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/liberty/ - Liberty

Non-authoritarian Discussion of Politics, Society, News, and the Human Condition (Fun Allowed)
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WARNING! Free Speech Zone - all local trashcans will be targeted for destruction by Antifa.

File: 326b6565e6637aa⋯.gif (1.4 MB, 320x240, 4:3, ````````.gif)

 No.63933

"Intellectual property" breaks markets and ruins capitalism.

Free market resource production is supposed to tend toward a commodity equilibrium where everyone is putting rutabagas onto the market and competing on price results in efficient rutabaga pricing. Instead, you have twelve million different retards trying to sell Maxturbago Brand POWER RUTABAGA cups with Vitamin C compatible with the Maxturbago Juice Fuzion Juice System and it just results in mass retardation and confusion.

 No.63937

I don't think people here would disagree with you on that.


 No.63942

>>63933

There are some ancaps who support intellectual property, I think, but they were a minority to begin with and are an even greater one now. On this board, I don't think I've ever met one.


 No.63956

>>63933

A good chunk of people here already agree on that.


 No.63980

>>63942

I think there's room for limited copyrights and EULAs, but not patents, in a libertarian society. I don't find Kinsella's primary argument against intellectual property all that convincing; he commits all kinds of is/ought fallacies.


 No.64064

>>63980

wouldnt mind if you elaborated on all of that


 No.64065

File: 348613bc3a8ce52⋯.jpg (131.58 KB, 960x960, 1:1, 1434782051229.jpg)

>>63942

I believe in intellectual property, but it would be a system enforced like private cartel much in the way IPC or ESRB is. A sort of "you don't have to respect our limited copyright claims/user agreements, but if you don't, then don't expect us to do business with you or certify that your products are safe for the general public."

>>63933

>People make goods with fancy names and charge more for them

>Maybe add a little vitamin C to it or something

>Only hippies, gymrats, and idiots buy the overpriced shit

Nothing of value is lost. This is like people buying "organic" animal products without realizing that there's virtually no difference between "organic" eggs and caged eggs.


 No.64345

>>63980

>>64065

Copyright came into being when a consortium of book publishers lobbied the British Crown to supposedly give authors monopolies on their works, but since the authors didn't have the means to copy nor distribute their works, they inevitably had to sign away those rights to the publishers, giving them monopolies instead. Copyright is the result of big business lobbying the state; It is a protectionist state grant monopoly whose only purpose is to secure the profits of monopolies and oligopolies while fucking over everyone else.

>I think there's room for limited copyrights and EULAs, but not patents

Copyright and patents serve the same purpose in different industries, to be against one while supporting the other is both inconsistent and unprincipled. The logical conclusion of intellectual property would be to have IP for recipes, architecture, fashion, furniture design, and every other creative field. However, those creative industries seem to flourish without protectionism, so the same would hold true for entertainment.


 No.64362

>>64345

There are intellectual property protections to some degree for all the creative industries you have listed as flourishing. The existence of intellectual property does not impede on an industry because creatives will each find their work a profitable niche across the spectrum of enforcement, from public domain projects to heavy handed monopolized ideas. Creatives who create as a form of expression will also always exist regardless of the number of profit minded creatives. Conversely, disrespect of IP is detrimental to individual rights, because it removes an individuals ability to determine what or how their creations are used for.


 No.64363

HAVE I TWELVE MILLION DIFFERENT RETARDS TRYING TO SELL MAXTURBAGO BRAND POWER RUTABAGA CUPS WITH VITAMIN C COMPATIBLE WITH THE MAXTURBAGO JUICE FUZION JUICE SYSTEM AND IT JUST RESULTS IN MASS RETARDATION AND CONFUSION ? ARE YOU SURE? ARE YOU REALLY SURE? MAYBE YOU'RE JUST DUMB.


 No.64364

>>64362

> Conversely, disrespect of IP is detrimental to individual rights, because it removes an individuals ability to determine what or how their creations are used for.

Thoughts are not "creations". You have rights only over your mind and exhaustible physical matter you have somehow manipulated. You don't gain ownership over people who have accessed your information.


