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/k/ - Weapons

Salt raifus and raifu accessories
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There's no discharge in the war!

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59f9f0  No.651534

I'm a noguns eurofag, so I don't really know how the different types of firearms work in real life. However, I am in the process of designing a major rebalance for a cyberpunk tabletop RPG, so I really need some ideas on how to balance the different types of weapons.

In the vanilla game, weapons are divided as:

>Light autopistols

Can hardly kill someone unarmored from a shot in the head. Very small ROF. Cheap, but then so are most non-heavy weapons in this game, so whatever.

>Medium autopistols

Same as light autopistols, except this time it is much more likely to kill someone with a headshot.

>Heavy autopistols

Now these do pack a punch, but are pretty much useless against most types of armor. They just do not deal enough damage because their caliber is relatively small.

>Very heavy autopistols

Now these DO deal a lot of damage. Slightly smaller ROF, but they can even penetrate most types of armor, so they are really a considerable weapon.

>Light SMG

Just objectively better than anything but very heavy autopistols. Like a medium autopistol, just very slightly more expensive (we may be talking 50% more expensive, but when medium autopistols cost 75 euros and characters start off with at least €2000, usually €3000, it doesn't make much sense), but better accuracy even on full auto (due to the way the shooting system works) and an absurd ROF.

>Medium SMG

Objectively better than light SMG, just very slightly more expensive. I am going to stop mentioning money because it really is symbolic.

>Heavy SMG

Less ROF than Medium and Light SMG, but much more damage.

>Assault rifles

They just shit on all other weapons it's not even funny. More accuracy, MUCH more damage (can easily blow up a leg in a single shot), more ROF than heavy SMG, more ammo capacity… I am having trouble with this the most, I just can't justify not getting an assault rifle, even factoring in weight and concealability, which are pretty much situational, and merely symbolic using the vanilla rules.

>Shotguns

They are shit. Lower accuracy (?), lower damage per shot than an assault rifle, shit ROF (even with autoshotguns)… for the time being, I have made them deal more damage per shot, but deal half damage against armored targets, and gave them an "expanded hit range", to simulate spread, which lets you hit enemies even under the target roll at reduced damage (to simulate a shot that did not hit all pellets).

>Heavy weapons and exotics

Exotics are so situational I am actually happy with them, so I will not bother describing them.

>Melee weapons

Yeah, they are not raifus, but they are shit. Keep in mind, in this setting, knifes can be made monomolecular (which basically means they should cut through armor like butter), and the RAW of combat do allow people to just jump into the enemy with the biggest gun and just chop him down before he can even react, so while they are not entirely useless, they deal really little damage for all the risk involved.

What can I do to make my players choose something else than an M16 without taking into account the cool factor? I thought about strict Constitution requirements, but I am not sure they would be remotely realistic. I also thought about linking revolver actually, I thought about adding a whole category of "uncapped" semiauto guns, most of them based on mounted on naval mounted gun technology, which according to some of my acquaintances, know of a guy with a patent that could attempt to make this a thing Real Soon(TM) shooting speed to Dexterity, which would allow you to do stuff like vid related. I also thought about reducing movement and Reflexes (which in this system takes the place of every other system's Dexterity) for anything that's not shooting if you have your weapon drawn out, so characters can choose to be more over the top gun acrobats if they grab the smaller weapons, but I don't know.

How would you parametrize weapon types, /k/?

59f9f0  No.651537

>>651534

For the record, the vanilla shooting mechanics are as following:

>In order to calculate your roll, you throw a d10, and add it to your Reflexes and skill with that specific type of weapon, which are divided into Handgun, SMG, Rifles and Heavy Weapons. I am not sure if this separation of skills is logical since I have only ever shot a small caliber shotgun, so I am not sure if I could simplify it further by merging SMG and Rifles, or if shooting both is really all that different to justify being unable to shoot one or the other, depending on how you are trained.

>Each weapon has an "effective range", at which your character will have an easy time (difficulty 15) hiting the target. Any shorter than that, and it is easier. Any further than that, and it is harder. Of course, rifles have the largest effective range, if we don't count the heavy weapons. Properly built characters will hit on the target 90% of the time, unless the distance is way over the effective range.

>Single shot mode gives no bonifications. Burst mode gives much more DPS than single shot mode, and also gives some symbolic extra accuracy. Full auto gives overkill levels of DPS, without any penalties to accuracy.

>There are no Constitution or Reflexes requirements to shoot without any recoil penalties. Even people with Constitution 2 (imagine the mighty Hotwheels) can shoot even the biggest weapons at full auto without any penalties. From what I understand, recoil in real life is pretty much a myth for anything but the weakest twigs and longest distances. FPSRussia was even able to shoot autoshotguns from the hip with a single arm without even flinching at one point, so there is that.

