/k/ - Weapons

>>628762

And even this won't go through in one shot. Level IV body armor is rated to stop AP 30-06.

>>628773

>listening to marines

Not since they allowed women and faggots into their ranks. I'd rather listen to a Kenyan witch doctor than your average marine.

>>628773

But the marines are the marketing jews

>>628773

Marines are adopting it as well. It's cheaper, better than the old round, and seems to be more accurate out of the M4. If you want to argue for a different caliber, be my guest, but M855A1 is Good Enough™.

>>628787

>Nation with pride

That’s why comrade Putin made Anti-Semitism illegal, right Leaf?

>>628793

>Better than the old round

Nothing is better than M193.

All 5.56 rounds are WORSE than the original which is some feat.

>>628791

Wait hold the fuckin phone. How was the A10 a German thing?

>>628850

Hans was asked for a retarded amount of output for said craft. It for all intent and purpose is a jet powered stuka/190

>>628825

Except Mk262

>>628793

>It's cheaper

No

>better than the old round

No

>more accurate

No

>>628861

If we're limiting ourselves to military ammo, I'd say mk 318 fits that list also.

>>628791

This. Americucks never invented a single thing. They only take the accomplishments of Europeans and claim it as their own or just make shitty knock offs. Americans are what happens when you mix jews and chinks and add niggers to the godawful mix.

>>628879

>no flag

>>628759

>implying russians use the same standards as the west does when it comes to anything

If I recall they've got ten levels of armor classification.

>>628942

american not leaf

>>628931

Russian armor standards are weird. Class 1 can stop 9x18 makarov Steel penetrator so probably 9mm HP or even FMJ as well. Level 2 can stop 7.62x25 tokarev and so seems to be stronger than 3a that cannot. 2A can stop 12 gauge so it's probably worse than level 1. Level 3 stops AKM or AK74 steel cores so its basically lvl3 NIJ. Level 4 is like level 3 but stops new standard issued 5.45x39"high penetration" with hardened steel core. Beyond that they go with 7.62x54r, same but AP, 7.62x39AP/API etc. There are several different classes that are differentiated only by stopping API rounds and i dunno if one class includes another as lvl 6 stops x54r AP and lvl6A stops x54r API, which one is stronger who the fuck knows.

That's old classification, though.

The new one is a bit simpler but there's less info on that.

Basically:

Lvl 1 - steel core makarov, it's a bit higher than lvl I NIJ

Lvl 2 - 9x19 +p Russian load, FMJ, nearly lvl II NIJ, they probably copied that

Lvl 3 - stops 9x19 AP vodoo magic(albeit older one - 7N21, 7N31 will go through), it's your IIIA NIJ(that one can actually stop the 9mm AP too, surptisingly)

lvl 4 - 5.45/7.62x39mm AP, basically lvl III NIJ

lvl 5 - 7.62x54r AP(all types), basically lvl IV NIJ

lvl 6 - stops 12.7x108mm API(basically .50 BMG from warsaw pact), the only purpose is to show off, i suppose.

There seems to be a trend in Russian army to copy US designs and decisions, probably they don't want to fund their own research or whatever.

>>628947

>So the thread is still stupid since it's the armor is made to stop bullets with steel penetrators

Not just with steel penetrators like m855, 7N10 actually has hardened steel core. It really fels like they like to put these cores into everything and aren't afraid to temper them.

>it being "high strength steel"

<The virgin M855A1 "high strength steel"

<The Chad 7N10 Hardened core not even called AP by its users

>>628793

>>628823

> It's cheaper, better than the old round

Price wise M855>M855A1>Mk 318.

>>628825

>>628823

>It's a shit round

M885A1 is the best round design from terminal performance against humanoids point of view ever. It fragments down to at least 1900 FPS has no fleet yaw issues at all, starts fragmenting only after 1 of travel in flesh with 20+ of max penetration and has respectable for non tungsten AP intermediate caliber penetration penetration (goes through level UHMWPE and steel level III plates). Its ideal.

>>628826

>I didn’t claim it was a armour penetration improvement the Jews taking your tax dollars did.

M885A1 goes through 1/4'' AR500 plates, M855 doesn't.