 No.64365

>>64364

What is protected by copyrights isn't simply "thoughts" then. These are processes and works that are the result of exhausting physical matter, labour, capital and time. To simply determine against the will of the creator that they have no more right or control over their efforts than the common man who has put nothing into it, is on par with wealth redistribution in taking away autonomy over what is owned.


 No.64368

>>64365

They have control over their own efforts and their own efforts only. Free floating abstract ideas can not be owned. Their value is lower than air. There is no theory of property rights that covers inexhaustible abstractions. You are essentially attempting to claim ownership for positive externalities.

Again, they have rights only over their efforts specifically and nobody else's. You want a positive right to possible desirable outcome.


 No.64370

>>64364

These thought processes are exactly what drives the market to create DRM and black box spyware like windows 10.


 No.64371

>>64368

>>64364

Additionally, you're line of logic is pretty much claiming private regulatory institutions like IPC, the NEC, etc. Are de facto states.


 No.64375

>>64370

They can and they receive their backlash for it. Their reputation hasn't stopped eroding and is in no sight of recovering. Alternatives already exist and DRM is actively avoided.

>>64371

And that would be somewhat correct.


 No.64377

>>64368

IP infringement more commonly occurs in regards to using other's efforts to one's gain however. In this scenario, creations as protected by IP are neither inexhaustible nor are they externalities. The resources placed into them for the motive of earning a direct return ensure of that.


 No.64378

>>64377

THIS SCENARIO CREATIONS AS PROTECTED BY IP AM NEITHER INEXHAUSTIBLE NOR ARE THEY EXTERNALITIES THE RESOURCES PLACED INTO THEM FOR THE MOTIVE OF EARNING A DIRECT RETURN ENSURE OF THAT ? WHAT THE FUCK WOULD YOU KNOW? NOTHING, BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT ME, AND ARE THEREFORE WORTHLESS.


 No.64379

Well your conclusion is right, but your reason is wrong. Brand differentiation is a vital part of competition that enables consumers to get better value. It's harder to make an informed decision when all the rutabagas are just Rutabaga Brand Rutabagas, Now With No Distinguishing Features Whatsoever(TM).

But you are right that using the force of the state to prevent other people from acting on an idea results in less efficient market outcomes. It does so by restricting competition and innovation.


 No.64381

>>64379

WAY TO STATE THE OBVIOUS.


 No.64382

>>64378

If you're too retarded to see the direct relation between those two sentences, then maybe you should kill yourself


 No.64383

>>64382

IF I DON'T WANT TO KILL MYSELF , I'M NOT FUCKING GONNA.


 No.64384

>>64377

>The resources placed into them for the motive of earning a direct return ensure of that.

Resources placed to develop an idea and resources placed for the creation of a physical object are not the same. You could waste every bit of capital you have left to keep the air on Earth 100% pure and nobody would be legally obliged to pay you for breathing it.


 No.64385

>>64384

> Resources placed to develop an idea and resources placed for the creation of a physical object are not the same. You could waste every bit of capital you have left to keep the air on Earth 100% pure and nobody would be legally obliged to pay you for breathing it.

ARE YOU SURE? ARE YOU REALLY SURE? MAYBE YOU'RE JUST DUMB.


 No.64389

>>64384

What point are you making? They are not inexhaustible because the creator had to sacrifice resources to realise the IP. They are not positive externalities because the resources put into them are intended for direct return of value. It seems like you're simply arbitrating what makes something a right based on your own preferences.


 No.64399

>>64389

> They are not positive externalities because the resources put into them are intended for direct return of value.

What the creator wants and intends doesn't change what the product is. The exhaustion of labor has no value on its own, nor does it justify ownership of thoughts.


 No.64417

>>64399

And what the product is doesn't matter if it has unique value and possessive character. Funny how you'd only focus on the labour aspect when there is significant capital, resources, liability and scarcity involved as well. The final product protected by IP is so much more than thoughts, and you cannot trivialise or arbitrate that away on a whim.


