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/liberty/ - Liberty

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WARNING! Free Speech Zone - all local trashcans will be targeted for destruction by Antifa.

File: 415beac1ef35c22⋯.png (970.9 KB, 1440x2560, 9:16, Screenshot_20170828-174014.png)

 No.66838

How do you respond to this scientific research?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2095549/Right-wingers-intelligent-left-wingers-says-controversial-study--conservative-politics-lead-people-racist.html

People with over 100+ IQ only post here

(naizs, fash, nationalists, or any other low IQ rightists don't even bother posting thx)

 No.66841

>>66838

>Canadian academics

>Ontario

>Psychological Science

>paper known for being extremely liberal skewed

>1958 and 1970, which are two periods of time with some of the least tolerant people alive

>Vague questions like "Schools should teach children to obey authority"

How the fuck does anyone believe this shit?


 No.66842

Meanwhile in reality, lefties are the ones who hate reason, logic, rationality, statistics and facts.

Ben Shapiro has destroyed you commies so many times, your ass must be red like a tomato.

The right understands reality.

The left lives in fairy La La land.


 No.66844

>>66841

>Vague questions like "Schools should teach children to obey authority"

Conservatives and liberals will clearly diverge on this. Questions have to be vague, because they're just trying to see where you stand ideologically, not what you think of a specific policy.

>1958 and 1970, which are two periods of time with some of the least tolerant people alive

Why would the time period affect it? Tolerance vs intolerance will still have the same basis in the brain. Stupid people will still probably have a greater thirst for stability.


 No.66846

File: d30d572b98b25c0⋯.png (364.68 KB, 658x720, 329:360, d30d572b98b25c0ad604c8c22d….png)

>>66842

Feminist/SJW "Left" is like Alt-Right/White-Nationalist "Right"

(low IQ)

Ben has never debated non idpol Leftists like Zizek or Chomsky.

Ben did okay in that debate with that crazy guy from TYT, but they are Liberals not Leftists…


 No.66848

>>66846

Nobody wants to debate 'real communists' because

1) you never explain what communism is

2) what works you do have are totally unappealing

3) attempts to introduce socialism have resulted in misery


 No.66849

Libertarians have been proven to have the highest average IQ of all political persuasions. Still seems like understanding that smashing a window doesn't create wealth wouldn't be something that takes a genius to figure out but whatever.


 No.66850

>conservatives

>right wing politics

Do I have to show you the horseshoe?


 No.66851

File: 9c35cbefb1dcb58⋯.png (250.87 KB, 2566x1124, 1283:562, conservative = low iq.png)


 No.66859

File: bb4e7c742e0ec65⋯.png (386.8 KB, 765x650, 153:130, bb4e7c742e0ec6597f8ca44d10….png)

>>66848

>I won't debate because "commies"

You are the exact type of person Ben Shapiro hates. "I won't debate because you disagree with me" lets ban Milo from speaking! Alt-Right and SJWs are almost exactly the same. No one should force you to debate, but when you refuse its like saying "I have no arguments".

>>66849

I would not say Right-Libertarians have the highest IQ. But they are much higher than Nationalists and Fascists for sure.

>>66850

My bad, I know some Right-Libertarians are socially Left…


 No.66863

>>66859

>"I won't debate because you disagree with me"

That's not what he said at all, good job being a prime example of your own OP being dead wrong. Let's do this play by play because your reading comprehension is clearly lacking.

>>66848 His post, for reference.

>Nobody wants to debate 'real communists' because

Okay he tells you that no one wants to debate you, and then readies himself to make a list

>1) you never explain what communism is

"worker control of the means of production" is what you usually give. After that vague ass sentence, your entire ideology goes to shit because every communist will give you a different answer. Your ideology is founded on being vague because when it stops being a good sounding thing that will get all of the lemmings to follow you, people will be able to pick it apart and show that it is just jealousy towards those who have more than you.

>2) what works you do have are totally unappealing

Which sounds like pretty much what I just said. You either have vague works that never go into any detail, pipe dreams built on sand, or you have the long ramblings of a petulant child who doesn't get the new toy he wants.

>3) attempts to introduce socialism have resulted in misery

Every single country that has ever tried to introduce your balls out retarded ideology has failed spectacularly resulting is the deaths of many, showing that it is an impossible ideal that you strive for.


 No.66868

>>66863

This. Good post.


 No.66870

Science is fake news


 No.66872

>>66844

I dunno man, I remember during the Obama years many liberals kept saying you should never question the president's authority. Funny since they were the opposite under Bush.


 No.66875

That you should stop spamming five year old articles about even older studies all over this site, for one. Also to stop phoneposting like a fucking Redditor.

There are studies like this that pop up all the time, each with little skews for political one-upmanship. Everyone twists the data to find some clickbait conclusion.


 No.66877

>>66863

>no reply

lefycucks lose another one


 No.66880

>>66838

not every right winger is a conservatist you moron


 No.66884

>>66863

Just because you don't haven't bothered understanding something doesn't mean the concept's vague. I guarantee that if you'd preach about the virtues of capitalism while in a hypothetical communist society you'd just be met with equal confusion


 No.66889

>>66838

>How do you respond to this scientific research?

Only 15000 people?

These "studies" are outdated (british studies: 1958 and 1970; american cognitive studies: 1986), and the sample size is too little (15000 people).

>The researchers also compared their results against a 1986 American study which included tests of cognitive ability and questions assessing prejudice against homosexuals

I don't get it, who is involved in these studies? American or british population? What's the correlation between american and british social studies?


 No.66890

>>66884

I did try to understand it, but the sources I have read so far didn't answer it and probably won't. I still don't know what the proper way for worker's ownership over the means of production would be, nor how to find this out, and the answers I heard range from syndicalism to direct democracy to soviets to letting a supercomputer handle it somehow.


 No.66896

>>66863

The 'vague' criticism falls apart because public ownership is not a hard concept. Not to mention the fact that well read people would outline specific things and features of capitalism which must be abolished in order to transition to socialism. These are things like wage labor and production for exchange. So already starting off like shit. It's interesting that he criticizes socialism for being "vague" and then goes on to not make any specific criticisms but I digress.

Socialism has had many tangible, beneficial economic results. These include raising the GDP per capita in the USSR before it took a massive downturn when it was dissolved and embraced capitalism and became the Russian Federation as we know it. That is just one benefit. Try actually reading socialist literature before you think you know enough to criticize it.

The last part is just false. Try another Pinochet and we can see whose ideology is balls out retarded again. Hint: It's not socialism, it's free market capitalism


 No.66897

>>66890

>I did try to understand it

What is it exactly that you tried to understand? How would you name it?