As you can see, there is just no reason not to use full auto rifles. Ever.


657b2a  No.651554

We have a video game thread.


59f9f0  No.651555

>>651554

This is actually tabletop


2c500b  No.651574

I'd personally have shotguns balanced as a light autopistol with multiple rolls to simulate each pellet, but that might be broken depending on how much damage a light auto pistol does.


771d26  No.651658

>>651534

Why are you using autopistols at all, anon? Especially multiple classes of them. They aren't really that useful or common IRL. I suggest you swap your "autopistols" for "pistols" instead, so that you have light mouseguns/pocket pistols in calibers like 380acp, medium compact pistols in average cartridges like Glock 19 in 9mm on the low side and something like laugo alien in 357sig on the high end (for lower recoil/better accuracy/etc) and heavy pistols aka full sized guns in big calibers like 10mm or 45 Super(like Bren Ten and HK Mark 23). Light and medium pistols are concealable and wearing a heavy pistol/LSMG doesn't immediately alert guards/target/police, while carrying a rifle sized gun might make people think that you're going to a fight and alert police or something. Light pistols could also be hidden so that police won't find them even if they search you.

Use "light SMG" as autopistol instead. Weak rounds, short barrels, compact size, that all basically merges these two.And i think that best way to define autopistol is "a compact SMG that is designed to be carried as a sidearm" There are autopistols in medium rounds but they are less practical and basically the same thing if used with a stock.

>Medium SMG

That's your basic long gun, i.e. it carries like a rifle, on a sling instead of a holster. Put most modern SMGs in here.

>Heavy SMG

MP5/10 or similar. Can put here rifles in cartridges like .458 SOCOM and .50 Beowulf as well, though that's a stretch.

>Assault rifles

Bigger size, more weight and less maneuverability for the power of a heavy SMG up close and greater range.

>Shotguns

DPS of a MSMG(because of ROF) on an unarmored target with A LOT more crit chance, shit against armor(like very shit, MSMGs can go through soft armor today, while shotguns suck even against the weakest ones), buff accuracy, limit range, make someone roll not just for "hit or miss" but for the coverage of the target so you could have not hit/miss but 1-2miss/3-4partial hit/5-6hit, where partial hit cannot crit or just deals half damage. Range is slightly less than that of MSMGs(assuming modern and not "future" standards, then it could change a lot for SMGs), weight and maneuverability are that of an AR. Can be used for breaching and trick shots like an EMP/explosive/flechette/tazer shells.

>Melee weapons

Unless you introduce some special condition that renders firearms useless for some time like smoke, electricity shutdown, hacking the weapon, etc, they are pointless. Could be useful if these conditions are common enough to require players to get into melee combat and be tough enough to survive it.

Could make revolvers into a separate category similar to medium pistols but they cannot be shut down by an EMP or are somehow similarly "old guns" in that some restrictions of other firearms do not apply to them.


771d26  No.651677

>>651658

Also, throw in an ability "suppressive fire" for autopistols if there is such thing in your game. And buff accuracy over large pistols due to adding a stock, maybe take more action points to engage the stock for that accuracy buff.


f43be7  No.651678

Why are you trying to design a game around 2nd or 3rd hand knowledge? What can you possibly add to the genre that isn't just rehashing someone else's work?


ecfd70  No.652168

>>651574

Shotguns deal 4d6 on vanilla rules, 4d10 on my custom patch right now. That's enough to reduce someone to a pulp if you get four tens. My custom rules dictate:

>When shooting against an armored target, you roll half the dices instead, unless you are using slug ammo. This will only pierce light armor most of the time, and not by much.

>Shotguns get an "expanded range" to hit. Your roll loses dice for each unit your roll is below the target (that is, if you have target 15, and you roll 12, you deal 1d10, as 15 - 12 = 3, and 4d10 - 3d10 = 1d10)

>Slugs deal 4d10 damage (your average AR deals 5d6; from my limited understanding, slugs should deal even more damage, but I am considering lowering per bullet damage in AR to avoid making them so absurdly lethal compared to even explosives) with +10 to armor piercing (that is enough to go through most medium armors without losing any damage), but lose their expanded range.

>>651637

>Why do you cling to this idea that damage must always be balanced by ROF? Don't punish people for picking good guns.

No, I just don't want to punish people for attempting to use guns. A single guy with an AR can easily kill an entire squad of armored guys, in a single turn, because vanilla rules state that they have a higher theoretical (and most times practical) DPS than a C4 right on top of the enemy. From a balance standpoint it makes no sense, so I need a way to reduce their lethality. High lethality is fun, but getting wiped without being able to react because an NPC rolled too high in initiative, or having the guy with the most initiative in your team finish every single combat without other players being able to do jack shit isn't fun.

