Show post options & limits]
Confused? See the FAQ.
Flag
Embed
(replaces files and can be used instead)
Oekaki
Show oekaki applet
(replaces files and can be used instead)
Options
dicesidesmodifier
Password (For file and post deletion.)

Allowed file types:jpg, jpeg, gif, png, webm, mp4, pdf
Max filesize is 16 MB.
Max image dimensions are 15000 x 15000.
You may upload 5 per post.


WARNING! Free Speech Zone - all local trashcans will be targeted for destruction by Antifa.

File: 2ac76bea5086c1a⋯.jpg (122.91 KB, 934x534, 467:267, classcuck1.jpg)

 No.69452

hi cucks, it has been a long time from when i shut your asses up in a discussion, so i decided to visit you again so to look how much have you improved.

what i want is a list of the incoherences, errors and uncertainities within the Marxian School of economics, a description of what socialism is (in theory) supposed to "work"………………without coming up with:

>muh mudpie

>muh transformation """"problem""""

>muh big gubbermand

>muh socialism is something to establish, rather than something that will naturally emerge from the social contradictions caused by automation replacing human labor

see you later

 No.69453

200 years of automation, we're no closer to achieving 'natural' socialism, and any attempt to introduce it using forcible methods has failed.

You're not very confident about any of this if you think you can just forbid people from using certain arguments because you don't like them.

Maybe you should go back to /leftypol/.


 No.69454

File: 341470920a9885d⋯.jpg (92.33 KB, 850x400, 17:8, margsbtfomls.jpg)

>>69453

>first line

not an argument m8

> you can just forbid people from using certain arguments because you don't like them.

it's because they are fucking stupid (mudpie, trasfromation problem) or simply retarded strawmen (socialism=big government; marxism=utopian socialism)

i could explain it further, but im having lunch now


 No.69456

File: 3858e76ee7e4ded⋯.jpg (83.58 KB, 800x500, 8:5, 20100311160253.jpg)

>>69454

>socialism=big government is a strawman trust me guys nevermind all those +big government+ socialist parties


 No.69457

>>69452

>>muh socialism is something to establish, rather than something that will naturally emerge from the social contradictions caused by automation replacing human labor

That's not how the burden of proof works. For a "scientific" socialist, you sure don't want to do things the scientific way.

>>69454

>the real movement which abolishes the present state of things

Is ancap communism? What about fascism? This is the vaguest description I've ever heard for anything and it's completely useless.


 No.69458

File: 943de2c66d5af36⋯.jpg (Spoiler Image, 285.3 KB, 775x504, 775:504, class2.jpg)

>>69456

of course you fucking moron, socialist proudhon wanted a totalitarian government. now kys

>>69457

>For a "scientific" socialist, you sure don't want to do things the scientific way.

stop using fancy words you don't even comprehend. "scientific socialism" is just the traditional name to call marxism to differenciate it from utopian socialism (which ignores the main laws of evolution from one mode of production to another), also you are missunderstanding the scientific method by missinterpreting the information "experiments" gave us (in politics and economics you just can't do experiments, but observations) and in that sense, the base-axioms of the marxian theory of economics are completely falseable.

it's nothing like marx got it right in everything (for example, he foresaw that the hard, manufacturing sector of economy wouldn't be surpassed by the financial sector in the future, which is clearly not the case in our reality) but the main conclusions derived from his method are pretty much invariable throughout the time (who cares about capitalism being unprodductive when free, it's only a catalyst to the evolution of our mode of production).

>>69457

>Is ancap communism? What about fascism? This is the vaguest description I've ever heard for anything and it's completely useless.

look clethus, ancap and fascism are roughly the same, as both advocates for private property.

but more importantly, both ADVOCATES for something, whereas marxism isn't something you want to establish (like an utopian system where private property exist without a state), but a natural, unavoidable step we will go once automation of work is high enough to abolish law of value.

stay cucked redneck


 No.69459

>>69452

>communism will establish itself

then why shitfling online about it if it is inevitable?


 No.69460

>>69458

>now kys

No facebook memes please.