>>628959

>M885A1 is the best round design from terminal performance against humanoids point of view ever

That's some quality shitposting right here

>>628951

Actually, i got it wrong. NIJ classification doesn't consider AP ammo(except IV) while Russian classification does that as a standard.

>>628964

Show me better .223 cal bullet.

>>628974

Literally any soft point.

Can anyone confirm that the Soviets stopped using the 7.62x25 because it was over powered ? The Makarov seems anemic when compared. Russian don’t seem to go backwards so just wondering why

>>628975

Only soft point that fragments and does 20'' of penetration at the same time is Mk 318. Yeah it pretty close to M855A1 but it can't go through level III armor.

Civilian soft points either don't fragment or can't do 20''.

>>628978

They stopped using SMGs in general when the AK got issued to everyone but the MG and DMR guy. 9x18 is perfect for simple blowback guns unlike 7.62 tok.

>>628947

>>628951

Thanks. I don't have my slav lackeys around right now to ask benign questions

>>628978

Well, the official version is that the round was designed for longer barrels and not very fitted for pistols, causing great muzzle flash, overpenetration and insufficient stopping power. The unofficial one and the one that i think is the main reason to change rounds at all regardless of choice is gun control - tokarev rounds were basically everywhere after the war, as well as guns for them so any population disarming attempt wouldn't work well. They could also choose 9x18 due to their calculated "stopping power" that might have been faked for aforementioned purpose or the need for a more compact police weapon for peaceful time, though the main reason would remain the same. Never trust leftist scum, never rely on their empty promises and never offer them help.

>>628980

>Civilian soft points either don't fragment

That's a good thing you illiterate mongoloid.

>>628988

>That's a good thing you illiterate mongoloid.

Wrong.

http://ciar.org/ttk/mbt/papers/misc/paper.x.small-arms.wounding-ballistics.patterns_of_military_rifle_bullets.fackler.unk.html

>synergistic effect of temporary cavitation acting on tissue that has been weakened by bullet fragmentation

>direct linking to cuckrangetv

>>628990

You literally wrote it yourself right now - fragmentation is worse than expansion. Learn to read and kill yourself, you inbred retarded nigger.

>>628995

>much enlarged permanent cavity

At the cost of temporary cavity. It doesn't do shit.

>>628989

<citation needed

If you don't understand why a solid copper plug and steel arrowhead is more expensive than lead and a thin sheet of copper you're beyond helping.

<can be remotely close to m88A1 brilliance

Unsubstantiated claims of yaw-independence don't mean shit compared to real data. You can see the pics in my last post, M855, as shitty a round as it is, still provides better terminal results than M855A1.

>Non fragmenting underperformers

That's a good thing retard, expansion is always preferable as a wounding mechanic to fragmentation.

>>628997

>permanent damage doesn't do shit

I can understand why you are so triggered too Russians can't into fragmenting bullets because laws of war so they stuck with mediocre e tumbling shit.

>>628999

>No argument

Are you from norway? That's some serious fucking leafposting right here.

>>628998

>no cost proof

But i have price proof no less but from US Treasury.

>>628998

>xpansion is always preferable as a wounding mechanic to fragmentation.

>>628995

>Unsubstantiated claims of yaw-independence don't mean shit compared to real data.

In all real world testing M855A1 starts to fragments dater 1'. It clearly is not tumbling dependent but acts as sort of hollow point tipped bullet, but instead of the polymer tip it has steel tip. BTW long there was copper tipped expanding bullet in US forgot its name. Long banned by ATF as AP round.

>>629001

>bullet purpose in not making permanent holes in people

>>629004

>If i strawman using false quotations Israel would allow me to have this super effective cop killer bullet all the good goys have been talking of

>>629005

>ignored

>>629006

>rubs hands

>>629003

>In all real world testing M855A1

See pics in >>628984

>>628980

>Mk 318

>soft point

wot

>>629036

Post another 300 of each so we have something to actually compare.

>>629097

Making the barrel extension out of something like D2 tool steel like those high end AR15 bolts would make them hold up just fine. Hammer forged barrels are already work hardened due to the manufacturing process so they already will last, if they wanted to have an even harder barrel surface then they could make them out of more expensive materials like the barrel extension.