>Pick a few cartridges you like and assign damage by looking at energy, momentum, ballistic gel trials, whatever you want.

Yes, all bullet based weapons deal a number of d6 (except snipers, which deal d10 armor piercing) based on their caliber, plus a small static number of damage. I like it this way, but I will also consider your tip of adding extra damage for unusually long barrels.

>All rounds have two penetration scores, if target armor is above these damage is greatly reduced, if between you deal full damage, if below you over penetrate and deal half damage. You can be extra autistic and check targets behind the overpenned guy, in which case the round's penetration score is reduced by the armor of the target it passed through.

How does the overpen work? Wouldn't getting a bullet pierce through your entire torso be absurdly lethal as well? I like the idea overall, though.

>All rounds have a to hit penalty based on their power, except for .22 which has no penalty.

I take this is in order to simulate recoil. Should I take into account the user's Constitution, Finesse or Reflexes in order to reduce this penalty? Should I specify this penalty has to be dropped on the first shot? What's the rationale behind .22 being immune to this penalty (not being inquisitive, I literally have no fucking idea)?

>Y is max effective range, for targets further away you get a to hit penalty for every so many meters. For pistols Y would be about 25 m, revolvers 40, shotguns with slug 50, smg 100, assault rifles 300-400, bolt action 700, sniper rifles 1 km. X is the min effective range and based on compactness of weapon. Targets closer than X incur a hefty ROF penalty. X could be 1m for pistol and revolver, 3m for SMG, shotgun and assault rifle 10m, bolt action 20m, and so on.

I really, really like this idea. I have always heard using guns at melee range is a bad idea, but is it really that noticeable in a real combat situation? As in, is it that hard to fire an AR from the hip at a guy at 1 meter from you?

>ROF doesn't depend on IRL ROF of the weapon except for suppressing fire or firing without aiming. The ROF stat represents how quickly you can aim, so you could call it aim speed or something.

I like the idea a lot, but what happens once it's been aimed? The vanilla system lets you shoot all 30 bullets to the enemy, with no penalty (although most of the time you won't hit all of them due to the way the full auto system works, but whatever). Is this realistic at all? It is basically a superior version of single bullet firing, with the only disadvantage being you waste some bullets and have to reload next turn, but it's not like you can't choose how many bullets you want to shoot (vanilla rules, doesn't aound very realistic to me) so this is moot.

>Also I wouldn't use a stat at all. Looking at actual pro shooters, they don't really seem to be particularly agile or otherwise remarkable.

I was thinking about using Finesse for most aimed shots, Reflexes for reaction shots with little to no aiming, and Sharpness (intelligence)/Knowledge for ultra long range targets (think kilometer long sniper shots). There is no Wisdom stat in my system, but either Knowledge or Resolve could do the trick.

Thanks a lot for all the suggestions, anon.


ecfd70  No.652186

>>651658

>Why are you using autopistols at all, anon? Especially multiple classes of them.

It's the vanilla system. I think the auto part here refers to semiauto pistols, since their ROF is worse than 1 bullet per second. If it were me, I would divide pistols between normal pistols and heavy pistols, with maybe a few entries for extra small pistols that can be concealed pretty much anywhere.

<Assault rifles

>Bigger size, more weight and less maneuverability for the power of a heavy SMG up close and greater range.

I take less maneuverability would imply a penalty to movement and acrobatics, or at least while holding the gun, right? Should Heavy SMG have a similar, but more reduced penalty?

>Unless you introduce some special condition that renders firearms useless for some time like smoke, electricity shutdown, hacking the weapon, etc, they are pointless. Could be useful if these conditions are common enough to require players to get into melee combat and be tough enough to survive it.

According to vanilla rules (and also my modified rules), some guys react so much fucking faster than other people that they can just jump in front of you and cut you in half before you have the time to react. We are talking about full retard roided cyborgs here, after all, but it's mostly a side product of the turn system.

I can imagine why bringing a bat to a gun fight would be useless, but if we were to be imaginative with the melee weapons (sci-fi shit), and assume you can either dodge bullets or jump on top of someone before they can even aim, would it make sense to give them more DPS than an AR? We would be talking about vibroswords (like Raiden's in Metal Gear Rising) designed to cut through most hard materials like they were butter, cartridged concussive weapons (imagine a hammer with a "shotgun" at the tip that propels the weapon as it is about to hit), plasma swords, retard tasers, etc.


771d26  No.652205

>>652186

>I think the auto part here refers to semiauto pistols

Oh, okay then. They must have meant autoloading pistols.