 No.66898

>>66838

yes because if we were snarter we'd sell a lie (socialism) to get us in power


 No.66899

>>66898

Define socialism and explain how it is a "lie"


 No.66902

>>66890

Okay, fair enough. There is a split between socialists and libertarian socialists on what workers ownership over the means of production means. For libertarian socialists, it simply means that the people who (for example)worke/ in the factories should both own them, and make all decisions over the process of manufacturing. This article is a pretty good example of how that may look like in reality.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/18/cope-capitalism-failed-factory-workers-greek-workplace-control

While socialists like you mention often promote state-owned and controlled workplaces. There is no proper answer to your question since socialists don't agree on the definition, and why they don't agree is because of reasons found way back in the history of socialist movements, which is a whole other story


 No.66903

>>66863

Im responding to this because it was linked on /leftypol/.

The only real point you have beyond muh hundred gorillions is that our goals are more vague outlines rather than a specific plan. This is the whole point. Scientific Socialism is anti-utopian and you are demanding that we be more idealist and utopian (while, ironically, ridiculing us for being utopian at the same time).

To quote Marx:

>Communism is for us not a state of affairs which is to be established, an ideal to which reality [will] have to adjust itself. We call communism the real movement which abolishes the present state of things. The conditions of this movement result from the premises now in existence.

Marxist theory should not be looked on as a rigid dogma, but as guidelines. We need to know what the problem is, what we want and a broad-strokes plan of how to get what we want, but our goals and movement are largely shaped by the really existing conditions of the place and time.

In short, you're the utopians, /liberty/, not us. Stop projecting.


 No.66906

>>66896

>Socialism has had many tangible, beneficial economic results. These include raising the GDP per capita in the USSR

>GDP

Which is not directly linked to the rise of standard of living

>capitalism which must be abolished in order to transition to socialism

I love when you try to use historical materialism as an excuse for literally everything.


 No.66909

>>66896

>Try another Pinochet and we can see whose ideology is balls out retarded again. Hint: It's not socialism, it's free market capitalism

As far as dictators go, Pinochet was still nice. Incredibly brutal, unlike Franco, but nothing compared to most socialist dictators. And he possibly saved that country from famine, and definitely brought it prosperity, judging by the inflation-rates under Allende. Even if we assume that Pinochet was somehow an anarchocapitalist free market McDictator, our ideology still looks better than yours, sorry. Not that I'd assume that, and I have no idea who the hell started that meme FBI. As far as I know, the copper industry was still partially nationalized under Pinochet, and his currency was based on the dollar standard and not a gold standard. Free market capitalism? Not by a long stretch.

>>66902

If there's no consensus on what the formula means, then it makes little sense to drop it. You'd at least have to acknowledge the controversy, explain the possible options and possibly why your side is correct and not the other, but I rarely see that happen. If you do that - like you just did - then you cannot be charged with your ideology being too vague.

The socialists who interpret it as workers having their own factory are the ones that we could find common grounds with. If they're correct, if bosses are unnecessary and workers can manage their own affairs just as well without them, and if that really increases productivity, then at the very least they'll find a niché for themselves, and they may possibly become predominant. If anarchocapitalism lost out that way, then none of us would have grounds to complain. Sadly, the debate rarely works out that way, but it could.

Statist socialism is a whole different thing. As I see it, it categorically cannot work, and that's one of the reasons why you cannot plausibly explain why one alternative is better than any other. When a statist socialist explains to me that the USSR-model wasn't real socialism, but the Cockshott-model would be, it frankly sounds like a bad excuse. I also never heard a reason why any one model would be better, besides the supercomputers. Only that one is socialism, and the other somehow isn't. So I'd say a major part of the problem is bad rhetorics, but not the only one.

>>66903

>Marxist theory should not be looked on as a rigid dogma, but as guidelines. We need to know what the problem is, what we want and a broad-strokes plan of how to get what we want, but our goals and movement are largely shaped by the really existing conditions of the place and time.

Marxism fails if you interpret it this way, too. Marxism was handled flexibly by every regime, and most of the time, it was a grand mistake. The exceptions were policies that made the system more market-like, but that's hardly a point in your favor.


 No.66915

>>66896

Right wing dictatorships (something we only joke about here on /liberty/) still don't kill anywhere near as many people as left wing dictatorships.

>>66903

>We call communism the real movement which abolishes the present state of things

That is vague as hell. Anarcho-capitalism abolishes the present state of things, do we count as socialists?


 No.66918

>>66896

>Pinochet

Yes a fascist dictator is a great example of libertarianism


 No.66920

File: cf8eda58e60e159⋯.jpg (125.21 KB, 711x767, 711:767, communism vs imperfect cap….jpg)

>>66896

>The 'vague' criticism falls apart because public ownership is not a hard concept. Not to mention the fact that well read people would outline specific things and features of capitalism which must be abolished in order to transition to socialism. These are things like wage labor and production for exchange

Yes it is fucking vague as hell because saying THE PUBLIC WILL CONTROL PRODUCTION tells me nothing about how they will control production.

THE PUBLIC IS NOT ONE PERSON WITH UNIFIED WISHES so they need complicated systems to make decisions, none of which can use hierarchy. So yes it is vague.

Calling for specific features to be abolished still leaves the alternative very much vague.

GDP in the Soviet Union is likely to be a fucking joke because when there is no market 'values' don't really exist.


 No.66922

>>66909

>If there's no consensus on what the formula means, then it makes little sense to drop it.

And as a matter of fact, no Marxist does. If the people you've been discussing with did, there's 99% chances they weren't Marxists (no matter what the like to believe).

>You'd at least have to acknowledge the controversy, explain the possible options and possibly why your side is correct and not the other, but I rarely see that happen

Well then you rarely talk with Marxists.

>If you do that - like you just did - then you cannot be charged with your ideology being too vague.

Our theory isn't vague at all. Such a misconception comes from people either not actually reading it, or worse, not reading it and claiming to know it. Some people simply don't understand it, too.


 No.66923

>>66920

>none of which can use hierarchy.

Who told you that? What do you presume the "central" in "central planning''" means?


 No.66924

>>66915

>Anarcho-capitalism abolishes the present state of things

No you don't: you imagine another state of things.


 No.66925

>>66923

Communists don't propose central planning, so I don't know why you'd expect me to link them together. At most, central planning is a transitional state.


 No.66926

>>66925

>Communists don't propose central planning

Yes we do.


 No.66927

>>66926

Incorrect. How can you manage from the center will supporting worker self-management and democracy?


 No.66928

>>66903

>>We call communism the real movement which abolishes the present state of things. The conditions of this movement result from the premises now in existence.

So I guess Nazi Germany was true communism since it abolished the present state of things back then.


 No.66930

>>66927

>How can you manage from the center will supporting worker self-management and democracy?