Guns are made by the lowest bidder from the cheapest material that is sufficient, paying more quickly gets you a vastly superior firearm.

>>629103

>Cost increases of 20-30%

>Performance increases of 2-3%

<Vastly superior

>>629104

>Performance increases of 2-3%

D2 tool steel has roughly twice the tensile strength of Carpenter 158 while having higher hardness and superior corrosion resistance. So just slightly better than the 2-3% you pulled out of your ass.

>>629106

I'm not saying that you are necessarily wrong, I just want to see reliability stress tests, and average part life time expectancy as compared to normal mil-spec parts, a lot of companies will over hype their own stuff for the purpose of garnering interest.

For example, it's not necessarily so that the steel having twice the tensile strength means that it actually will last twice as long.

Reposting my comment from another thread >>629105

So you niggers actually think M855A1 is a good idea? Why?

It's just a waste of money on (((green))) ammunition, the round itself doesn't provide any real world benefit for the soldiers over M855, or even M193 for that matter, it just costs more and wears out the firearm faster, for no fucking benefit, it doesn't penetrate any armor that the M855 wouldn't, and it doesn't cause more wounding than the M855, and most certainly not more than the M193.

It's just gay faggot shit that will cost a fuckton of money for absolutely no improvement in individual soldier combat ability.

>>629107

>For example, it's not necessarily so that the steel having twice the tensile strength means that it actually will last twice as long.

The life expectancy of parts such as the bolt in an AR15 is effected by material strength and hardness. Part wear can be thought of as two different processes, one in which load cycling slowly causes the part to fail and the other where the metal is slowly worn away. Material strength effects the first one since the load cycling comes down to how close you get to the materials yield strength each time you load it, if your material is stronger then the yield point is higher and so less wear will occur each time you load cycle it. Material hardness is as the name implies how hard the surface of the material is and by extension its resistance to being scratched, if you have a part such as the feed ramps on a barrel extension being exposed to a hardened steel penetrator then the one made of the harder material will not wear down as easily (if the difference in hardness is enough it won't wear down at all) which is whats relevant to the thread.

In terms of verified reliability, standard AR15 bolts were designed and are built with a safety factor in mind but even after significant use the lugs can still crack and fall off, the infamous AR15 filthy 14 which was run for something like 30,000 rounds with minimal cleaning actually broke two bolt lugs at around 16,500 rounds.

>>629108

Have they actually confirmed they are using telescoping ammo? unless they have I doubt they are going to go with it.

>>629108

Can someone explain to me why the hell would you want environment friendly bullets? I doubt someone worried about polluting the soil would also be worried about making more efficient devices to kill people.

>>629111

It's not for people it's for the ranges.

Lots of ranges are so full of lead it affect local water tables, so the ranges have to pay for decontamination or pretty steep fees.

>>629101

>I-it's just an outlier!

The difference is easily visible from a naked eye inspection. But even if we assume that you're correct, and that the average performance favors M855A1, then its performance increase compared to M855 is so mild as not to justify the myriad negatives of the round.

>>629036

Read this

>>628989

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/07/28/weekly-dtic-fleet-yaw-problem-improving-rifle-effectiveness/

>>629111

>Can someone explain to me why the hell would you want environment friendly bullets?

Because EPA are Gods.

Either MoD cleans ALL their lead waste from firing ranges or they do green bullet. MoD picked green bullet option.

>>629131

Fleet yaw. Google it.

>>629154

>>629160

Fleet yaw does not explain the obviously smaller wound cavity of M855A1.

>>629172

MPD explains it.

What fleet yaw explain that M855 terminal effects are unreliable. It can zip thorough body without tumbling.

Also with early fragmenting of M855A1 does much more damage to the limbs (and limbs hits are 50% of all wounds). And with modern use of body armor bullets are forced to rely on peripheral hits much more.

>>629176

>M855A1 is better against body armor

>Ackshually M855A1 is better for limb shots, which are the important thing because people shoot around body armor

Just pick one and stick with it Chaim, this is getting embarrassing.

>>629245

>Just pick one

Why? It does both. Its better than M855 against body armor (level III) and with peripheral hits.