 No.69461

>>69459

because marxism is a meme (in the dawkin sense) and as such is must reproduce itself to be established through the physical action, duh

>>69460

make me asshat


 No.69462

>>69459

marxism is a meme (in the dawkin sense) and as such it will reproduce trough communication and will establish itself troughout human action

>>69460

make me asshat


 No.69463

>>69460

>>>69459

>marxism is a meme (in the dawkin sense) and as such it will reproduce trough communication and will establish itself troughout human action

>>>69460

>make me asshat


 No.69464

File: 1466ad560efbda0⋯.png (134.39 KB, 1289x502, 1289:502, Untitled.png)

why does /liberty/ support imperialism? Why do you wish to hold humanity back?


 No.69465

>>69458

>it's completely falsifiable

Lmao see >>69453


 No.69466

File: c4538519ca900d6⋯.jpg (65.82 KB, 940x720, 47:36, hoohaha lad.jpg)

>>69458

> claims to be for the working class

> proceeds to insult some guy by calling him derogatory names for someone who's in the poor working class.

Nothing unusual here.


 No.69467

>>69458

>laws of evolution

>scientific

top lel

>both advocates for private property

topper lel

>marxism isn't something you want to establish

>a natural, unavoidable step

toppest lel

>stay cucked redneck

stay asshurt yankee


 No.69468

FIX YOUR SHIT PORCH MONKEY

>>69458

>laws of evolution

>scientific

top lel

>both advocates for private property

topper lel

>marxism isn't something you want to establish

>a natural, unavoidable step

toppest lel

>stay cucked redneck

stay asshurt yankee

FIX YOUR SHIT PORCH MONKEY


 No.69469

File: 787490cb5bea32b⋯.jpg (40.71 KB, 600x405, 40:27, 1454824983431.jpg)

>>69464

>Imperialism meme and argument with normalfag since arguments on /liberty/ don't end well for communists

I mean, I guess?


 No.69470

>>69464

>Imperialism

We're not the one forcing our ideology on people and creating mass starvation.


 No.69471

File: 8c8281d9e264f80⋯.gif (1.6 MB, 228x180, 19:15, 1391227671682.gif)

>automation will lead to an infinite amount of resources

>no one will ever need to fix the machines which are constantly run longer and faster than they are designed


 No.69472

>>69452

>it has been a long time from when i shut your asses up in a discussion

>people stopped talking to me when I relentlessly kept talking out my ass, so that must make me right and them stupid

Okie doke, kiddo.

>inb4 "not an argument"

Not trying. You're not worth it.


 No.69473

>>69452

Who the hell is this guy?

>what i want is a list of the incoherences, errors and uncertainities within the Marxian School of economics, a description of what socialism is (in theory) supposed to "work"………………without coming up with:

Oh, so without coming up with any argument you don't like, and have utterly failed to reply to? How about this:

>Knowledge problem

>Calculation problem

>Historical determinism a shit

>Confused value theory

>Utterly confused methodology, inb4 dialectic materialism/"Hegel somehow!"

>No definition of class that's independent of the capitalist mode of production

>>69456

>also you are missunderstanding the scientific method by missinterpreting the information "experiments" gave us (in politics and economics you just can't do experiments, but observations)

You cannot do observations either without an a priori basis, yet this is exactly what dumbasses try to do who use a historical method in economics.

>look clethus, ancap and fascism are roughly the same, as both advocates for private property.

"Fascism" isn't even a meaningful designation. Hitler and Mussolini weren't fans of private property, they expanded state ownership of the means of production inb4 privatization, the proeprty and played with the thought of establishing socialism, they just never went as far as the Russians or Chinese. Pinochet and Franco left private property largely alone, but they also weren't as totalitarian or revolutionary.

>but more importantly, both ADVOCATES for something, whereas marxism isn't something you want to establish (like an utopian system where private property exist without a state), but a natural, unavoidable step we will go once automation of work is high enough to abolish law of value.

Then why do you try so hard to establish it if it will work out on its own? Why spread the word, then? And also, why did you swallow the post-scarcity pill, holy shit?


