Lets talk about the SAW competition!

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Lets talk about the SAW competition! Strelok 08/26/18 (Sun) 22:44:40 1d8fe3 No.604309

In 1970s America the weapons that served well in Korea were suddenly believed obsolete because of the Vietnam war loss. As a result of this what did we do wrong panic, one thing that was thought is that the 5.56 M16 and the 7.62 M60 did not complement each other well, and that it was too logistically flawed to have two different cartridges at squad level. This was wrong, but not the topic of this thread.

In comes the SAW (squad automatic weapon) competition! This was a solely American competition in the 70s to produce a unitary cartridge that would replace both the 5.56 and the 7.62 with a single cartridge. After a grueling testing process, the bullet agreed on was the 6x45mm, which was slightly higher in energy than 5.56 at 2kJ instead of 1.8kJ, but had a much higher momentum which let it fly longer and be effective at similar ranges to a 7.62.

Pic 1 - Brunswick (leeeaaffff)

Pic 2 - Ford Aerospace XM234

Pic 3 - Ford Aerospace XM248

Pic 4 - Rodman labs

Pic 5 - Maremont

There were others, but those are the main.

More overview:

http://weaponsman.com/?p=11476

http://weaponsman.com/?p=11494

Strelok 08/26/18 (Sun) 22:51:26 ce4deb No.604310

File: 4681bd70ebbdaf9⋯.png (222.25 KB, 1011x1049, 1011:1049, 4681bd70ebbdaf9fd5201009dd….png)

>>604309

>weaponsman

RIP in piece you magnificent son of a bitch

Strelok 08/26/18 (Sun) 22:51:34 c4eafb No.604311

>>604309

>the bullet agreed on was the 6x45mm

I am actually more interested in this. Why did they not adopt it?

Strelok 08/26/18 (Sun) 22:58:09 1d8fe3 No.604314

File: 44afa734101783e⋯.jpg (21.13 KB, 182x268, 91:134, MV5BMTU1MTYwNjE5OF5BMl5Ban….jpg)

>>604311

5.56 M855 promised to do the same thing for less weight and money. Of course it lied, but at the time anything looked possible, even a revolver that held 120 bullets.

6x45 was essentially a slightly weaker 6.5mm grendel, which is literally what we're looking at now as the best thing ever.

Strelok 08/26/18 (Sun) 23:12:01 c4eafb No.604315

>>604314

>We got a special round goyim that does everything we claim but with no evidence please be a good goy and buy!

Figures.

I wonder how many of the 6mm intermediates they will ignore before settling on .280? :^)

I probably also need to webm that scene from that movie were the man runs screaming past with a flare in his ass

Strelok 08/26/18 (Sun) 23:24:19 1d8fe3 No.604317

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>604315

Strelok 08/26/18 (Sun) 23:45:40 8c044c No.604321

>>604315

>>604317

EM-2 and .280 should've not been shafted just to appease the mutts.

Strelok 08/27/18 (Mon) 01:00:02 cdfa35 No.604352

>>604321

Come back when it could shoot not 20MOA.

Strelok 08/27/18 (Mon) 01:27:52 d50eaa No.604365

>>604352

>Come back when it could shoot not 20MOA.

So, we'll see you back in 1951?

Strelok 08/27/18 (Mon) 01:43:35 ce4deb No.604370

>>604317

>that vid

>beaver teeth

I didn't last 1 min into the vid

Strelok 08/27/18 (Mon) 02:04:59 75dfba No.604385

File: a936917c31b80dd⋯.jpg (49.04 KB, 700x381, 700:381, rpd.jpg)

File: 934a51d2254ba89⋯.jpg (599.81 KB, 1600x1063, 1600:1063, rpk-74m.jpg)

>>604321

>.280 british

>making any type of sense

Its a 7mm 30-30 with a spitzer bullet. It doesn't have the range of a .308 and is too heavy & bulky to be used as an intermediate cartridge. We should've gone with .270 Winchester the 7mm-08 you bongs purposed when we rejected the .280.

Back to the topic at hand, is there any advantage to belt fed over magazine fed for a saw? You could just use the magazine change as a pause in a burst anyway. And with the proliferation of reliable 50-60 round stick magazines. Going belt fed just adds weight and cost and someone may want to have a magazine feed option shoehorned in anyway.

Strelok 08/27/18 (Mon) 02:25:40 159d0d No.604394

>>604385

>It doesn't have the range of a .308

Because it's an intermediate round

>too heavy & bulky to be used as an intermediate cartridge

Not really, only the meme .280/30 round that came later, and even then, that still only had the same rim diameter as 8mm Kurz.

Strelok 08/27/18 (Mon) 02:34:17 1989d7 No.604397

>>604385

>is there any advantage to belt fed over magazine fed for a saw

no

Instead of 30-60 rounds on tap you have between 100 to "how ever many belts you want to link together".

>You could just use the magazine change as a pause in a burst anyway.