>>629250

Oh shut up already, you fucking jew. Your bullet is dogshit.

>>628823

>thanks to near-proof chamber pressure

This was a primer problem and it's been resolved. Source your claims, faggot. Most of this shit is made-up garbage.

>so after switching to M855A1 the whole unit has to re-zero

You say this as if this isn't regularly done regardless. Have you ever been in the military?

>designed to adhere to King Nigger-era training regulations with muh lead-free round

You realize this round was in development far before he was president, right?

I find it really funny that people like you think they know better than everyone involved testing and developing this shit, when you can't even get your basic facts straight.

>>628762

>>628759

M855A1 was specifically chosen because it is a POG and JSOC wet dream because it can go through steel WWII helmets at 1000 yards, is "green" (ie low lead) because only a west point graduate could think elemental lead was damaging to the environment, and is basically match grade which triples the price per round.

As to why they wanted it to penetrate a WWII helmet… See, Russians kept the same steel shell of a helmet from WWII, but they continued to add improvements inside the helmet which weren't visible from the outside observer. For example their 90s helmet had an aramid fiber liner that was light years ahead of Kevlar. But the superficial resemblance meant retarded Pentagon brats thought Russians were using pure steel helmets about 1/16th of an inch thick, which is why M855A1 had that requirement, and why 5.56 ball was rejected.

Unfortunately a steel bullet has less mass and less momentum than a lead bullet, which means it has less effect on soft target. It's also ridiculously expensive considering it can't penetrate the armor of any of Americas superstate rivals.

>>629307

Match means they took the time to make sure there were consistent grains in load and consistent grains per casing. Most assault rifle ammo doesn't do this, there's no point considering the engagement range or the purpose of the rifle. M855 was basically match grade too compared to contemporary assault rifle ammo.

>>629131

>T-take my word for it!

No.

>>629308

>burger armor for burgers

I take back anything mean I've ever said about Canada, Leafs are America's true greatest allies. Someone get this man a contract with the DoD and honorary citizenship.

>>629302

>Unfortunately a steel bullet has less mass and less momentum than a lead bullet

You realize that the bullets are both 62 grains, right?

>It's also ridiculously expensive considering it can't penetrate the armor of any of Americas superstate rivals.

30-06AP can't penetrate that shit either. Level IV armor is made specifically to counter this threat. Does that mean nothing short of .300winmag will work now?

>because only a west point graduate could think elemental lead was damaging to the environment

Idiot, it's about the troops on training grounds. They don't want to have to clean that shit up.

>and is basically match grade which triples the price per round.

It isn't match grade, and it doesn't triple the price. It's a few cents more, if that, and seems to be doing just fine. In fact, for a while it was causing problems because it was going through the walls on shoot houses. Seems like a job well done to me.

Yaw is a myth, 55 grain ball killed because it fragmented. Not magical tumbling or minor yawing, because the fucking bullet fragmented so quickly, so violently it acted more like a soft point or hollow point than any FMJ, or any bullet meant for the Hague. Yaw was named as the culprit because some Hague Convention followers didn't like the idea of a bullet that fragmented in flesh and might violate the Convention. Also 55 grain ball sucked fucking dick for penetrating ANYTHING, much less armor of any type. Again, the helmet thing was another excuse, not the real reason. Fragmenting high velocity ball might damage a person, but the same fragile projectile that fragmented in people has a nasty tendency to fragment in pretty much everything else. In combat, barrier penetration is important, so at some point the military wanted a bullet that didn't blow up into a bajillion pieces when it hit any barrier instead of punching through and hitting the guy behind it.

Decrease lethality, yes. Increased barrier penetration, yes. It was a major tradeoff, but it satisfied the humanitarians as well as finding a bullet that could pierce more cover reliably. Green tip may ice pick (nothing to do with barrel twist, 55 grains didn't yaw and tumble they fragmented, 62 grainers stick together and don't fragment in flesh) but it also reaches out and touches.

>the new super projectiles are designed to pierce Eurasian hard armor on people

Bullshit. Like the helmet excuse for green tips, this is a misnomer, and excuse. The entire point of this new round is to keep the barrier penetration of the 62 green tips and hopefully magically add the fragmenting properties of 55 grainers somehow at the same time and get the best of both worlds. Wither they can pull it off as effectively as they claim is another issue entirely.