 No.64418

>>64417

>Funny how you'd only focus on the labour aspect when there is significant capital, resources, liability and scarcity involved as well

I don't have to mention them. They don't add anything to the argument and are no different than the labor expended. Expenditures mean nothing when the end result leads to an abstraction. You can't award yourself property over other people's bodies because you put resources into something that has no means to be possessed, nor measured. It can't even be "stolen" in any meaningful way when all it takes for it to be used is someone to become aware of it. Property rights are supposed to exist to protect, not invade.


 No.64419

>>64418

Except the end result is not just an abstraction, that's just the way you're rationalising it. IP has scarcity, IP has possessive qualities in which it can be restricted from others, IP can be defined, IP can be stolen by way of destruction of opportunity costs, every quality you give to IP to call it an abstraction is completely arbitrated by yourself. To claim that you cannot leverage property over other people's bodies is a selective bias, for this is the case when physical property rights are infringed. For trespassers, thieves or fraudsters, their violations of property rights entail the curtailment of their bodily freedom in the form of reparations, punishment or physical removal. Property rights maximise individual rights by ensuring what is fairly earned is fairly kept, and IP is fairly earned.


 No.64422

Communism doesn't work.


 No.64426

>>64419

how is an idea property, how can it be owned?

if I make a cartoon, and you see it, you now have a copy of my idea floating around in your head, there is no way for you to experience it without gaining a copy


 No.64428

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>64419

> IP has scarcity, IP has possessive qualities in which it can be restricted from others, IP can be defined, IP can be stolen by way of destruction of opportunity costs, every quality you give to IP to call it an abstraction is completely arbitrated by yourself.

IP, or should I say intellectual monopoly, is, and has always been, state-grant protectionism. It's not a resource. It's not scarce. It can't be stolen. It's just the state threatening violence against individuals for creating certain works and inventions with their own property. In other words, it's the state committing theft to stop individuals from committing theft, which isn't even theft at all, it's just individuals competing with the first creators of works and inventions. In that respect, intellectual monopoly functions more like a cartel for the likes of Disney. Apple and Microsoft than a competitive market.

Speaking of which, you also ignored the corporatist origins of copyright. If copyright was supposed to protect artists and authors, how were artists and authors able to create works in the thousands of years without copyright? And more importantly, why was it the publishers, and not the artists who lobbied for copyright? Do you think they did it out of the kindness of their hearts? Or was it to secure their own profits? Which is more likely?


 No.64429

>>64426

Can you create that cartoon identically? Can you fathom the future sequence of events and storyline that follows in that cartoon's narrative as well as the creator? Could that cartoon have arisen in your head in the same form that it did in the creators? Had the creator not sacrificed resources into disseminating his cartoon, would it have the same value? Could value built from the cartoon(spin offs, fanfics etc) ever had had it's worth if not for deriving from the value the original cartoon created?

The ownership of IP comes from the fact that it's creation relied on the expended resources and efforts of it's creator, and as the creator is solely responsible for it's creation and upkeep, that it gains possessive quality.


 No.64430

>>64428

Who cares about history or origins? You can paint a dark past for any number of modern rights we have. Appeals to antiquity are flawed arguments. A statist could say the same by referencing how big gov has always been successful.

You're still trying to rationalise IP as an abstract concept without any supporting reasoning, when the character's of IP that allow it to be possessive are inherently there.


 No.64433

>>64430

>Who cares about history or origins? You can paint a dark past for any number of modern rights we have. Appeals to antiquity are flawed arguments. A statist could say the same by referencing how big gov has always been successful.

Putting aside the fact that we've always had rights, that they are and have always been intrinsic to our being, that government doesn't give rights, it violates them, and big government has never been successful, history and origins let's us understand how something came into being. And looking back at history, copyright was never lobbied with the artists' best interest in mind.

>You're still trying to rationalise IP as an abstract concept without any supporting reasoning, when the character's of IP that allow it to be possessive are inherently there.

There is property, but there's no such thing as intellectual property. It is metaphysically impossible to own ideas, as ideas are non-rivalrous; if I and someone else both want to bake chocolate cakes with the same recipe, we can do so. However, what we can't do is bake with the same resources as those resources are rivalrous. That's what makes intellectual property not property; it claims ownership over infinite entities. Ideas.

With that said, I propose this question to you, how can you naturally (without government) own something that is infinite in amount that can be used without decreasing the supply?