And this is where I ask again: what do you presume the "central" in "central planning''" means? Hint: it has nothing to do with micro-managing everything from the center, and everything to do with hierarchy.

>democracy

The center and all intermediate levels can (and will) be democratically elected.

>worker self-management

This is not something we advocate for: as long as workers form a distinct class, it's not communism yet; when there is no class, it makes no sense to to talk about "workers self-management" anymore.


 No.66932

>>66928

>the present state of things

Don't be silly. Here "the present state of things" obviously means capitalism (as defined by Marx).


 No.66934

>>66922

Pretty much every communist on /liberty/ refuses to explain what exactly worker's ownership of the means of production means, and when pressed, they tell you to read a book or call you an idiot some other way.

>If the people you've been discussing with did, there's 99% chances they weren't Marxists (no matter what the like to believe).

That sounds like the No True Scotsman fallacy. Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't like to invoke that fallacy.

>Our theory isn't vague at all. Such a misconception comes from people either not actually reading it, or worse, not reading it and claiming to know it. Some people simply don't understand it, too.

From what I've read from Marx and Engels, the theory is vague, they come up with a lot of stuff out of nowhere, and don't acknowledge obvious criticisms. There was a section in the Communist Manifesto that pretty much said that if you're from the bourgeoisie, you just can't get it, with the implication - from Marx' and Engels' bourgeois origin - that an exception is made when you agree with the theory. All in all, this is not something you can make sense of. There are some socialist theories that are based on a few fallacies but are otherwise clear and consistent, I'll concede that, but Marxism is not one of them. Of all the stuff I've read, only some analytical philosophers were equally bad in this regard.


 No.66935

File: 76e4ff886222d01⋯.jpg (41.53 KB, 599x386, 599:386, B-TRh9jIYAEU0L6.jpg)

Neither of you attract any real talent from what I can see, certainly no Marxist geniuses these days. The modern Communist movement is comprises these very sad, very confused and often just plain awful people who for whatever reason need to feel like they are in the company of brilliance. IQ tautologically indexes your ability to excel at the set of mental tasks demanded in the modern workplace, so you'll see Libertarians for instance building companies or writing complex code yet believing "the universe is a simulation" is a meaningful statement. I find Libertarians will usually start end up arguing in circles when you come to the holes in their reasoning, in exactly in the same manner of the Marxists. This is very amusing, and to be sure the Austrians knew their Marx. I sense there may be some kind of a common thread here.


 No.66936

>>66935

Neither of you attract any real talent from what I can see, certainly no Marxist geniuses. The Communist movement is comprises these very sad, very confused and often just plain awful people who for whatever reason need to feel like they are in the company of brilliance.

Fixed that for you.

>IQ tautologically indexes your ability to excel at the set of mental tasks demanded in the modern workplace, so you'll see Libertarians for instance building companies or writing complex code yet believing "the universe is a simulation" is a meaningful statement.

What kind of libertarian believes the universe is a simulation??

>I find Libertarians will usually start end up arguing in circles when you come to the holes in their reasoning, in exactly in the same manner of the Marxists.

Well… I disagree. Care to provide some examples, maybe?

>I am a piece of paper and I control your entire life

That's why we support the gold standard. :^)


 No.66937

File: 75c13d2a1413984⋯.jpg (12.75 KB, 581x420, 83:60, 75c13d2a1413984798b3b061aa….jpg)

>>66934

>Pretty much every communist on /liberty/ refuses to explain what exactly worker's ownership of the means of production means

Not sure tho whom you have been talking to, but they are most likely from /leftypol/ which is filled with ultras who veil themselves in mystery whenever it comes to real world application. Worker ownership (which isn't everything that defines socialism but a big part of it), can be outlined in two layers:

1. The allocation of surplus value of labor based on the use value of the product collectively to benefit society. Concretely: Collectively planned economy with collectivized reciprocal participation of worker organizations, the way it was in the USSR through trade unions and council democracy.

2. On a base level, we must talk about workplace democracy as well. The firms should be run with the administrators responsible both to the staff as well as to the public. That doesn't mean "voting per ballot on every single issue" but several platforms of participation, influence and control both by the public as well as by the workers. An example of that would be the Taen Work System of the DPRK.

http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-9558.html

>That sounds like the No True Scotsman fallacy. Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't like to invoke that fallacy

Not the same guy, but that's ridiculous. If a guy spouts stuff Marx hasn't said he isn't a Marxist. So when I claim to be an Rothtardian AnCap but claim stuff Rothbart never said, it holds the same value? Be very careful with this argument my friend, because according to AnCaps it's never real capitalism everytime something goes wrong. Also, I highly doubt you've read much of Marx and Engels since you only mention the Communist Manifesto which is an agitprop piece for the 1850s, rather then a work of theory.


 No.66938

File: 1df0d7a28492294⋯.jpg (109.78 KB, 1280x720, 16:9, 8968c2c74420c1c39674a9f8fa….jpg)

>>66850

The horseshoe is quite literally nothing.

You focus on matters that are more important to you and look away form matters that are less important to you.

To a socialist, they are very far away form communists because they're not authoritarian abut anarchocapitalists and other non-anarchist capitalists are literally bundled together because neither of them care about wealth disparities made by capitalism.

To a anarchocapitalist, you should know the deal but I'll say it anyways, authoritarian right-wingers are very far away because you're not authoritarian while anarcho-communists and communists are very close together because they want to redistribute the wealth and autocracy or democracy it doesn't matter.

There are a few more examples but there is legitimately no reason to expand on it. Horseshoe theory is just playing along with your own and your enemies natural biases, because actual arguments are old and busted anyways.


 No.66939

>>66936

>What kind of libertarian believes the universe is a simulation??

Elon Musk.

>Well… I disagree. Care to provide some examples, maybe?

One of your main problems is NAP isn't truly axiomatic because it relies on a definite notion of what constitutes property, which outside of the most simple and obvious cases requires a community consensus, which is to be decided by tort, which is to be founded on the legal principle of… the NAP.

>muh gold

Implying nuclear power wouldn't instantly take off making the ability to transmute gold commonplace. I haven't actually done the numbers on that, but it'd certainly be a delicious twist.


 No.66940

>Vague

>They never explain it

>I don't get it

All you have to do to understand "communism" is literally to read their books. It's really that simple.


 No.66942

>>66940

Most right-wingers don't even bother making a difference between communism as a state of history (classless, stateless and moneyless society) and communism as a movement trying to achieve the latter.


 No.66943

>>66939

>implying we have to agree with everything some guy thinks, even when the belief in question has nothing to do with libertarianism

>implying the market wouldn't decide on some other basis for currency if gold became too commonplace


 No.66945

>>66943

>the market decides

So much ideology. "The market" isn't a conscious entity, it's an allocation system which can be observed. If the market "decides" to use told standard or any other standard isn't divine intervention, such a process can be deconstructed and rationalized.