In overall, its one of that fatal flaws of 5.56/223 is that any bullet really good at tissue destruction will be very poor at barrier penetration, any bullet good at barrier penetration will be poor at tissue damage. This new bullet is trying to save 5.56/223's ass from yet another legitimate criticism's of its shortcomings. (The wonder kids got greedy and picked the smallest cartridge they thought they could get away with. The British were right all along with .270-280 and 224 is simply too small for universal ball applications)

>>629371

>Does that mean nothing short of .300winmag will work now?

Steel .300 winmag doesn't really penetrates level IV either.

>>629434

Well known problem with armor piercing for a very long time is that increased velocity will often times decrease penetration. At some point the higher velocity causes the bullet to fail, too much stress and dynamics, the physics are all there to cause the bullet to simply shatter, fragment, fail. At some point many rounds have a perfect optimum velocity for penetration, maximum velocity without going over the brink.

This was the cap of standard anti tank high carbon steel armor piercing rounds back in the day. Hyper velocity anti tank rounds didn't come about until they could make tungsten or other hard core material that could withstand impacts at higher velocities without shattering like glass. This meant that standard steel projectiles basically had a velocity ceiling that limited the effectiveness of a caliber, either make a heavier projectile for caliber or build a bigger gun.

Without the right material and build, sometimes faster is worse.

>>629438

Its just ceramics are too tough for steel.

>Hyper velocity anti tank rounds didn't come about until they could make tungsten or other hard core material that could withstand impacts at higher velocities without shattering like glass.

Modern tank APFSDS are made from tungsten/DU alloya that have tensile strength and elongation than best steels. And they work differently, long rods are eroding penetrators and destroy themselves during penetration. Its just who ends first armor or rod.

>>629371

>30-06AP can't penetrate that shit either. Level IV armor is made specifically to counter this threat

Russian nomenclature level IV armour is different from NATO nomenclature level IV, it's rated to stop standard issue 5.45.

>>629443

Plate in question is rated vs 7.62x54R API.

http://guns.allzip.org/topic/92/489127.html

>>629438

>Hyper velocity anti tank rounds didn't come about until they could make tungsten or other hard core material that could withstand impacts at higher velocities without shattering like glass.

KEP development was short term, in a matter of mere years all the major powers had KEP for their front-line armor during the Second World War, keeping a near parallel pace with RHA development. Tungsten has been a strategic resource since before World War One, primarily in mining and high-heat applications, but it's used in KEP development began with the Germans in their Anti-Air shell development, and was swiftly adopted into use in armor by the Brits (APCR) and US (HVAP), with development of the APDS by the Brits debuting in 1943.

>>629441

Well, for APFSDS is a bit more complicated. Long rod are more recent development and armor thickness has it limitations (in reference to RHA), which is why development in ERA and APS is on the rise, but with that comes segmented long rod penetrators. What makes armors like Dorchester and Chobham so special is their similar function to SAPI carbide based composite plates, as they plates are struck, the composite shatters, causing it to become denser and denser, making penetration a near impossibility as the shatter composite simply absorbs the kinetic energy of the penetrator, cause it to stick in the armor like an arrow.

>>629371

>You realize that the bullets are both 62 grains, right?

To carry out that magical feat, it would have to be longer, which would ruin the ability to yaw and create unnecessarily higher chamber pressures. Is it longer?

Also learn how to write nigger I can hardly read that tit-for-tat greentext bullshit comment.

>>629679

The purpose of M855A1 was to make a less yaw-sensitive round.

>>629679

>To carry out that magical feat, it would have to be longer

It is longer.

>>629679

>which would ruin the ability to yaw

Actually longer rounds are less stable anon. But it doesn't mater because with EPR design (what is now would be used in all bullets and calibers not just M885A1) US went away from tumbling bullets because they are bad and unreliable. >>629154

>>629679

>To carry out that magical feat, it would have to be longer

It is.

>which would ruin the ability to yaw and create unnecessarily higher chamber pressures. Is it longer?

