24141f No.527386
Hey /k/, if 9mm is so bad then why does every law enforcement agency and military unit prefer it over .45?
e157c0 No.527388
3454ee No.527390
>>527386
Capacity and mass production numbers.
basically jewery
0e2bab No.527391
>>527386
>every law enforcement agency and military
so far its mostly feds, many police still use the .40.
Why?
cheaper
easier to shoot
weaker
151775 No.527394
It's the cheapest round that will:
1. fit in an automatic pistol grip thin enough to be gripped by women
2. be lethal after going through a car window.
38d6ef No.527688
48946f No.527719
>>527386
Because all pistol calibers are pretty shit at actually killing people without central nervous system hits, and 17 rounds are better than 7. Also, lighter recoil=faster follow up shots and more rounds on target, increasing probability of a CNS hit or causing enough damage to make the person go into shock.
151775 No.527722
>>527719
That kind of logic would lead to something like pmr-30.
d1b437 No.527723
>>527722
Five-seveN for all of the countries that want to buy a PMR-30 but don't want to risk being laughed at for buying a keltec
2322b2 No.527747
>comparing pistol cartridges
They are all weak as fuck with .41 Remington Magnum being the smallest that actually stands out as having an appreciable advantage.
Arguing about 9mm vs .45 is like arguing about .22 long vs .22 lr.
eb70d1 No.527763
>>527747
Kinda funny how big you gotta get before a handgun actually has some worthwhile muzzle energy to it.
e73bc6 No.527767
9x19 is actually a good manslayer when loaded properly and with a well designed bullet. 45 ACP has less ammo for a similar kinetic energy.
10mm kicks the shit out of both.
>>527719
Which is why both .357 mag and 10mm are decent hunting calibers, right?
There is actually a 25% difference in muzzle energy between the above and 9mm and 45 as per >>527747
If you would shit on .357 magnum for being weak, you are a fag and your shits retarded.
ce9de4 No.527819
holy shit fights about pistol callibers are the most pointless shit ever
ac8af8 No.527828
>>527386
Because the police doesn't actually train with firearms…
In most place 50 to 400 cartridge PER YEAR is what they're given.
So what do you do when you have a vastly poorly trained mob? You lessen the recoil and give them more bullet, that way out of 17 shots of 9mm they MIGHT score a disabling hit, rather than issuing 6 shots of .357 mag you know they will miss with.
bec2dc No.527834
>>527386
The entire reasoning for .45 is
>b-b-b-but muh grampaw!
In reality, it's a novelty caliber. Modern, hollow point 9mm, on the other hand, is the most advanced handgun round ever devised. It's small, and cheap, and leaves holes just as big as the .45. The only reason to use any other round would be to defend yourself from large wild animals, and something like .357 or 10mm would be more practical for that than muh forta faive, which is range-tier.
151775 No.527840
>>527723
5.7 stacks about as well as a 9mm, it's a necked round.
If all you're going for is capacity at expense of everything, a straightwall .22 would do, in a slightly angled grip to account for the rimming.
You can't do much better than 30 round mags unless you want to go full flechette.
.22wmr based round, with rim removed, steel cased, +P+ is probably going to be as good as you get.
0458e0 No.527845
7.62 is the best handgun round.
e268f3 No.527851
>>527846
>AP 7.62 tokarev
>AP
That's redundant as fuck, m8.
ec05fa No.527852
>>527851
Believe it or not that one is designed for suppressed guns if I recall. It is a much heavier bullet than what you'll find anywhere else.
b3884e No.527856
>>527846
Say this kind of round gets on the us market, would it be an nfa item?
875e7f No.527859
>>527845
You should be careful with that.
e268f3 No.527861
>>527856
I knew about that round, m80. I was merely jesting a little bit.
I really wish soviets hadn't killed that round just to cheap-out with simple blowback pistols for everyone. I mean, it was the logical thing to do given the circumnstances, but imagine how cool it would be to have plentiful -modern- double stack 7.62 pistols on the civilian market. How much better it could be with modern bullets and powders. Shit sucks.
>>527852
More like a WMD.
ec05fa No.527862
>>527856
No.