 No.64437

>>64433

Governmental success is subjective after all, successful imperialism could be seen as so for example, but that's beside the point.

> It is metaphysically impossible to own ideas, as ideas are non-rivalrous;

Rivalry is not an inherent quality needed for ownership, and ideas are rivalrous in their conception, the moment an idea is disseminated, it prevents those that know of the idea from creating the same idea on their own. Further along the expression of the idea, into the final work or process that is protected by IP rights, rivalrous resources are consumed that could have been used otherwise.

The bottomline is that rivalry does not supercede the possessive quality of IP.

>how can you naturally (without government) own something that is infinite in amount that can be used without decreasing the supply?

The premise is fallacious, for all ownership is entailed by a human structure or agreement of some sort. Ideas are infinite in amount, but vary in value, there is a hierarchy in usefulness and desirability in ideas. If this was not true, every stupid suggestion would be cherished as much as every Nobel invention, or every idea thought of would be a ground breaker. At the level of consumable IP, scarcity becomes even more obvious, as it entails a resource cost for creation.

In that aspect, valuable ideas have a scarcity, and IP has the additional scarcity of the resources diverted into it to form the product.


 No.64443

File: 938d1890d999fb9⋯.png (28.59 KB, 256x256, 1:1, cattgirls.png)

>>64418

>>64419

Property is most easily defined by DDDEAL. What is DDDEAL? It means that private property has the following properties. It is…

Defineable

Defendable

Divestable (rid oneself of something that one no longer wants or requires)

Excludeable

Allocateable

Liable

IP is defineable because it's not an abstract thing in a stateless (or microstate) society. It requires proof of concept and typically brand recognition.

IP is divestable in that you can rid yourself of your claim over it at any time.

IP is excludeable in that you can actively dictate who can use it- that person might reverse-engineer their own product, but they quite clearly cannot use the FaggotAnon™️ brandname unless they move well outside your geographic region and can prove ownership of their own version of a business over whatever arbitrary time the society or court makes

IP is allocateable in that you can apportion it to another individual for the purpose of use.

IP is liable in that you can be sued for the damages caused by the product of your IP

The only feature that IP potentially lacks in is the "defendable" clause of DDDEAL as it requires a court to defend it, but, seeing as how most forms of property require a court for defense of them as there are legal grey areas even in property that require arbitration and decisions from a third party, this point is mostly null. One might argue that "just an idea" IP has no basis in reality and I would largely agree, but proof-of-concept IP is not the same thing in any sense of the word and meets all the requirements to be granted property rights. To say otherwise is to introduce an arbitrary basis into basis of private property even being private.

>>64345

>Copyright and patents serve the same purpose

When you don't even know the difference between a copyright and a patent, why should I take anything you have to say seriously? Your intellectual dishonesty is showing. Let me put this in simple terms for you to understand (not that you give a shit).

Copyrights protect the expression of an idea. It's why if you take a piece of artwork or a book to a publishing firm, they can't steal the work long enough to produce a copy of it and claim it as their own without giving you a penny. Copyrights handle expressions of IP, E.G. physical products and trademarks, but they don't protect the process in which you make them.

Patents are a strict monopoly on the right to make, use, reverse-engineer, or sell your IP. These have no legal basis.

Until you understand this difference, you're just spouting ideology with no basis in reality.


 No.64444

>>64378

Why are you screaming?


 No.64446

File: ef7446bed24b5f8⋯.png (113.06 KB, 500x312, 125:78, 1434866209278.png)

>If copyright was supposed to protect artists and authors, how were artists and authors able to create works in the thousands of years without copyright?

Because of that thing that a lot of AnCaps believe in, y'know, common law. For thousands of years '"international trade" was limited to a geographical area roughly the size of Texas, and language barriers prevented a need for extensive law past your own country where you'd quickly realize if someone stole your work. Also up until 1440 the printing press didn't exist and until the early 1600s it wasn't widespread enough for common use, so you had to do shit by hand if you wanted to copy works. Additionally they didn't have color printers/3D printers like we have today.

Additionally the Ancient Greeks had systems in place similar to IP, and I believe the ancient Chinese did as well though I'd have to double check that.