It's using a different powder and while chamber pressures are higher, they are not as high as has been claimed ITT and others. Yes, it's a longer bullet, seated deeper in the case.

>Also learn how to write nigger I can hardly read that tit-for-tat greentext bullshit comment.

I write just fine. Maybe learn how to read, you syrup-sucking butt pirate.

>>629740

>tumbling bullets

There was never a 5.56 NATO round in US inventory designed to tumble.

>>629740

Everyone and their mother knows rounds under 80 grain tend to have trouble penetrating brush without going off target, the Russians are learning that to their detriment with 5.45. Dickheads reduced 5.56 to 60 grains, and then even made the bullet less dense and had to make unreasonable chamber pressures to get it to remain at 60 grains.

BUT AT LEAST IT CAN GO THROUGH STEEL HELMETS NO ONE USES

5.56 history itself is the best fucking argument to upgun to 6.5 or 6.8, or even .300 niggers….

>>629941

>I write

No you don't, you take a dump on the keyboard and as it inveigles itself into the keys you post what text results from it.

>just

Fucking cuck.

>fine.

Your mom was last time I banged her.

^ This is your idea of a conversation, go shoot yourself in the foot and learn the concept of a sentence and paragraph.

>>629972

There were 5.56 rounds initially (maybe) using tumbling properties. Terminal ballistics studies during ACR prorgam era were like

>shoot all candidates into soap and gelatin blocks

>.223 leave big holes

>who cares why just lets use it

And of ocurse non-tumbling small caliber (including 7.62) FMJ rounds can't leave big holes

If you waste millions in research and marketing only to at the end of the day arm your troops with weapons and ammunition incapable of killing armored targets at long distances then you should be unironically hanged for sabotage.

>>628981

Then why does my 7.62x25 go through my East German helmet and 9mm only dents it. Same for level III(a) body armour

>>630056

Remember burgers can't advertise main advantage of the M855A1 for full affect - that is chad fragmenting dum-dum bullet when other countries stuck with cuck humanitarian virgin bullets. Because this violates laws of war.

>>630056

The US already has AP rounds. I don't know why you faggots keep going on about this. M855A1 was never meant as an AP round. It just penetrates cover better than M855 while retaining good terminals ballistics.

>>630011

>This is your idea of a conversation

I think you're just angry that I'm taking you point by point, while all you can do is keep saying outsourced stupidity the whole time. Learn to read and maybe stop being such a faggot.

>>630097

>5,56

>AP

ahahahahah

Why didn't the US military adopt the Black Hills 90gr JHP?

>>630103

See:

>>628762

AP designation in ammo doesn't mean that it's meant to defeat all armor. It means that it generally has an increased effect on armored targets, and is enough to compromise the armor itself. I get it, you don't actually know anything about weapons, and have probably never even held one, but this is how things are designated. 7.62 has its ball, target, and AP counterparts as well, those also do not pierce Level IV body armor.

>>630127

>It doesn't have to penetrate body armor, ugh! You haven't even held a gun!!

Have fun wasting money on a meme worthless round, retard.

>>630143

>hurr I can't read

I thought you people were supposed to have invented western civilization or some shit. Why can't you read?

>>630103

5.56 M995 AP penetrates more than M61 7.62 AP. BR fags BTFO

>>630127

His laughter was probably implying that -on real world scenarios- the "AP" label on 5.56 is almost like an oxymoron. A more extreme example would AP .22 short.

I don't fully agree, an AP 5.56 will penetrate some armor more reliably, it could be useful in some scenarios (ie: SBR on urban condition where your targets might have different armor levels).

>>630931

>>>/cuckchan/. You know why.

>>628997

The permanent wound cavity is more important.

>>631034

wow it's really sad that he doesn't have a folder of stupid fucking reaction faces

sage because this is all offtopic please get back to the thread

>>630977

>2014

You have to go back

>>630056

Or really any kind of round that can deal any kind of damage out to 1000m. It's a must have for asymmetric warfare, because the enemy always pushes the asymmetry.