 No.66946

>>66937

>trade unions and the soviets actually had any power in the USSR

Why are you all such liars? Anyone can look up what happened at the 10th Congress.

>trade unions should just be brainwashing fronts

t. Lenin

https://www.marxists.org/history/ussr/government/party-congress/10th/16d-abstract.htm

>>66943

I was just making an observation about different kinds of intelligence and their correlates to ideology. Energy is only the real currency.

>>66945

The market is a spontaneous order. It isn't random fluctuations over and above ethereal Forms that don't actually exist anywhere except in your own autistic mind. Marx was wrong about near to absolutely everything.


 No.66947

>>66945

>"The market" isn't a conscious entity

I never said it was. It's a group of individuals, all acting in their self interest. There will be short term confusion if gold becomes too common to serve as a good medium of exchange, but people will soon reach a consensus on what forms currency will take. There are already people putting forth alternatives to gold, such as cryptocurrency.


 No.66948

>>66934

>Pretty much every communist on /liberty/ refuses to explain what exactly worker's ownership of the means of production means

Because it doesn't mean a damn thing, and if these people were Marxists they would know it and say it out loud.

We want the complete abolition of private property. That means no ownership of "means of production" (what qualifies as such, by the way?), no ownership of products, no ownership at all. The only "ownership" that will remain is that of society as a whole on everything that exists.

As for the worker's, there won't be classes anymore, everyone will be a worker, so it makes no sense to oppose them and their "ownership" to anyone.

>That sounds like the No True Scotsman fallacy. Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't like to invoke that fallacy.

The fallacy consists in using the name of Marx to hide one's crypto-anarchism (or worse: see Stalin and the like). But now that you know the correct Marxist stance on the question, you can spot out this fallacy.


 No.66951

File: e15aa1ac24bdc07⋯.jpg (31.59 KB, 449x481, 449:481, e22b83522c8ee95b49a15c00a6….jpg)

>>66949

>read a book

The same old pro-communist arguments.


 No.66952

>>66937

>Not the same guy, but that's ridiculous. If a guy spouts stuff Marx hasn't said he isn't a Marxist.

Well, that's a good enough standard for me.

>>66939

>Elon Musk.

And he's a libertarian why, exactly? He even proposed a carbon tax, that's hardly libertarian. Also, this: >>66943

While Musk perhaps gets a bit too much shit for taking subsidies and jobs from the state, he's absolutely not representative of libertarianism.

>One of your main problems is NAP isn't truly axiomatic because it relies on a definite notion of what constitutes property, which outside of the most simple and obvious cases requires a community consensus, which is to be decided by tort, which is to be founded on the legal principle of… the NAP.

Not sure what circularity you see in there. Ancaps (rothbardian ones at least) see property as something that's rooted in natural law, not custom or consensus. So you cannot say that the NAP is rooted in a community consensus founded on the NAP as a legal principle. Properly, self-ownership is derived by eliminating all alternatives, or through the act of argumentation; property in other things follows from the principle of self-ownership and the homesteading-principle (and possibly from the fact of scarcity); and the NAP is derived either from an argument from human nature or through the act of argumentation itself, and applies to all kinds of property including self-ownership. This outline is enough to show that there is no circularity involved at any point of the argument.


 No.66953

File: f785857f88added⋯.jpg (16.31 KB, 263x200, 263:200, implying4.jpg)

>>66939

>Elon Musk

>unironically wants the state to monopolize AI tech through regulations

>is only rich because of lobby

>libertarian

Nope.


 No.66954

>>66946

>implying you can have full democracy in the middle of a revolution/civil war

The same old anti-communist arguments. Read a freaking history book for once. Since you don't make any specific claims just watch this

https://youtu.be/Okz2YMW1AwY

>The market is a spontaneous order

Literally religion. Why do you think equilibrium prices exist?

>>66951

Calm down autismo. Accidently clicked on "send".


 No.66955

>>66952

>Well, that's a good enough standard for me

So what if I say Marx supported Anarcho-Capitalism? That's such an infantile behavior.


 No.66956

>>66945

The question is not if that's theoretically possible, the question is if it could happen realistically. Theoretically, people could decide to keep using a currency that can be inflated at will, but that would be unrealistic. Even when the state decrees the use of such a currency, people eventually stop demanding it and the monetary system breaks down. Almost everything is possible if people have really weird value scales and want ten tons of gold more urgently than a bitcoin or a loaf of bread, but it's common sense that no one would ever think that.

>>66954

>Literally religion. Why do you think equilibrium prices exist?

Because of the decisions people make, namely their decision to buy and sell a specific product. So yes, it's a spontaneous order, because no one makes the decision that the market should be this way or another or that a market should even exist.

>>66955

Then I'll say that you should take a hand if someone gives it to you and not knock it away, you little child. I just conceded that the no true scotsman fallacy doesn't apply. For the sake of discussion, I didn't even qualify that in any way.


 No.66957

>>66930

>And this is where I ask again: what do you presume the "central" in "central planning''" means?

Micro-managing from the center.

>everything to do with hierarchy.

Which communism is opposed to.

>The center and all intermediate levels can (and will) be democratically elected.

So really the workers don't control their environment, they just get to vote for most likely one of two tyrannical plans?

If that is what you preach, it's stupid.

>This is not something we advocate for: as long as workers form a distinct class, it's not communism yet; when there is no class, it makes no sense to to talk about "workers self-management" anymore.

If everyone is worker, they're still workers. You absolutely advocate for workers controlling their workplace, which is supposed to give you license to complain about capitalist conditions


 No.66958

>>66851

Holy fuck people like this should be shot. "Don't stop me from pouring gasoline all over the house while I tell you how intellectually superior i am".


 No.66962

>all this butthurt about musk

jej

>>66949

>you haven't read enough propaganda!

>can't actually name a book which contradicts what direction Lenin took the country after the 10th Congress

I even provided a link you can read yourself.

>same old arguments! we've heard these before!

It's almost like a rational mind will tend to locate the problems with your cancerous thought process, only way you can try stop it is through waves of violent repression, closing down outside communications, spy networks, control of all media, mass "reeducation", and 70 full years of that didn't even work.

>>66952

In my understanding, Libertarian Non-aggression means something like not initiating force on person OR property. So the notion of property has to be logically prior to the NAP. Sure it's easy to see how this works when you've cobbled a shoe or made your own corn, or have a clearly demarcated fence around your land.