>>527861
Chinks make a P220 clone in 7.62tok and if I recall the picture I posted is something that isn't available at all. With a proper mold you could replicate it without the AP.
ec05fa No.527863
>>527862
Scratch that, now that I think of it 7.62 tok isn't goofy like x54r and x39. You probably could just use standard .308 projectiles for a subsonic load.
afb7f0 No.527867
.40 is the best of the sub magnums.
Controllable
Fast
Big bullet
Better penetration than 9mm
Almost as cheap as 9mm
Stay mad
151775 No.527879
>>527846
That's looks like a straight up AK round in a pistol case.
03e5d7 No.527882
the .45 acp is loaded STILL to the original 1911 loading. the original 9mm loading was an 124 gr bullet at ~1050 ftps. we now see it going ~1300 NATO spec. but still the .45 is loaded at century old velocities and still kills.
fcd390 No.527892
>>527767
>muh 10milimemeter
>>527834
>this low intellect meme again
151775 No.527902
>>527892
Thanks for your contribution. What do you think of the 9mm winchester?
Same packing as 9mm.
Outperforms .45acp
Comes VERY close to having the same energy as 10mm.
355add No.527904
>>527863
We need:
>100~grain Spitzer .308 bullet
>Someone to calculate the optimal powders charge
>A B&T VP9-like pistol
And presto, you can drill holes into people's heads with ease.
ac8af8 No.527906
>>527902
>What do you think of the 9mm winchester?
That (((Winchester))) shouldn't put their name on shit they didn't designed.
>in b4 but… but that's totally not true.
Yeah that's why they started making some EXACTLY 90 years after the patent was deposited (50 years patent + 40 years extension until it's in public domain), then they just made it slightly slightly different to be sure they wouldn't get their asses sued.
b22a36 No.527908
>>527906
>9mm (((Steyr)))
>not a copy of 9mm Bergmann
d006ce No.527909
>>527892
>Fedcuck bragging about how he watches Reddit and Memey
151775 No.527917
>>527906
>>527908
You're forgetting largo.
There are half a dozen 9x23mm cartridges with slight variations in dimensions, projectiles, case wall thicknesses. It's like 9x21, the Russians have one, the Americans, the Jews, the Chinks.
Everyone is trying to make something that stacks like 9x19 but reaches 1000J out of a SMG barrel.
3af56a No.527919
>>527902
Extensions of existing case designs have already proven themselves worthy, especially given stronger guns- .38 special 44 special and .45 colt to name a few. I don't see why a gun specifically designed for the high pressure potential of 9x23mm is impossible, let alone a bad idea to carry.
0e2bab No.527920
>>527882
124 gr is not going 1300 fps in normal loads, it is still under 1200 fps, between 1100 and 1200.
ac8af8 No.527922
>>527917
>You're forgetting largo.
No he isn't.
>>527917
>There are half a dozen 9x23mm cartridges
No there isn't.
The 9mm Bergmann (inappropriately called "largo", because it mostly saw service in Spanish weapons) is different from the 9mm Steyr.
The 9mm Bergmann is a thinner .45 ACP.
The 9mm Steyr is a straight up longer 9mm Luger.
You can perfectly differentiate them without having to bring out the vernier caliper and the designs specifications.
0e2bab No.527927
>>527902
Just use the .40 then
>>527834
>Modern
Hollow points haven't changed in decades, this is a FBI meme. Their agents are more cucked and liberal than usual, and they're cheap assholes, so they meme about the 9mm haven't good "modern bullet tech." The fucking bullets haven't changed, the most change is tweaking a jacket or slightly widening the HP like with federal hat ammo, and even then all that good "modern" shit applies just as much to the .40, 10mm, .357 and .45.
9mm is just a weaker round, and it's not a negligible difference, get the fuck over it.
151775 No.527957
>>527922
>No he isn't.
I don't see it mentioned, so he is.
>No there isn't.
What do you call the .357 SIG? Or .38 super or .38 ACP? Companies like starline even make different brass for 9x23mm, for higher pressures, and Russia is making their own for MP443.