>I take less maneuverability would imply a penalty to movement and acrobatics

Probably also sneak and reaction time. Just imagine that you've got a rifle that's pretty long and front-heavy and you have to maneuver it in tight corridors. if you cannot, pick a broom and walk around house holding it horizontally, i dunno.

>some guys react so much fucking faster than other people

Unless they can outrun a bullet it doesn't change the balance much, just renders the ones without these mods fucking useless.

> if we were to be imaginative with the melee weapons (sci-fi shit)

Again, no matter how good your lightsabers are, unless they can block bullets or you can dodge or outrun them you're better off with something that has one property that doesn't qualify your weapon as a melee one - range.

>jump on top of someone before they can even aim

If you have time to run up to and jump on someone then you have time to accurately shoot them in the right eye many many more times, that's the thing.

>would it make sense to give them more DPS than an AR?

Theoretically? yes. Practically? Guns already shoot guys dead, you can't make them more dead after that. Unless you've got some unkillable cyborgs that will go on after having half their torso torn off so the guns are ineffective, then some lightsaber could probably make sense, but still, a blaster would make even more sense even in such a situation.


771d26  No.652218

>>652205

Fuck, wrong formatting. Swap this for this.


e31554  No.652381

>>652168

Overpenetration means the bullet didn't dump all its force into the target. Think about stabbing some cardboard with an icepick vs hitting it with a hammer. The icepick will put a small hole through it whereas the hammer might not penetrate all the way, but it damages way more than just the small point. Obviously, a fast hit with all the force centralized into one point is good for going through armor, but it's also why the rounds are somewhat less effective against unarmored targets. Don't go full retard reducing damage to unarmored people from AP rounds, though- as you say, it's still potentially lethal. I'd say maybe 3/4ths damage would be fair.

As for .22, it's because the actual cartridges are about as long as a bottlecap and really fucking tiny. The to-hit penalty should be increased by range and with follow-up shots. Some rounds recoil really hard and that can cause shooters (especially inexperienced ones) to fuck up their aim as they brace for recoil before even pulling the trigger. I'd say for larger rounds, add a reduceable to-hit penalty based off skill on the first shot and for smaller cartridges, only add the penalty for followup shots. Allow player level/skill to reduce the penalty further.

>ROF

You don't explain how exactly turns are calculated. If it's 6 seconds per turn or something a rifle firing full-auto runs out in about 2.7-3 seconds assuming a 30rd magazine.

If you use the scaling to-hit based off round count, players can choose how many hits they want to attempt. What might be interesting is implementing a randomizer for untrained player; add extra dice to how many shots they fire after deciding to stop. Nobody can effectively count rounds in combat, but more experienced people can estimate.

>Range

Yes. A gun with a 46 inch OAL is very clunky at short range. Hip firing is for retards. You can see all the long rifles were replaced by carbines in WWI and almost discarded when it came to trench warfare. Players could maybe take a perk called Point Shooting to reduce this penalty, but it should still be stiff. This encourages players to have lighter, smaller guns for close quarters.


56eab0  No.652389

File: a5bbe70ebb91464⋯.png (171.06 KB, 941x914, 941:914, banners are gods.png)


d43987  No.652863

I'd suggest you put a greater focus on characters building/customising their guns.

>Weapon class

<Pistol, smg, rifle carbine, rifle, rifle long, rifle heavy

Use these to set min and max weapon weight and dimensions (affect carrying capacity and weapon speed [applies larger penalties to hit/retarget at larger minimum range - you can shoot something quicker & more accurately at 2 ft with a pistol than you can with a Barrett M82])

>Round

<Sets required barrel calibre, optimum barrel length, recoil, projectile range, damage, and penetration

Don't restrict this to weapon classes, if one of your players wants to make a 14.5x114mm derringer, or a vehicle mounted .410 minigun then let them - maybe a warning if you're a lenient DM, but it's not your job to stop your players being retarded/having fun.

>Barrel

<Calibre, length, weight

Calibre needs to match round; shorter than optimal reduces accuracy, damage, penetration - but lowers the weapon speed modifier. Also adds to weapon weight (which increases to the speed mod and reduces recoil).

>Action

<Rate of fire, type, reliability

Reliability would be what happens when your characters roll crit fails, rate of fire should be pretty self explanatory, type is bolt action/semi auto/burst/full auto.

>Mods

Think up a couple of modifications your characters could add to an already built weapon without going through a full rebuild.

>Accessories

Go full tacticool, and let your players build homebrew knockoffs too

>Recoil

<(Nr * Rr) - Ww = Pr

Nr = number of rounds fired that turn

Rr = rounds recoil value

Ww = Weapon weight mod

Pr = Recoil Penalty applied to accuracy next round

It's just an idea, but should be a good starting point if you want your players to start modding/building their own firearms or just want a system to put together your own guns for the game




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