If all your troops guns are good to 500m, the enemy will simply sell all his assault rifles and buy machine guns that can hurt you from 1000m. Then he gets on faster or more agile transport like a motorcycle, and engages you from mountain goat paths. If you rush him, he has 500m safety zone in which to decide to break off the engagement. As long as he stays in that sweet spot he can kite you and there's fuck-all you can do because you failed to equip your troops to deal with the threat.

The only counter the average US fireteam has is to dig in, get thoroughly pinned down, and then hope a the Humvee with the M2 arrives before the enemys shitty mortar and rocket artillery lands in the wrong place.

Although its true the Greeks are more concerned with piercing at least some armor. There's a reason Greeks adopted the battle rifle as a standard rifle everywhere except the mainland. This is to slow the progress of any invasion force by shooting amphibious vehicles and landing craft approaching one of thousands of Greek islands with amphibious craft. They can engage boats to 1000m and will penetrate most steel plate or hulls at 600m. The fact that sea is flat means engagement ranges stretch out into infinity, giving every troop a .50 cal sniper might even make sense.

>>631062

Tbf 7chan was a festering marxists shithole but it's existence and censorship about it made me not trust moot.

>>631119

How many troops did NATO lose to such tactics in Afghanistan? Absolute numbers and percentage of total casualties?

>>632023

I think it's about a 1/3rd with rough calculations based on numbers I'm vaguely recalling.

Taliban don't have a whole series of weapons, delivery systems, strategies, tactics and techniques to pick from - they have two or three. Find the troops killed by bombing (either suicide or IEDs) and subtract it from the total (~10,000) dead, you'll get the troops killed by this >>631119 tactic.

Almost ALL of their effective gunfighting is that tactic, the only other gunfights they do are actual terror raids on civilians and desperation zerg rushes by fanatics, but those aren't effective.

Although "NATO dead" is kind of a weird measure because a soldier shot in the head with an incendiary round can be shipped to a first class trauma center in Germany within a couple of hours and easily survive. Plus a bunch of things hide real DIA stats, by pigeon holing the term "action" and actually excluding some patrols or soldiers caught off duty as "died in ACTION", not to mention the guy who gets shipped to Germany and dies didn't really die on the front lines now did he? And also excluding a lot of support personnel, allied personnel and mercenaries from DIA stats. It's basically statistics turned to propaganda.

>>632023

>>632044

The Taliban stopped bothering engaging US forces in protracted gun battles within 300 yards/meters. They realized it was an exercise in futility and stupidity because at the range, the 5.56 is more than good enough for American drills to crush them and lock them down.

So Dshk's and PKMs, alongside RPGs and Recoilless Rifles are the primary attack vectors that aren't IEDs. You should see a pattern, its weapons that can deliver lethal force at around a kilometer or greater, excepting the RPG rounds which autodetonate at certain distances. So against American forces, what has been happening is short, intense engagements with light artillery alongside burst of machine gun fire for the suppressing and disrupting effect.

After 10 minutes or less, the Taliban breaks. And during these engagements, the Taliban have gotten very good at trading for favorable casualty ratios. If it wasnt for the ease of Medivac, they'd come out ahead more than not.

Or used to, anyway. Since we have left, it doesn't happen as much.

>>632117

>Or used to, anyway. Since we have left, it doesn't happen as much.

Now they're just invading large towns and regional cities.

>>632023

>>632044

The true question is, dollar-by-dollar who's winning? It's more than expected that a warmachine of the scale and technological level of NATO, with its completely pussified policies regarding human loss, to have much less human casualties than sandy goatfuckers in cave but how much does a human casualty costs NATO in monetary value when there are thousands if not millions of dollars on the soldier's back for his training, equipment and even air-support? If NATO was blindly sending elementary-trained and rudimentary equipped conscripts to the grinder without air-surveillance, Abraams tanks, attack helicopters and A-10s slapping their ass how much more cost effective would that be?

>>632134

There's also the fact that the army gets "training" that is hard to get sitting on your ass at home and other consequences. Calculating the benefits/costs gets so much harder with every added year into the future that anything other than short term is practically impossible.

>>632044

>I think it's about a 1/3rd with rough calculations based on numbers I'm vaguely recalling.

Citation needed.

Based on numbers I'm vaguely recalling NATO lost only 1 soldier to such tactic :^)