But in more difficult cases when deciding what ownership actually entails it becomes a problem. What about inheritance, for example? Even without the logical priority problem, determining this precisely is absolutely crucial to the whole foundation of your social order, as you can reply with lethal force for aggressions and with a 10x or some other arbitrary (not very natural) multiplier tacked on for deterrant purposes was it?

When dealing with an advanced technological society, it becomes an exponential stretch of the imagination to claim ownership as some kind of natural extension of human nature or natural law, due to the complexity and abstractness, and begs the question of where the line is crossed into "artificial" or "unnatural"? It's been a while since I thought about all of this but from reading Libertarian texts on complex or edge case property issues it revolved around an insane amount of decentralized legal proceedings and sounded just completely unworkable. Like Fourier ocean of lemonade pie in the sky fucking ridiculous.

My understanding of the argument argument was it was trying to say that anything other than the NAP or self-ownership is self-refuting, which still doesn't resolve the problem that property is built into it and it is the legal foundation of the contractual society.

How would you respond to this? https://www.libertarianism.org/blog/six-reasons-libertarians-should-reject-non-aggression-principle

>>66954

>expecting me to watch a Muke or whoever video

Nice double post. Got any actual books, brainlet?

>literally religion

It's just fundamental physics actually. On the other hand, Marxism is clearly just Messianism.


 No.66964

File: 892a2b5d27657b8⋯.gif (24.78 KB, 150x170, 15:17, 10 bux.gif)

And that's my next reminder that you cannot talk to commies, I guess. Just how many books do I need to read by Marx and Engels before I get it? For a New Liberty has less than 400 pages, I think, and it already makes a complete case for anarchocapitalism. The Machinery of Freedom has 288 or so in its newest edition and it does the same thing. Ludwig von Mises' Liberalism has about 200 and does the same for libertarianism. You're not an expert after reading one of these books, but you know what anarchocapitalism or libertarianism are about. With Marx, you need to read the entirety of the Capital, 800 pages per volume over three volumes, before a Marxist will acknowledge an overview. And the writing is shitty, let me tell you. The reason why I read it so slowly is because it's shit. Not just the style, his arguments are pedantic, he gets lost on peripheral issues, his footnotes are mostly snarky remarks about critics… I read the passage at least twice where he talks about socially necessary labor and average labor time and I neither know why he picked these two criteria nor how to apply them, because he doesn't tell us. I just read his critique of Condillac again; Marx denied that both parties benefit from a transaction because, even though it increases both of their utilities, the exchange value of the two articles exchanged is the same, and so the value stays the same. The implications of this argument are so absurd that I feel bad for enumerating them. Marx basically rejected an analysis of utility because it wasn't congruent with an analysis of exchange values. And you expect me to read three volumes of that?

Let me tell you how many leftists I have read or talked with that had a real understanding of Austrian economics: Zero. Another reason why I'm so slow with Capital is because I try to take different viewpoints in, of which Marxism is just one, but I have yet to see a Marxist make a serious attempt at that. You all commit the same beginner mistakes, you don't understand the most simple concepts of your critics, no matter how sophisticated you otherwise might be.

Talking with you is futile and I won't waste any more time trying to reach a common ground with you. Learn what the calculation-problem is about or fuck off, and take your memes of production with you.


 No.66968

>>66964

Yeah the whole "book" thing with them really is just a scam, it's just hoops to try make you jump through/barriers to entry, kind of like Scientology or whatever, but wasting your time instead of money. Most of them haven't read jack shit, and it's easy to trip them up to prove it. They're just compulsive liars in general, it's absolutely built into their psyche.

Marx is indeed a terrible writer and Capital could have easily been 5x shorter, Commies are mainly just drawn to his rhetoric I think. Main Currents of Marxism by Kolakowski is a much better overview, and covers the basics of dialectical philosophy and all the major sects up until the 1970's while basically shredding them, and he was pretty much still a Marxist himself so it's as sympathetic as possible too.


 No.66969

File: a00be29ce453d06⋯.gif (1.43 MB, 320x240, 4:3, thumbsupcomputerkid.gif)

>>66962

You may be an exception, if you're a leftist. Didn't check your prior comments for that, sorry.

>In my understanding, Libertarian Non-aggression means something like not initiating force on person OR property. So the notion of property has to be logically prior to the NAP.

The NAP is an accessory to property rights, but it can be derived independently from them. You can have two vastly different conceptions of property but still the same conception of the NAP, you just apply it to different objects. To an anarchosocialist who thinks the NAP doesn't apply to private property, we explain property rights, not the NAP.

>But in more difficult cases when deciding what ownership actually entails it becomes a problem. What about inheritance, for example?

That problem isn't settled by the NAP, but by an analysis of what property entails. It entails, for example, the right of the property owner to transfer his property as he sees fit, which in turn entails that he can transfer it conditionally. There's no reason why he shouldn't be able to transfer it under the condition of his death.

>How would you respond to this? https://www.libertarianism.org/blog/six-reasons-libertarians-should-reject-non-aggression-principle

>Prohibits All Pollution

I think something is missing in Rothbards case on this. The criterion which I would apply is whether the immission in question is something that the property already comes into contact with. Shining a flashlight on your house wouldn't be illegitimate, then, as your house already regularly comes into contact with sunlight of comparable intensity. You can't homestead a house that no soundwave ever enters if you don't build a house that doesn't permit any soundwaves to enter it.

>Prohibits Small Harms for Large Benefits

I see the fact that the rothbardian system doesn't permit harm motivated by a utilitarian calculation as a feature, not a glitch. I also think that in scenarios where scratching someones finger lightly would save the planet from being hit by an steroid, the utilitarian calculation is not really what creates our moral revulsion if the guy refuses to have his finger scratched. We'd hardly be less revulsed if the lifes on ten people where at stake, while we would be in a serious moral dilemma if killing him saved a thousand people.

So I think this question carries the wrong implications. Better to figure out what exactly triggers our moral intuitions and try to incorporate it into the theory somehow. I'm still trying to do just that, and I'm willing to modify Rothbard for it. What I won't do is throw the baby out with the bathwater. And I definitely won't make concessions to the hypothetical scenario where a tax of 1% on all billionaires solves global hunger, that's an unrealistic scenario and it reeks of leftist sentiment.

>All-or-Nothing Attitude Toward Risk

Is the risk elevated significantly beyond the normal risk of living your life? Then it's impermissible. For example, you cannot prohibit an airplane passing over your head at an altitude of ten thousand feet because the risk of you being killed or harmed by it is not even a fraction of a percent. Your choice of breakfast has a stronger influence on your chance of surviving the day.

>No Prohibition of Fraud

Rothbard did address that problem. The solution is actually very straightforward from his conception of contracts: If I sell you my car for a hundred dollars, and you take my cars and refuse to pay me, then I still own my car. So fraud is just another form of theft.