And have to 1. be completely useless while you reload every 30 seconds and 2. reacquire your target each time

>Going belt fed just adds weight and cost and someone may want to have a magazine feed option shoehorned in anyway.

Like the M249s mag fed option, which from what I've heard works as well as tits on a fly.

Strelok 08/27/18 (Mon) 04:50:49 1e847d No.604420

>>604365

This, the EM2 was much more accurate than that. It could even manage 14 MOA according to the official test documentation. It was also going to be cheap to manufacture as it was impossible to mass produce and therefore cost nothing.

Strelok 08/27/18 (Mon) 05:41:47 bdbac0 No.604433

>>604385

Interdynamics claim the MKR could accept a 200 round magazine:

>>602114

>>604397

>2. reacquire your target each time

Not having to do that is part of what made Bren gun teams so fast.

Strelok 08/27/18 (Mon) 06:12:15 d8477c No.604436

>>604385

>is there any advantage to belt fed over magazine fed for a saw

Defensive use, while you are limited to 50 - 100 round belts to keep it light while advancing when in a static defensive position it's common to have 400 or even 600 rounds linked and ready to rock.

The advantage this offers is if you have multiple targets popping up all over your fire sector and can suppress them all long enough for your assistant to prep plenty of ammo and for arty / air to be called.

The worst thing that can possibly happen to an assault is it gets stopped before it gets started and having a fuckton of SAW trigger time off the bat helps make that happen.

Mark my words if the US ditches belt feed SAWs they will be back within 5 years of combat use.

Strelok 08/27/18 (Mon) 09:49:17 1c81de No.604475

>>604394

>still only had the same rim diameter as 8mm Kurz.

That's still a wide ass fucking rim for an intermediate round.

Strelok 09/01/18 (Sat) 21:38:48 b650a7 No.605571

Why not literally just adopt 7.92x33?

Strelok 09/01/18 (Sat) 22:05:58 ef1c91 No.605576

>>604385

>You could just use the magazine change as a pause in a burst anyway.

You should maybe stop thinking combat is like your videogames.

Strelok 10/11/18 (Thu) 03:31:03 b996f2 No.615403

>>604309

5.56 and 7.62 nato were and are both shit.

Strelok 10/11/18 (Thu) 03:33:42 b996f2 No.615405

>>604314

Yeah. But the Butthurt Brigade of the US Military was terrified of admitting defeat, terrified of admitting how shit McArthur and his Vietnam era successors were.

Terrified of the vague possibility of Congress doing what it should have done years ago and pushing their shit in.

Strelok 10/11/18 (Thu) 03:58:25 b996f2 No.615409

>>604397

The Koreans made those neat drums which have been perfected and only need minor readjustment regarding ammo size.

Strelok 10/11/18 (Thu) 11:59:59 6b30af No.615449

>>604352

Manufacturing standards improve MOA way more than cartridge or firearm design.

MOA is all about repeatability and regularity. If I fire in this direction, how many of my bullets will fall inside a certain circle? Regularity of the projectiles landing zones has almost EVERYTHING to do with regularity in how many propellant grains the production line pours into each casing, or regularity in how much each projectile weighs, or regularity in the rifling or barrel shape of the firearm…..

REGULARITY

With good enough regularity you could make a shotgun into a <1MOA at 1000 yards. You would literally have to arc it and fire a 300gr rifled slug like a howitzer, but given REGULAR enough casting process for the slugs, regular enough propellant in shells, and regular manufacturing of the smoothbore itself, you could get the projectiles to hit the same circle again, and again, and again, and again….

REGULARITY

Strelok 10/11/18 (Thu) 12:26:55 f0484b No.615454

>>615449

Unless the government punishes severely ammo manufacturers who fail to deliver good results, shitty ammo quality will continue to be a thing and money will continue to be wasted on "super accurate rifles" with unnecessary expensive barrels.

Strelok 11/26/18 (Mon) 00:25:01 2c8888 No.627932

My favourite gun in MW1

Strelok 11/26/18 (Mon) 00:42:05 66800b No.627934

>>627932

Reported.

Strelok 11/26/18 (Mon) 03:20:10 ea8c19 No.627969

>>615409

Got a link for that? Would make a simplified SAW much easier.

For a aggressive manner it would be excellent, I will note that belt feds are superior for defensive and mounted situations. Mags are just very convenient and keep the jingle down.

Strelok 11/26/18 (Mon) 05:07:35 824cca No.628006

>>604309

>Soviets begin to phase out intermediate cartridge SAW

>Americans decide it's finally a time to adopt one

History of American machine guns is comedy gold, I'm telling you.

Strelok 11/26/18 (Mon) 16:35:25 5a1cc6 No.628137

>>628006

>>Soviets begin to phase out intermediate cartridge SAW

It happened in teh 2010 actually. And now Russian develops intermediate cartridge SAW again (RPK-16).