 No.69474

File: 9e7266e5b7bb4ed⋯.png (749 KB, 850x946, 425:473, I don't like what you're t….png)

File: 6a57cabe6646cfb⋯.jpg (44.55 KB, 445x638, 445:638, I'm british and what is th….jpg)

File: 4c377a2a8d86a06⋯.png (87.8 KB, 5000x5000, 1:1, I seriously hope you don't….png)

File: bcff8ec3966a9ec⋯.jpg (39.69 KB, 312x338, 12:13, implying implications.jpg)

File: e418ba99f51e889⋯.jpg (13.43 KB, 287x324, 287:324, shigmurai.jpg)

>>69464

>Winning against a political debate

>Against a teenager

>"Look guys, my ideology is superior!"


 No.69475

File: ffb63401a98086d⋯.jpg (117.61 KB, 1916x1079, 1916:1079, smiling william.jpg)

>>69474

>Winning against a political debate

>against

Man, such a retarded mistake. Hope it won't starve fifty million people to death.


 No.69480

File: 7573f77dd4ef6f1⋯.jpg (56.17 KB, 1022x547, 1022:547, 7573f77dd4ef6f1b9e6eb363c0….jpg)

Is this the best leftypol can come up with?

>i'm gonna refuse to define my own position

>mostly so you have to define it for me

>now I can claim your definition is incorrect and ignore your arguments

>also, some of those arguments are irrefutable so don't make them pls

If you want to have a discussion, tell us exactly what you believe, why you believe it, and why we should believe it, so we can refute it or be convinced.


 No.69485

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>69480

Oh wow, he really showed that 18-year-old, eh? Surely, that isn't considered relevant because the poster's mental age is about the same?

>>69480

Pretty much this. This is standard Marxist bullshittery. We've had enough of derailing when they run out of responses, or starting a thread on their board to plead for help, or halfway through the discussion say you are only allowed to argue from their definition of X thing. Just go home /leftypol/. Nobody takes you seriously. Growing in members doesn't change that.


 No.69486

>>69485

First reply was supposed to be to the gommiefag. *


 No.69490

File: 5f7b51abdeea2e0⋯.png (68.78 KB, 300x300, 1:1, stirpich.png)

>>69466

> claims to be for the working class

i never said that, i myself have a little property, and i depend on property to survive. as well i admit a high ammount of the working class still have some trust on the system, being socialism not ready to emerge.

>>69467

>southern

>"evolution is just a theory"

dude are you doing this on purpose?

>>69471

machines will do the fixing procedures in the future and the service sectors will be uncommodifiable.

>>69473

>Knowledge problem

>Calculation problem

both are pretty much the same problem, i forgot to tell you not to use this shit too, but since you already have done it, i will answer:

the "calculation problem" argument stands, just like many other austrian school "rebutals" of marxian economics, in a flawed sight on socialism, as a system where a state can dictate prices, generating inefficiences, just as what had already happened in statist regimes in history.

you shall realize this argument is based on two disjunt assumptions:

>socialism=statism

and

>states can't allocate resources

being the first statement total bollockery and the second one habing many counter-examples (lange model is my first bet, but any labour voucher/cockshott related stuff would work, ignoring how utopian these ideas are).

>Historical determinism a shit

economics isn't a quantum, truly ramdom system. it's at most a conglomerate of chaotical processes and as such it can be studied within rigid margins with a calculable uncertainity.

(and even, if it was a quantum system decoherence will make the macro-characteristics of the system to converge into a measure within a little margin of error, ignoring quantum ramdom events also have calculable probabilities to happen)

it's nothing as marxian economics could predict every exact aspect of the future by looking at the current information, but to predict long term stuff it has worked a hell of a lot.

>Confused value theory

i hope you don't be refering to the mudpie argument are you? there is this video about it made by kapitalism101 and it could explain further why it's retarded.

in my point of view (and apparently Wiliam Clare Roberts's one), LTV can be derived from the decoherences of the marginal theory, at large scales.

>Utterly confused methodology, inb4 dialectic materialism/"Hegel somehow!"

materialism is easy to comprehend, it's just: "people need to eat and to wear clothes before they can make science or intelectual development"

hegel in my view is totally expendable, but marxism is quite beautiful once you view it through a dialectical point of view.

>No definition of class that's independent of the capitalist mode of production

of course there is, class antagonism have existed in every other mode of production before capitalism (slavery, hidraulic depotism(no bullying pls) ,feudalism).

>You cannot do observations either without an a priori basis, yet this is exactly what dumbasses try to do who use a historical method in economics.

the theoretical basis is historical materialism and LTV.