>Parasitic on a Theory of Property

Like I said, that's not true. Or rather, it is true in a sense, but only in the same way as any right of self defense is parasitic on a theory of rights or property. Still, no one levels this criticism against the right of self defense per se or against any other right that doesn't include its object in the definition.

>What About the Children???

I think Rothbard was wrong on this, too. Permitting your children to starve is aggression, due to a principle we call "Ingerenz" in german jurisprudence. Haven't found a good translation yet. The principle says that if you expose someone to a risk, you have to make sure the risk doesn't realize itself. I think this applies to childbearing, too. If you create a child, you simultaneously expose it to a multitude of risks that you must then control to the best of your ability. If you fail to do that and let your child starve, then that's akin to homicide.

>>66968

Okay, right now, you sound like a really cool dude. Thanks for the recs!


 No.66970

>>66956

Well how do you think a gold-backed can be enforced without a state-like entity? Modern business world, especially financial sectors, are way too erratic and dynamic to cling to such rusty standards.

>Because of the decisions people make, namely their decision to buy and sell a specific product

Doesnt explain equilibrium prices. The theory of equilibrium prices tries to explain the price differences when supply and demand cancel each other, it tries to unveil the inherent value of a good and the mechanizations behind it - they aren't observed, but they operate. Case in point: You have a village with an apple farm and a iron mine, and the apple farm sells 10 apples and the iron mine 10 iron ingots. Now let's assume the village inhabitants only need exactly 10 apples and 10 iron ingots - supply and demand in this hypothetical scenario is canceled out. Yet, the iron ingot is more expensive than the apple. Why is that? You can now escape into quasi-religious spheres and saying that is just the way it is, or trying to rationalize it with empirical method.

>I just conceded that the no true scotsman fallacy doesn't apply

My bad then. I was phoneposting while riding a train.

>>66962

>hurrdurr every leftist YouTuber is Muke

>got any actual books, brainlet?

It has plenty of books in the video description. You didn't make a more specific claim. In any case, read this, if you want to know more:

http://books.covoc.ru/Working+versus+talking+democracy+Mike+Davidow.+Mike+Davidow.


 No.66971

>>66968

>doesn't make a single argument

>doesn't provide evidence for any of his claims

>rampant ad hominems

You are by far the most buttflustered person I've seen in a long time. Did you get banned on /leftypol/ or something?


 No.66973

File: 7104536561ab20f⋯.jpg (29.33 KB, 626x741, 626:741, thimpling.jpg)

>>66971

>specifically ignores the post that goes into great detail about why marx is shit


 No.66975

File: 1d95bbcf0a02327⋯.png (8.67 KB, 500x250, 2:1, Oekaki.png)

autism is linked with both high IQ and rightism, cummies btfo

sage goes in all fields


 No.66980

>>66909

>If there's no consensus on what the formula means, then it makes little sense to drop it. You'd at least have to acknowledge the controversy, explain the possible options and possibly why your side is correct and not the other, but I rarely see that happen.

I kind of agree, it's near impossible to talk about politics using regular terminology since the meaning of all related terms have been so utterly corrupted. It's like the term libertarianism, for most of history(and for most parts of the world) it has mean libertarian socialism, aka anarchism. Only in America and thanks to the internet has it come to mean the sort of "free market"(another word that can mean absolutely anything) advocacy found here. Chomsky explains:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxPUvQZ3rcQ

>If you do that - like you just did - then you cannot be charged with your ideology being too vague.

Yeah, it's just tiring to have to explain the same thing in every new conversation about politics.

>The socialists who interpret it as workers having their own factory are the ones that we could find common grounds with. If they're correct, if bosses are unnecessary and workers can manage their own affairs just as well without them, and if that really increases productivity, then at the very least they'll find a niché for themselves, and they may possibly become predominant. If anarchocapitalism lost out that way, then none of us would have grounds to complain. Sadly, the debate rarely works out that way, but it could.

I think libertarian socialists would argue that socialist workplaces would indeed become the dominant mode of production if allowed to flourish. However as we currently have it there's capital backed up by big states and their tools of coercion making sure such a thing never happens. Even so, I don't think capitalism has a capability to be a moral force. If we imagine an anarcho-capitalist society, where socialist workplaces would suddenly start spreading, capital owners would do all in their power to put these competitors down, using violence if necessary and disregarding any non-aggression principle.

>Statist socialism is a whole different thing. As I see it, it categorically cannot work, and that's one of the reasons why you cannot plausibly explain why one alternative is better than any other. When a statist socialist explains to me that the USSR-model wasn't real socialism, but the Cockshott-model would be, it frankly sounds like a bad excuse. I also never heard a reason why any one model would be better, besides the supercomputers. Only that one is socialism, and the other somehow isn't. So I'd say a major part of the problem is bad rhetorics, but not the only one.

Agree


 No.66983

>>66970

>Doesnt explain equilibrium prices. The theory of equilibrium prices tries to explain the price differences when supply and demand cancel each other, it tries to unveil the inherent value of a good and the mechanizations behind it - they aren't observed, but they operate. Case in point: You have a village with an apple farm and a iron mine, and the apple farm sells 10 apples and the iron mine 10 iron ingots. Now let's assume the village inhabitants only need exactly 10 apples and 10 iron ingots - supply and demand in this hypothetical scenario is canceled out. Yet, the iron ingot is more expensive than the apple. Why is that? You can now escape into quasi-religious spheres and saying that is just the way it is, or trying to rationalize it with empirical method.

If there is no supply, and no demand, then what the fuck are you even talking about? How can there be any prices at all if nothing is being bought or sold?


 No.66984

>>66980

The term 'libertarian' is right wing all over the English speaking world. 'Free market' is clearly a spectrum, but everyone agrees that the freest market would have zero regulations


 No.67002

>>66983

I think he >>66970 meant that A buys 10 apples from B, and B buys 10 iron ingots from A. Apparently, the mystery is that even though A needs exactly 10 apples and B exactly ingots, the two articles have a different price. This is easily solved when we remember A's and B's utility rankings. If A sells his ingots for 2 $ a piece and B his apples for 1$ a piece, that's simply because of how they value each others goods, and how much they value money in comparison. Which makes it really damn odd to talk of supply and demand cancelling each other out. If A really only needed apples and B ingots, then they would just resort to barter. That they don't do so shows that they also have different needs.

This explanation isn't good enough for mainstream economists, though, and that's why they treat it as an equation to be solved, thereby assuming a certain regularity in pricing for no reason whatsoever. If these fools took praxeology as serious as they should, they wouldn't do this kind of play. What determines prices is the evaluation of the marginal buyers and sellers of the good on their value scales, and it's entirely possible that the price changes minimally if half of all buyers stop buying the good, but that it then drops rapidly after the next few buyers stop. We can say in which directions the supply- and demand-curves are sloping, but beyond that not what they look like, whether they are a diagonal lines or whether they drop or rise rapidly.