 No.64448

>>64446

Meant to quote >>64428

>>64433

Stop inflating copyright and patents as being the same thing when you don't even understand what IP actually is. It's not "just idears guis!"


 No.64449

>>64443

>Patents are a strict monopoly on the right to make, use, reverse-engineer, or sell your IP. These have no legal basis.

I don't see the fault in that. Ownership is a monopoly on the ability to use the aforementioned resource after all.


 No.64453

>>64443

okay, we can use this post to determine that he is merely a shitposter, pack it in we dont need to bump the thread anymore


 No.64455

>>64453

Probably his weakest defense of anything yet.


 No.64473

>>64446

>where you'd quickly realize if someone stole your work

But it's not illegal to steal the work if there's no copyright.


 No.68477

Is this thread broken? Posts are missing


 No.71879

bumping this thread for:

containing good discussion on a topic shitposters will make new threads for

having property defined with the DDDEAL

talking about common law a little bit

and finally, because all of the reasons not to are spooks lol I do what I want


 No.71894

>>63933

>hating innovation


 No.71916

>>64443

>Property is most easily defined by DDDEAL

Ease of definition does not constitute a valid argument. You have presented this definition many times on this board, but you have not established its logical necessity.

>IP is defineable because it's not an abstract thing in a stateless (or microstate) society. It requires proof of concept and typically brand recognition.

Providing evidence that you were the first to think of an abstract idea does not make the idea any less abstract.

>IP is excludeable in that you can actively dictate who can use it

Only insofar as you can impose your will upon others' use of their own property. This point essentially amounts to a "might makes right" argument.

>IP is liable in that you can be sued for the damages caused by the product of your IP

You can be sued for just about anything. The question is whether or not you are genuinely responsible for it. If you are not directly involved in the manufacture and distribution of that particular product, or if you have not contractually obligated yourself to assume responsibility, then you are not actually responsible for it.

>seeing as how most forms of property require a court for defense of them as there are legal grey areas even in property that require arbitration and decisions from a third party

This is again appealing to someone's ability to attempt something in a court, which does not in itself necessitate that the court adheres to reasonable standards.

>>Copyright and patents serve the same purpose

>When you don't even know the difference between a copyright and a patent

His statement, which you quoted, did not in any way imply that there were no differences between them. They serve the same purpose in different industries; to grant the creative party a transferrable privilege of monopoly over the abstract form of their creative work. There is nothing in his commentary which calls for your dismissal nor fails to convey the information in your subsequent efforts at clarification.

>Until you understand this difference, you're just spouting ideology with no basis in reality.

At the risk of provoking ill feelings, this is precisely what you have demonstrated here. You've made a series of claims with regard to your far-from-universal definition of property, and failed to coherently defend them, and have proceeded to make unduly dismissive comments seeking to clarify information which was already readily apparent in the remarks to which you were responding.

Your theory of property is noted with interest, but you've much more work cut out for yourself before you can rest on the notion that it is adequately established in this forum.

>>64446

>Because of that thing that a lot of AnCaps believe in, y'know, common law.

What relevance does this have? Traditional Common Law as supported by AnCaps does not make provision for ownership of the idea of an invention or creative work.

>For thousands of years '"international trade" was limited to a geographical area roughly the size of Texas

Perhaps in the "thousands of years" between the first man and the invention of sailing ships, but trade between the Mediterranean, Middle East, and Far East has been in practice for thousands of years.

>language barriers prevented a need for extensive law past your own country

Anyone who traveled much (like merchants) learned multiple languages as a matter of course.

>you'd quickly realize if someone stole your work

As noted elsewhere, it was not considered "stealing" due to a lack of patent and copyright law until relatively recent history.

>Also up until 1440 the printing press didn't exist and until the early 1600s it wasn't widespread enough for common use, so you had to do shit by hand if you wanted to copy works.

Printed works have never been the only form of creative works in circulation.

>Additionally the Ancient Greeks had systems in place similar to IP, and I believe the ancient Chinese did as well

Perhaps you're thinking of the areas of IP other than copyright and patent? Trade secrets are broadly considered to be IP as well, and there's nothing wrong with keeping a secret, in and of itself.