>"Fascism" isn't even a meaningful designati….

state ownership is also private property, and it's even worse because no competition apply.

>Then why do you try so hard to establish it if it will work out on its own? Why spread the word, then? And also, why did you swallow the post-scarcity pill, holy shit?

i personally don't. i enjoy capitalism currently, but that doesn't mean i must fool myself with crap-ideology.

also post scarcity is needed for socialism to emerge, it's like the basics and you should know that.

btw im the guy who once did an austrian school rebuttal thread in 2016.


 No.69491

File: 4e5f3b080e2de84⋯.png (138.64 KB, 500x508, 125:127, spooks.png)

>>69490

It's irrelevant if the community decides through something called a state or not. Any calculations and adjustments based on indirect means like voting are susceptible to a speculator who must ultimately validate his risks.

>post-scarcity is needed for socialism

>when that there are no more economic goods we can finally calculate all economic activity


 No.69492

File: 03dcac6911ccc5b⋯.png (52.51 KB, 346x364, 173:182, 1435267805102.png)

>>69490

>>"evolution is just a theory"

I was talking about the commie theory of social evolution, but biological evolution is literally a theory too. It's also a much more cohesive and sane theory than creationism., but you'll probably ignore this part of the comment.

>muh post scarcity

So it'll never happen? Human demands are infinite after all, and quite a few things will never even come close to that.

>I totally btfoed you guys once, you gotta believe me

>just don't use arguments x, y, or z against me, they don't count because I said so

wtf I'm a commie now


 No.69493

>>69490

>hurr socialism calculation problems assume the state

>we just call it not a state and we btfo Mises

What a retarded you are top kek!


 No.69498

File: 7ffff3c6bfd4a87⋯.jpg (6.89 KB, 197x196, 197:196, 1507360646517.jpg)

>>69461

So it's not inevitable, then


 No.69499

>>69490

>both are pretty much the same problem

Oh boy.

>you shall realize this argument is based on two disjunt assumptions:

Nope. The calculation-problem is about the impossibility of rationally allocating factors of production in the absence of a pricing mechanism. It doesn't depend on there being a state at all. It would hold just as true in a system of anarchocommunism.

Cockshott and Cottrell didn't refute this at all. They tried to, multiple times, always in slightly different ways. The first time around, they haven't even read Mises, for all I know. Don't be as stupid as them and read Mises' original essay, otherwise, your opinion is frankly worthless.

The knowledge-problem is about the impossibility of planning a large economy because of missing information. It's a far weaker argument, not without merit, but very dubious. There's zero overlap between it and the calculation-problem. Mises even explained how the calculation-problem would persist even if the planner was near omniscient. So, read him, or you're a faggot.


 No.69500

>>69490

>btw im the guy who once did an austrian school rebuttal thread in 2016.

Nope. Doesn't ring a bell. I don't tend to remember autists who hide their ignorance of the calculation-problem behind ten layers of "muh quantum physics".


 No.69503

>>69454

>retarded strawmen socialism=big government

You need an encroaching state to ban private property.


 No.69504

>>69461

>>69462

>>69463

Is this the gondola poster? The "argumentation" style is similar.


 No.69509

File: 2a2d222f142f233⋯.pdf (167.58 KB, hipercálculo.pdf)

>>69499

let me explain myself in an easier way so you can understand better:

knowledge problem implies that people don't like when a dictator makes them to produce shit no one buy.

calculation problem implies you can't allocate scarce resources without a prices, thus without private property

so if i wanted to avoid the calculation problem, by arguing i can establish a state to allocate the resources, then the knowledge problem arrives to prove me wrong.

the deepest conclusion of all this is that prices, and thus property emerges naturally within a system where scarcity still exists (aka capitalism is the most efficient way to plan our production).

of course the problem with this is that capitalism is considered as an unmutable state of human organization, when in reality it has only existed for less than 400 years as the main mode of production, whereas other modes of production had lasted much more and were certainly not the ultimate way to organize production at all. just as how primitive communism was replaced by slavery, which was also replaced by feudalism, that later got replaced by capitalism,capitalism will one day be replaced by another mode of production once the economic infrastructure change not to let law of value apply anymore, this is something practically innevitable.

and as you can see, this two headed argument doesn't apply on the slightly if law of value is abolished.

of course, the debate now is about whether this argument are even true within capitalism, which is something i would doubt, as you can allocate resources using the lange model, or using labour vouchers (of course these ideas have some flaws viewed from an orthodox marxist point of view, but take it as a challenge to you, to a rebutte these proposals).

also studying quantum mechanics is quite interesant, as subatomic interactions are the most ramdom thing possible and even so it's completely studied with maths, thing that austrian cucks refuse to do with economics because they want to mask their inneptitude or immanent failure.