>>527927
.40 doesn't stack as well, and it's weaker than .45.
The 9x23mm is more powerful than .40 or .45, and it stacks better.
0e2bab No.527987
>>527957
>it's weaker than .45
False. Only way 9mm or .45 can even match .40 is to go +P.
>doesn't stack well
??
>9x23mm is more powerful
it's basically a +P .38 Super, nice looking cartridge, I haven't shot either.
For me it comes down to money and availability. What cartridge gives the best performance for the buck? The .40, easily.
8b03ea No.528029
151775 No.528045
e379d7 No.528056
>>528045
I hate to come in to bat for .40sw, but if you are going to act uppity, try not to get schooled.
Both are federal HST rounds. Can you tell which is which?
151775 No.528060
>>528056
Already posted evidence that contradicts, don't feel like doing it again.
4ab120 No.528069
>>527688
You're a big guy?
0e2bab No.528159
>>528045
there is no such thing as .40 +P, you absolute retard. .40 doesn't have +P capability because it's normal pressure is the highest possible.
151775 No.528164
>>528159
Exactly so how is it a fair comparison to .45acp which isn't?
Especially since .45 +P loads are available from the same manufacturer as pointed out here >>528045
Don't be a disingenuous twat comparing oranges to squid.
27d36b No.528183
The answer is very simple.
.45 is better for self defense because it's slower and has a larger area of impact. It's more stunning, more lethal. That makes it the preferred handgun for civilians.
However, unlike amateur criminals like home breakers and thieves, terrorists and professional soldiers wear bullet proof vests.
Enter 9mm. It has a smaller area of impact and is significantly faster. Perfect for penetrating bullet proof vests
I'm honestly disappointed with /k/, because so far, this hasn't been mentioned in this whole thread, while non-sense like magazine size and a difference of 10 cents in price has.
0458e0 No.528186
>>528183
>.45 is better for self defense because it's slower and has a larger area of impact. It's more stunning, more lethal.
>Enter 9mm. It has a smaller area of impact and is significantly faster. Perfect for penetrating bullet proof vests
Why not just do what the Russians did and make a 12.7x55mm round for Revolvers then?
151775 No.528196
>>528186
>pic
>mikhail! do you expect me to talk?
>i expect you to die mr bond
0e2bab No.528201
>>528164
>waaaaahhhh it isn't fair
you're the one who wanted to compare .45 to .40. By saying that you have to go +p just to equal the .40, you're admitting that you lose.
Enjoy paying more money for absolutely no reason.
151775 No.528203
>>528201
The .40 is default overloaded, and you have to compare it to underloaded .45 to have a CHANCE of being competitive. This isn't an admission of failure?
>Enjoy paying more money for absolutely no reason.
I don't use .45 american circumcised penis or .40 small and weak. Enjoy pleasuring men with your gentle, feminine hands.
0e2bab No.528205
>>528183
>perfect for penetrating bullet proof vests
you're talking out your ass
there's vests designed or both normal and +P 9mm.
what 9mm and .40 are good for is penetrating intermediate barriers: doors, walls, heavy clothing, furniture. .45 however sucks at penetrating intermediate barriers because it has such a large surface area AND it is slow.
0e2bab No.528207
>>528203
>moving the goalposts for the second time
you lose
>.45 is underloaded
it is the same fucking pressure that's been used for over a century
btw, if you consider .40 to be "over-loaded," doesn't that mean YOU have the bitch hands and bitch wrists?
and if .45 were "underloaded," wouldn't loading it to .40 pressures make it "overloaded?"
DUMBASS
151775 No.528213
>>528207
>moves goalposts so they're surrounding him and the ball and its impossible to miss
>"wait a second thats a bit unrealistic, heres the same exact manufacturer comparing t-"
>DONT MOVE GOALPOSTS!!!11
>"i just want to compare apples to apples"
>OMG MOVING GOALPOSTS AGAIN!!!
lol, ok buddy, .40sw is far more powerful than .45acp. I was totally in the wrong.
Now fuck off, you lost this argument.