>>64449

>Ownership is a monopoly on the ability to use the aforementioned resource after all.

Ownership is the recognition of your exclusive right to control those rivalrous goods which you have secured for your own use without initiating a conflict with anyone else. Patent and copyright are grants of exclusive legal privilege to restrict how other people may use their property. If one owns something, they can exclude others from using that specific thing. If one possesses a patent or copyright, they are able to exclude others from using any and all things which they may possess in certain ways as dictated by the holder. The difference is significant.


 No.71922


 No.72469

File: c4f9d75e428544e⋯.jpg (17.94 KB, 246x300, 41:50, Mr Libertarian Software Ma….jpg)

>>63933

#NotAllCapitalists

ummm sweetie b4 u stereotype all capitalists, mayb uhhh u can do sum research mmmmmmkay? :kissing:


 No.72473

a free market is where you get free stuff


 No.72504

>>72469

who is it?


 No.72506

>>72504

Eric S. Raymond, the guy who sold out Free Software to the capitalists as """open source."""


 No.72576

>>72506

um sweetie no


 No.72578

>>72576

um sweetie yes


 No.72579

>>72576

He did with some friends make up Open Source to sell it to big corporations as a better way to develop and as a source of sweet, sweet free work. Supposedly it was to promote Free Software, but in effect it undermined it.


 No.72580

>>72579

So what was Free Software originally like?


 No.72619


 No.72629

>>71916

>Ownership is the recognition of your exclusive right to control those rivalrous goods which you have secured for your own use without initiating a conflict with anyone else. Patent and copyright are grants of exclusive legal privilege to restrict how other people may use their property. If one owns something, they can exclude others from using that specific thing. If one possesses a patent or copyright, they are able to exclude others from using any and all things which they may possess in certain ways as dictated by the holder. The difference is significant.

You literally contradict yourself in the second part of this sentence, while the rest of your claims just use arbitrary declarations to pretend IP differs from regular goods in ownership ability.

If ownership recognises the exclusive right for an individual to protect goods they have secured, then why can IP owners not exclude others from their IP, when the creation of such IP relied on securing it for its intended use, be it personal or for profit?


 No.74268

>>72506

>>72579

That was Tim O'Reilly you stupid dip.

Even then, F/OSS has progressed further with even more businesses using 'less strict' licences like the MIT, LGPL, or Apache Licenses.

Even freaking Microsoft has let go of part of the permissions in the forms of the ASP.NET Core and Xamarin, meaning any single person could immediately copy/fork the source code before MS changed their minds.


 No.81320

Bumpan this because the arguments within are relevant to the recent thread on IP


 No.82071

File: 4df24523439bf1d⋯.jpg (504.2 KB, 1200x1800, 2:3, Richard_Stallman_-_Fête_de….jpg)

>>63933

"Intellectual property" does not exist. It was a term invented by Jewish lawyers in the mid 20th century as a tool to infuse issues of patents, copyright, and trademark. These are three separate legal fields with three radically different legal frameworks. The term "intellectual property" is pure, unadulterated propaganda used to create a reactionary culture that sucks corporate cock. Copyright and patents are anti-capitalism as fuck. Copyright, if deemed by a libertarian society to be allowed to exist should last 10 years max, and that's being generous. This is one thing I actually agree with the fat commie jew on outside of free software.

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/not-ipr.en.html


 No.87932

https://infogalactic.com/info/Multiple_discovery

https://infogalactic.com/info/List_of_multiple_discoveries

I can see some value of IP for art (making sure original authors get paid for their work, at least for a while), but for science and technical patents the case is much weaker, at most I would have patents at one or two years.

The value to any related company in having a genius inventor on their team should be good compensation for both the inventor and primary developing company, without stifling scientific and economic development that would have occurred when someone else inevitably discovered/invented the same thing a short while later.

Buying patents in order to suppress competition is some BS that needs to end ASAP, can't imagine anything good coming from that whatsoever IRL.


 No.88064

>>64370

Businesses using anticonsumer practices like DRM would fall in a truly free market. We would see a huge increase in subscription-based sales models, though.




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