 No.69511

>>69509

>the deepest conclusion of all this is that prices, and thus property emerges naturally within a system where scarcity still exists

Now you're getting it. And scarcity is a fact of life, so capitalism and property rights is the only rational conclusion.

>capitalism will one day be replaced by another mode of production once the economic infrastructure change not to let law of value apply anymore

That's on you to prove, something you've basically refused to do so far.

>thing that austrian cucks refuse to do with economics

Austrians are willing to use econometrics, but we recognize the fact that empirical studies aren't a practical way of doing things most of the time.

>inneptitude

The Austrian school is comparatively small only because laissez-faire isn't politically expedient for the powers that be. They benefit far more from an interventionist system, and so Austrians get pushed off to the side despite predicting the great depression, the post WWII boom, stagflation, and the 2008 recession, none of which were seen coming by Keynes' fanboys.


 No.69512

>>69509

>let me explain myself in an easier way so you can understand better

That's not an easy way, it's a coherwnt way. Somewhat coherent, that is. Your shitty englidh alone makes it hard to understand you.

>calculation problem implies you can't allocate scarce resources without a prices, thus without private property

Specifically factors of production. Anyway, pretty close, but after I have already defined it myself, so no reason to pat yourself on the back.

>the deepest conclusion of all this is that prices, and thus property emerges naturally within a system where scarcity still exists (aka capitalism is the most efficient way to plan our production).

That's not a conclusion. If anything, it's a premise. And property is not a "conclusion" of prices, if anything, prices imply property, so it's the other way around. The Mengerian account of money is independent of the calculation-problem but not of exchange.

>of course the problem with this is that capitalism is considered as an unmutable state of human organization, when in reality it has only existed for less than 400 years as the main mode of production, whereas other modes of production had lasted much more and were certainly not the ultimate way to organize production at all. just as how primitive communism was replaced by slavery, which was also replaced by feudalism, that later got replaced by capitalism

It assumes no such thing, and your facts are incorrect. The Marxist historical classifications are worthless, and not even consistent throghout his body of work. They once included a Slavic and an Asiatic mode of production, but Marx forgot about them.

And your statement that the calculation-problem only arises in a capitalism is false. It's just that prior economies were so static and their production chains so short that they could occasionally get away with incorporating aspects of a command economy. In a dynamic economy with longer production chains, the calculation-problem becomes acute.

>capitalism will one day be replaced by another mode of production once the economic infrastructure change not to let law of value apply anymore, this is something practically innevitable.

You have no strong grasp of the calculation-problem, let me tell you. Seriously, fix this.

>{and as you can see, this two headed argument doesn't apply on the slightly if law of value is abolished.

Honestly, I have no idea what that even means.


 No.69520

>>69503

what if ppl consent tho?


 No.69543

>>69512

>It's just that prior economies were so static and their production chains so short that they could occasionally get away with incorporating aspects of a command economy. In a dynamic economy with longer production chains, the calculation-problem becomes acute.

That's on you to prove.


 No.69545

>>69543

What's there to prove about it? When production chains are short, then you can figure out how to allocate capital goods simply by knowing what commodities they produce. When you have productions chains that are longer, capital goods primarily produce other capital goods and not just commodities, and then this method for allocation becomes impossible.

Before you ask me to prove anything more, look up Mises' essay.


 No.69548

>>69543

No worries.It's always on us to prove everything, even your arguments.




[Return][Go to top][Catalog][Nerve Center][Cancer][Post a Reply]
Delete Post [ ]
[]
[ / / / / / / / / / / / / / ] [ dir / aus / bbbb / chaos / general / htg / late / sonyeon / strek ]