5b8b99 No.528253
>>528213
Except comparing STANDARD PRESSURES TO STANDARD PRESSURES is exactly what we are doing, you silly bastard. Pic related
1c47a0 No.528636
be8f8d No.528941
>>528253
Look at the pot calling the kettle black, Brucey.
a01a79 No.528971
I can't believe I share this board with people that believe joules="magical damage output number". Energy at muzzle and killing capability don't scale linearly, there is much more to terminal ballistics than energy of the round and/or calibre and speed.
I strongly suggest people to check medical studies and forensic analysis. When it comes to stopping people, the difference between the three main rounds (9, .40 and .45) per bullet fired is negligable.
b1c0b0 No.529033
Pistol caliber is utterly irrelevant. If I had to pick a winner 9mm or 5.7 for capacity reasons…but 5.7 losses due to it's fat grip is a bit too big for smaller people.
Btw cops recommend 40 ONLY because the training ammunition more closely resembles the issued carry ammo in recoil and velocity whereas there's a bigger difference with cheap 9mm compared to duty rounds.
1d3826 No.529042
>>528971
>Le negligible meme
You're wrong.
>>529033
>This reason I pulled out my ass is totally true guiz
Ever heard of +p, dumbass?
If you think pistol difference is negligible, then +p is really negligible, yet you say there's a massive difference
You are a dumbass talking out of your ass.
4ea384 No.529090
>>529042
Or I could just have a cop tell you the same exact thing you knuckle dragging fucktard.
https://youtu.be/nXPyYU812Wo
0e2bab No.529092
>>529090
>Another dumbshit that owns all the calibers
>"Hurr Durr they're the same lol negligible"
>Yet he owns them all and dipshits with a different caliber for every "role"
>"Hurr Durr it is just about personal preference lol"
Into the trash it goes
There are major differences between the rounds, and even between +p and normal pressures.
Get fucked
4ea384 No.529093
>>528971
Only voice of reason here. Yeah it's all pretty negligible difference wise.
Only way to for sure stop someone is a hot to heart, lungs, CNS or brain. And even then that doesn't garantee an immediate stop unless it's the brain.
Look measuring muzzle velocity, hydrostatic shock, ect are all inexact at best measuring the exact effect on any given person is also highly variable.
The only fact that matters is does the round work and can you hit the bastard with it? As I said before if you want a technical winner it's 9mm for capacity cost and firearm selection… but I usually just carry a 9x18 myself because it doesn't fucking matter enough to care.
Caliber is less important than selecting a good reliable gun. That's what you should focus on.
And anyone who ever uses the phrase 'one shot stop' is a waste of human tissue. You have more than one bullet feel free to shoot the fucker as many times as it takes.
4ea384 No.529095
>>529092
>Hurr Durr I can green text and bitch there for I win lol.
Grow up kid.
6a4bef No.529103
>>529093
>.357 and up are negligible
Imma call your shit retarded and gay.
14fb31 No.529106
>>529095
>there for
learn English, juan
f1e092 No.529306
I'm surprised that there's still a debate about this going on in *current year* - I encourage anyone who hasn't to just search 9mm vs 45acp on youtube and just watch the first, I don't know, 3-5 videos on the subject, there's a ton of videos doing ballistic analysis between the two and guys - they aren't that different with regard to penetrating power and damage to meaty targets.
Personally I give 9mm the edge because of lower recoil and larger base capacity, but you can do serious damage to someone through glass, drywall, wood, fabric, whatever with either.
Here, watch these silly guys shoot a series of steel plates with 9mm and 45acp, both FMJ rounds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzCiqZJsT6k
That shit isn't exactly scientific, but you're probably never going to be shooting at someone behind 10 steel plates, but if you ever were, either 9mm or 45acp will hit what you shot at.
To answer the OP though, 9mm is probably just cheaper to acquire at the bulk rate that a PD or military is buying them - they probably see millions more rounds of 9mm for the same price as significantly less .45 as the primary factor. Accountants are powerful in this realm. I don't know if ballistics entered into those decisions at all, or what influence the manufacturers are able to exert within the scope of those decisions, but I would guess that cost per round was one of the primary factors in these decisions.