>>66984

This.


 No.67007

>>66859

>I would not say Right-Libertarians have the highest IQ. But they are much higher than Nationalists and Fascists for sure.

I don't even know what the fuck 'left' or 'right' libertarianism is. There's just libertarianism. There was a study about six or seven years back that demonstrated that people who described themselves as libertarian had the highest average IQ of the mainstream political persuasions.


 No.67015

>>66937

>because according to AnCaps it's never real capitalism everytime something goes wrong

Because it is appears to be always something elusive to capitalism that goes wrong.

>>66938

> because neither of them care about wealth disparities made by capitalism.

Which are these disparities? The ones I am aware of are due to the state.


 No.67016

>>66945

>So much ideology.

It is the absence of ideology. It doesn't state which standard to follow but leaves it up to the individual to decide which to use.


 No.67017

>>67015

I'm not a actual socialist, I'm arguing form the standpoint of a socialist for the sake of one post.

By the way, you wouldn't be able to pass English classes without the state's help. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.


 No.67018

>>66980

>t's like the term libertarianism, for most of history(and for most parts of the world) it has mean libertarian socialism, aka anarchism.

Libertarian socialists used the term "Libertaire". Libertarian had no political definition until 1878 when it became a general term for those advocating voluntary association.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=libertarian


 No.67019

>>67017

>By the way, you wouldn't be able to pass English classes without the state's help.

How so?


 No.67021

>>66971

Half the banlist on /leftypol/ is probably me. My vendetta against Marxism is because I used to be one so I know its insidious character. And it's funny because all you have is your book-derived sense of self importance and intellect, and I'm quite frankly much smarter than all of you.

>>66970

It's quite simple, you claimed the worker's councils and unions had real power in the USSR, but this flatly contradicts the known historical record. I provided a primary source, from no less an authority on these matters than Lenin. What specific evidence in your """CPUSA""" (KGB) pamphlet actually contradicts this, can you provide specific quotes?


 No.67022

File: 87d5dc82890d37a⋯.gif (263.88 KB, 148x111, 4:3, 1424638410821.gif)

>>67019

If the state had not intentionally dumbed down education, you'd be held back for not being able to read properly.


 No.67024

File: 8cd206ff04c99ec⋯.png (105.59 KB, 1787x246, 1787:246, d3808fadf5ddbac3db573fbedf….png)

>>66964

This post deserves a screencap.


 No.67025

>>67021

Is that book by Kołakowski sufficient for debunking most of Marxist thought? Should I bother reading all the schools mentioned in the book, or should I go straight into reading it?


 No.67026

File: e083d39a66e5833⋯.jpg (26.9 KB, 480x360, 4:3, family.jpg)

>>67021

Are you Juche? Not wanting to flame you, I'm genuinely curious because of the "smarter than all of you".comment. The world woudln't understand, but I do.


 No.67028

>>67015

>always something elusive to capitalism that goes wrong

This is good up example of straight up Marxian reasoning I was talking about earlier. Here you have crafted an ideal, abstract model, often claimed in a Kantian style to be based on pure a priori first principles without recourse to any particular human experience (except the Form of Action or something like it). The core cosmology of all orthodox modern economics (rational utility optimization) is also tautologically constructed, though they don't even bother to give it a philosophical foundation a la the Austrians. Similarly to Marxists who attempt to derive the most general possible picture of the Social Totality from simple idealized Forms such as Labor, Value and Commodity, and with a different way of dealing with pesky issue of subjectivity.

The problem with this is: when reality disconfirms the model (which is asymptotically always going to be the case no matter how advanced the model due to irreducible human contingency and reality's infinite complexity), you inevitably argue that it is not that the model is inaccurate but this is the fault of reality itself (proxied by bad human actors), for introducing DISTORTIONS that deform reality against your rigid blueprint of its inner machinery. As though it could be an error in reality if it does not fit the inevitably simplistic algorithms you have for both describing it not just as it is, but also moving well beyond possible experience and extrapolated out to be a Platonically remote and pristine, hypothetical "pure reality" that would comport with the model 1:1, which in fact exists only as an artifact of your own minds.

But in a real science, such constant disconfirmation would be properly treated as a deficiency in the model, and you'd attempt to update or discard the model, rather than deciding to abolish reality instead!


 No.67045

>>66957

>Micro-managing from the center.

Certainly not.

For example, I'm pretty sure we can agree on the fact that an army is centrally planned (if these are to have a meaning). Although the general doesn't pull every single trigger himself; there's subsidiarity. The army is centrally planned insofar as the decisions of the general, when he feels necessary to take one, override those of his subordinates.

>Which communism is opposed to.

No we don't. You strawmaning all day long won't change a thing.

>So really the workers don't control their environment, they just get to vote for most likely one of two tyrannical plans?

No: subsidiarity, remember?

Also, there is no "tyrannical plan" written down somewhere. Planning occurs every instant and at every level, from the individual artisan to the global level. It is central only insofar as the latter has authority over the latter.

>If everyone is worker, they're still workers.

Yes but then it makes bo sense to talk about their "self-management", for it is completely obvious. "Workers self-management" as opposed to whose management? Unicorns?

Add to this the fact that such a watchword leaves opened the possibility of mere cooperatives operating in a market, and you'll see how utterly anti-communist it is.

>You absolutely advocate for workers controlling their workplace

No we don't. Workers already control their workplace about just as much as they will in communism.

>which is supposed to give you license to complain about capitalist conditions

We need no license to complain. Workers complain (more or less depending on the period). That's a fact we explain and from which we draw conclusions for the future of this society.


 No.67060

>>67045

>Also, there is no "tyrannical plan" written down somewhere.

So you're just denying GOSPLAN existed now? Oh wait no I get it, you're going to do it in a supercomputing cluster, how forward thinking. All that needs to be decided here are the correct, historically materialist, progressive algorithms. Direct rule by Google/NSA. What could possibly go wrong?

Your decentralized devolved planning architecture is a pipe dream. Do you know how complex dynamical systems work? The top level model making tiny alterations to the boundary conditions can and will ripple through the whole system in an irreducibly unpredictable way. The need for stability is just one of the logics that will ensure the demand for ever finer grain of resolution at the center. Another comes from below, gaming the system at any level, this is inevitable when all power means ability to force alterations in the plan even just slightly outside the level you're supposed to oversee.

The fact you admit this arrangement will have nested subsidiarity regimented like the damn military is hilarious. So you do know then the visionary "real communism" will never be achieved, you don't really intend to achieve it, and it's a carrot for the useful idiots and nothing more?


