Why Is Nobody Using Recoil Counterbalance Guns?

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File: ada5a9c0eb34a0e⋯.jpg (135.59 KB, 1666x708, 833:354, ak107.jpg)

File: e9915224acc41d9⋯.jpg (131.29 KB, 1533x961, 1533:961, pepe767878978899898988080.jpg)

Why Is Nobody Using Recoil Counterbalance Guns? Strelok 01/21/18 (Sun) 08:52:05 2977bb No.544598

>muh complexity

Fucking where? I don't see it. The basic mechanism hardly seems complicated beyond reason. Why is it only the ruskies and gooks who seem to be experimenting with the concept?

Strelok 01/21/18 (Sun) 09:04:26 209e80 No.544599

Because the Russians have a millions of AK-74s and probably even more AK-74Ms, and replacing every single rifle in service takes a long ass time. For them to stop saying "rifle is fine" the AK-12 needs to bring quite a lot more to the table than just a counterbalance, as 5.45 already has very little recoil as it is.

Strelok 01/21/18 (Sun) 09:15:09 6a709e No.544600

Could you get it to work with a Farquhar Hill style piston mechanism? It seems like it would lend itself quite well but I might be misunderstanding something here. I want Magyar-anon ITT.

Strelok 01/21/18 (Sun) 10:50:23 7d9fbd No.544603

File: b63b88586357f50⋯.png (194.63 KB, 3408x2320, 213:145, Farquhar-Hill mechanism.png)

>>544600

I was thinking about it, and my answer so far seems to be: why bother? The Farquhar-Hill seems to be a bit overcomplicated, but after reading the patent I think I have a grasp of the system:

>gas piston pushes back the plug

>the plug pushes back the main spring that is forced against a latch

>the plug at the end of it's travel forces down the latch

>therefore the latch releases the main spring

>at this time the gas piston's own spring pushes it back to the starting position

>spring pushed back the op rod

>op rod pushes back the bolt

>a secondary spring connected to the op rod pushes back the whole thing and somehow resets everything in the gas piston just the right way for the new cycle to begin

As you can see it doesn't "bypass" the recoil, merely times it differently. Therefore adding a counter-balance seems to be a bit futile in my opinion, but you could do it. Combined with a floating chamber system, I think even without any counter-balancing it would make a weapon with a pretty mild felt recoil. And you wouldn't need different gas settings to fire hotter ammo, or use a suppressor, or fire rifle grenades.

Now, what you could do with balanced recoil is to take the St Etienne Mle 1907 with its forward moving gas piston and replace the complicated toothed gear and moving bolt with an arm, like in general Liu's rifle. Now imagine an AR-18 system where the gas piston and op rod are moving forward, and a pivoting arm forces the bolt carrier backwards. Of course in this system the forward moving gas piston and op rod would be weighted to act as the counter-balance. My only problem with this system is that I have a hard imagining how would you make it easy to disassemble the rifle on the field.

The two weapons in question:

https://hooktube.com/watch?v=ofZnarVq8pw

https://hooktube.com/watch?v=ML2V2FdWP-A

Strelok 01/21/18 (Sun) 11:08:20 c2bd0c No.544604

>>544598

It's cheaper to not make it?

Strelok 01/21/18 (Sun) 12:53:48 f7aa66 No.544609

>>544603

The AK 107 style basically works by

>bang

>gas forces bolt carrier back

>at same time, via gas & some other simple connection, a mass equal to the bolt is pushed forward

Thus the only recoil impulse ought to be only the physical minimum of the bullet leaving the barrel, probably like that of a bolt action rifle. The vickers video shows how controllable it is even is full auto spray.

Strelok 01/21/18 (Sun) 13:04:13 cd5948 No.544610

>>544599

I don't believe the AK-12 has a counterbalance system, only the AK-107. However, the production variants of the AK-12 did meet the performance requirements of the Russian military.

Strelok 01/21/18 (Sun) 13:19:50 2977bb No.544612

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

Strelok 01/21/18 (Sun) 13:36:55 ed29a7 No.544613

>>544598

>Why is it only the ruskies and gooks who seem to be experimenting with the concept?

Gooks who? Talking about Russian. Only Russians care about automatic from assault rifle. Other countries have semiautomatic fire doctrine. BTW soviet works demonstrated that improvements from balanced recoil not even close to numbers that are needed. Considering negatives of balanced action: extra weight, 3000-4000 rounds gear part life, charging pull weight reaching 80+ pounds (several hours after fire if gun is not cleaned) it is not worth it.

Strelok 01/21/18 (Sun) 13:48:02 ed29a7 No.544614

File: 690d934768d9067⋯.jpg (185.31 KB, 900x1359, 100:151, 1351345134.jpg)

>>544599

>as 5.45 already has very little recoil as it is.

Fun fact: automatic fire groups size of AK-74 from prone unsupported position and standing positions are 3-4 times larger than needed according to the theory of automatic fire. Of course no one in the world except couple Russians gun engineers can comprehend this fact because other countries banned automatic fire and their militaries don't even have theory of it so they are in the position of medival people trying to build aircraft without inventing Newton laws first.

Strelok 01/21/18 (Sun) 19:19:24 72ca21 No.544631

File: 8459240b7365f3c⋯.gif (886.43 KB, 294x233, 294:233, hansolosmirk.gif)

>>544609

>probably like that of a bolt action rifle

Strelok 01/21/18 (Sun) 19:19:24 72ca21 No.544632

File: 8459240b7365f3c⋯.gif (886.43 KB, 294x233, 294:233, hansolosmirk.gif)

>>544609

>probably like that of a bolt action rifle

Strelok 01/21/18 (Sun) 20:30:33 a48461 No.544636

>>544603

A few more thoughts: so the Farquhar-Hill would be good because it can time the movement of the bolt so that it only starts moving after the bullet left the barrel. Now, in a floating chamber system it's not even the bolt that moves, but the chamber. Instead of a big chunk of steel moving in line with the direction of the recoil for the length of the cartridge; it's a smaller chunk of steel moving downward for the diameter of the cartridge. Therefore this smaller force would be parallel to the recoil, and it would be only felt after the bullet left the barrel. So you could say the felt recoil is indeed comparable to a bolt action rifle with this system, expect that most bolt action rifles don't have any muzzle devices to begin with, and the stock isn't in line with the recoil either.

>>544609

I'm well aware of that.

>>544614

Is the doctrine based on the idea of spraying a few bullets on the target to hopefully hit it?