151775 No.529312
>>529306
.45 is not going to die anytime soon as its better suppressed. Even when 9mm rules all, .45acp will have a niche.
151775 No.529313
5.45x18mm stacks 24 rounds in a standard grip, with room to spare. Goes through 50 layers of kevlar.
1st pic is it compared to 9mm, it's so compact its going to blow your mind just via the picture.
.223 timbs and 7.63 manlicher is also good, if you're looking for capacity.
a01a79 No.529360
>>529312
9mm is easier to suppress than .45 ACP. Of course subsonic .45 is more plentiful (only P+ can be supersonic), but -at least in the US- subsonic 9mm can be found at a competitive price (similar to regular .45). Probably not the best stuff, but neither is your regular .45 ACP on a similar price range.
6a4bef No.529390
>>529312
Except you can load 10mm with heavy for caliber bullets and get subsonic with more ammo.
151775 No.529425
>>529360
>9mm is easier to suppress
Why do you think this?
5b535a No.529427
So the female officers can spray and pray a little bit more accurately. And since you can fit more of them in a mag, they're more likely to actually hit something. Hopefully not a civilian.
9b04a0 No.529501
>>529425
I don't think, it is a matter of physics. As long as we are picking between subsonic cartridges: The smaller the round, the "easier" (less suppressor overall size and bafles) it is to suppress it. This was also something a B&T representative stated not that long ago after being asked why they didn't make more suppressors/suppressed guns on .45 ACP. If you really care about it, I can look around for the source.
In theory, a cartridge with the right shoulder angle on the case should be easier to suppress than a straight walled-case one (due to more consistent powder burnt).
2322b2 No.529518
>>529501
Catch is standard 9mm is supersonic making .45 the easier option.
037f35 No.529527
>>529518
I never said otherwise, hell, I even stated that on a previous post. Price is not an issue though, at least in 'merican, here there are no factory subsonic 9mm.
Again, in theory, you want a long round rather than a bigger calibre one. At least for subsonic performance. It's the best way to add mass without making good suppression harder to achieve. A long round is also better in terms of sectional density which helps with penetration.
151775 No.529530
>>529501
OK I see. I wouldn't count putting in a few extra baffles to be harder, or to even register on the easy/hard scale.
Far more difficult is finding a common subsonic 9mm in the ~230 grain range, which is what it's competing with, so I wouldn't have to take apart each individual cartridge, cast the bullets myself, and reload it myself.
>>529390
That's true but the argument is limited to just 9mm and .45. If we expand it enough then both 9mm and .45 are utter garbage used only for their price.
ec05fa No.529540
>>529527
149gr 9x19 is subsonic if I recall.
e268f3 No.529545
>>529530
>OK I see. I wouldn't count putting in a few extra baffles to be harder, or to even register on the easy/hard scale.
Far more difficult is finding a common subsonic 9mm in the ~230 grain range, which is what it's competing with, so I wouldn't have to take apart each individual cartridge, cast the bullets myself, and reload it myself.
A few extra bafles and a bigger suppressor diameter might be the difference between having a wildly gun and one that is simply uncomfortable to carry. The recently released Maxim 9 is one of the smallest packages you can possibly get and it still is a pretty sizeable gun, it would be even bigger (probably longer) If it was chambered on .45 and you wanted to get similar performance (in terms of noise/sound).
As always, it goes down to what you intend to do with the gun, what are your priorities (terminal ballistics, penetration, db output, etc.) and whatnot.
3af56a No.529846
>>529530
>The argument is limited to .45 and 9mm
Then the argument is superfluous if there's a better option than both within a similar framed gun.
0e2bab No.529897
>>529360
fucking .45 is by default subsonic
>>529390
an utter waste of money
d4d43e No.529957
>>529897
>Objectively superior option
>Waste of money
Pic related.
7cf6e6 No.529969
Here is my quality contribution to this thread
151775 No.529998
>>529846
Why do you think people hate these .45 vs 9mm discussions? Both are garbage, one is just cheap for womens hands, the other is for guys who want to dickwave and nostalgia.
In reality 10mm would be a superior option, it would work better in handguns and SMGs for police.