 No.67062

>>67060

>The fact you admit this arrangement will have nested subsidiarity regimented like the damn military is hilarious.

What's hilarious about it?


 No.67068

>>67045

Whatever you're on about, this is obviously not communist at all, because communists are opposed to hierarchy and want people to control their working environment (voting for someone else to control it is not the same)

>Also, there is no "tyrannical plan" written down somewhere. Planning occurs every instant and at every level, from the individual artisan to the global level. It is central only insofar as the latter has authority over the latter.

I clearly meant 'electing a leader with one of two plans'


 No.67069

It's in the definition of 'left wing' that one is opposed to hierarchy.


 No.67070

I don't know anyone who identifies as a "rightist" so you can drop that straight away. Every conservative I know either owns a house or is on the path to owning a house, whereas most lefties are either on welfare or permanent university students, which is also welfare. Personality traits have nothing to do with intelligence.


 No.67072

What about 'the capitalist state mainly exists to enforce hierarchical economic relations, to enforce the exclusive control of property, and to regulate capitalistic economic activities—all of which would be non-applicable to a communist system'

If workers are really going to be involved in a hierarchy and only through a very limited way going to control property (they already control property in a limited way) then communism would sound less utopian to them and I doubt they would be as interested


 No.67099

>>67069

>implying


 No.67114

>>66968

>>66964

>"Don't read a book"


 No.67120

>>67114

Can I recommend you https://www.amazon.com/Crash-Override-Gamergate-Destroyed-Against/dp/1610398084 ? I assure you that this book is of importance to national and even global history, the principles which are laid thenceforth by it are philosophical and worth your time reading.

You're not going to chicken out of this and NOT read this book, right?


 No.67121

File: 22a8547acef025f⋯.jpg (110.53 KB, 1080x735, 72:49, george-soros-quote.jpg)

I can't imagine who fund that research.

<post George Soros' best quotes


 No.67123

Why does every thread devolve in to commie vs ancap shitposting?

We were talking about how rightists supposedly had lower IQ, when in fact that only applied to social conservatives and classical liberals and Libertarians actually have the highest IQ.

http://reason.com/archives/2014/06/13/are-conservatives-dumber-than-liberals

He found that students who held more traditional views on gender and sex roles averaged lower on their verbal SAT and Achievement Test scores. "Surprisingly," he continued, this was not true of students with anti-regulation attitudes. With them, "all else being equal, more conservative respondents scored higher than more liberal respondents."


 No.67124

File: e7e32e9bd4d9b57⋯.png (277.87 KB, 1366x768, 683:384, go home.png)

>>67121

>BILD

>A german tabloid often refered to as the "National Inquirer of germany."

>No evidence of such an interview

>duckduckgo search of the quote brings up snopes.com as its first link.

Pic related


 No.67140

File: b481ea815a14744⋯.png (114.96 KB, 598x889, 598:889, 1471223092720.png)

>>67114

Oh by all means I wish people would read more, and I myself am fascinated with leftist intellectual history, and even find some of the arguments compelling enough to repurpose for my own ends. And don't get me wrong, I know capitalism is an appalling system, I just hate you people and don't mind handing over to the fucking AnCaps here all my best ammo seeing as how absolutely assblasted their mere existence makes you. Another reason to read your bullshit is most of you are just too lazy or stupid to really commit to it yourselves, and it is always good to aim to know your enemy better than they know themselves, another edge we will have over you this time as you appear congenitally incapable of truly understanding what motivates others.

However, the way YOU behave about books is just another classic manifestation of the Leftist psychology. Whereas I want more people to read and broadly, which includes all the classic literature of the left, my motivation in this, as far as I can discern in myself, is so that we may collectively have a better chance of figuring out what to do through an enlightened dialectic, and overall just fighting back against the great intellectual stupefaction of our time. I don't even rule out that I could be totally wrong about Leftism and may have been lead astray by my limited perspective, this is just the human condition. On the other hand you already believe yourself to be in possession of the complete answer, despite this being spectacularly a priori unlikely given all your numerous personal failings, and also all other evidence to the contrary.

Marxist ethics, if even claimed at all (often not, except as cunningly implied by your agit-prop about various struggles and plights, and infinite righteous damnation against all those perceived as crossing you), are a facade. You operate under no true principles except furthering Marxism by any and all means at your disposal under the logic of war. This is why you're so dangerous and insidious when left to fester in institutions.

Another aspect is of why you do this is: Part of the appeal of Marxism is in its steep learning curve, requiring some minimum of raw intellect and time, compounded by its verbosity and subtle incoherences which causes a normal mind difficulties (which you misinterpret as true depth or complexity). This makes the readership a reasonably exclusive club of enthusiastic converts who then naturally get to imagine themselves as the elevated vanguard, despite the fact they're often bourgeois or whatever themselves. The great thing about this is, the majority of you haven't even really bothered to read Capital and are simply lying about it, but despite this you have already gone and presupposed that it's correct! Your effective "reasoning" in this case is quite amusing to run through, in any case most of you simply learn the stock apologia and catchphrases to repeat over and over again.

You have all these tomes which you have personally selected and decided are "important". Lacking a current International however you have no central dogmatic authority to call upon but your own self-estimation, and your only fallback is the significantly less impressive humanities departments of the elite bourgeois liberal European University, exactly an institution supposed to be diametrically opposed to your entire being if your theory were actually coherent, while inadvertently proving the basic thesis of Cultural Marxism. Or you'll try and hang on you achieving any degree and thus being "educated". Or anything really, your deflections and denials never end, anything at all rather than being forced to make an ethical case or reasonable argument yourselves.

Now, I know YOU'RE not capable of understanding any of this, but the world doesn't actually revolve around you, and it really is fascinating to dissect you specimens like this.


 No.67167

>>67140

screencapped tbh


 No.67228

>>67022

What makes you think I cannot read properly? Did I take your quote out of context?


 No.67230

>>67028

>>67028

I do not recall stating capitalism as an ideal model. From my observations, I find that people blame capitalism for certain issues that have other causes. Removing capitalism would not solve these issues.


 No.67231

>>67228

That would be correct


 No.67580

>>66964

>>67140

You've perfectly summed up all my frustrations and grievances with Marxists in a way that I couldn't do with such eloquence. I feel physically relieved after reading these posts, thank you man.


 No.67587

File: 0f3eaa87ca9965f⋯.png (142.85 KB, 1296x570, 216:95, screenshot-8ch.net-2017-09….png)


 No.67614

>>67140

Excellent post, though I heavily disagree with you about the Capitalism aspect. Do you think you'd have the time to explain what it is about Capitalism that you dislike? Why is it so appalling?


 No.68091

>>66968

i thought that kolakowski was critical of marxism xd




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