/islam/ - 8ch Masjid

James White debated Zakir Hussain last week in Birmingham about whether or not Jesus pbuh was crucified.

James White's strategy is to drive a wedge between muslims and bart ehrman.

Bible was tempered 300 years after Jesus in Council of Nicea decision. During that time, The concept of trinity was made up so the pagan Romans can accept Christianity. Its was made up because the Roman leader at that time turn to Christian but his people did not, to ease the transition, the Roman three god was assimilated into Christians teachings and modified to fit the population belief, the Nicene Creed.

Before this happen, Christianity already exported into Ethiopia, there exist a Bible that talk about monotheism, if Christians want the truth, use that one.

Even an atheist can debunk trinity better than a Muslim.

>>23287

>White says Muslims aren't allowed to quote textual scholars because they don't believe in prophecy. Guess what, James White the reason debates have parameters is so you can focus on the relevant points of information a scholar brings to the table

He says this in regards to muslim apologists appealing to biblical textual scholars making generalized claims like "thus history can't establish whether Christ resurrected or not because….blablabla *invokes inherently materialist suppositions* blalablabla." James' point is that most of the criticisms of textual scholars are founded on presuppositions that would also undermine the Quran and Islam.

>Bart Ehrman: How come Quran was preserved by Scribes and Bible was Tampered With?

I think James White argues that multiple converging sources of transmission are superior to a single source of transmission

>>26105

>The concept of trinity was made up so the pagan Romans can accept Christianity.

If you want to sell a religion to people definitely don't add the trinity doctrine to it. It's very improbable that it was artificially fabricated, it doesn't invite more believers or make the religion more accessible, it does the opposite.

>>26136

James White says it is gggggreat to have a bunch of fake manuscripts because Christians have a bunch of fake manuscripts.

>>26137

Lol. Stay in your trini thread, trini bitch.

Proselytization removed. If you trinnies want to proselytize, do it in your trinnie thread. - mod

>>26139

>James White says it is gggggreat to have a bunch of fake manuscripts because Christians have a bunch of fake manuscripts.

Not sure what you mean. I think I heard him say some manuscripts have minor transcription errors, and of course there are obvious fake 'apocrypha'…but those don't qualify as christian manuscripts.

>Lol. Stay in your trini thread, trini bitch.

What?

Man I wish the board owner did some mod-coaching sessions.

>>26156

>Not sure what you mean. I think I heard him say some manuscripts have minor transcription errors, and of course there are obvious fake 'apocrypha'…but those don't qualify as christian manuscripts.

Not sure if you are bluffing or just unfamiliar with James White. He is known for his candor in dismissing large chunks of biblical text as "textual variation" ie interpolation. He is wellknown by muslims and christians for dismissing pericope adulterae, johannine comma and other chunks of text as forgeries inserted into manuscripts. That is not a "minor transcription error."

>Man I wish the board owner did some mod-coaching sessions.

I've modded here for years. I don't think your divide and conquer attempts are going to accomplish much. Anyway I am back from Twitter now, Twitter is anti-Sunni / anti-Trump. I support the US-Gulf bloc against Russia and Iran and I'm sick of being double censored as a Trump supporter and a Sunni (GCC supporter).

So I am your political ally since I recognize the sunni-jewish-western christian alliance against shiaism-orthodox obscurantism-atheism. I am just hostile to missionaries. Except for missionaries like James White who I have respect for and Im very familiar with his radioshow and his debates.

I think my old tweets are still up if anyone is interested. I was @Muslims4Trump20, @Sunnis4Trump, @SunniBrah. And I still have @RafidaHotTakes.

>>26156

>Man I wish the board owner did some mod-coaching sessions.

It would be unnecessary. They know that I don't get actively involved in highly charged political threads and I let them take general control of such things. I stay out of it unless I see something illegal or grossly anti-Islam.

Trust me, it's for the best. I'm a deeply religious man and a constant student of Islam, but politically I'm a staunch liberal socialist. I am not here to defend my politics nor suppress the politics of others.

This thread, believe it or not, is about politics. The socio-political differences between Qur'an and the Bible. To me, comparing the two is no different than comparing Qur'an to Harry Potter. We already know Qur'an is the Truth of all things. Comparison is unneeded and an exercise in futility. Ergo, the only reason to bother is to bring socio-politics into it and a touch of misguided history. So, I stay out of it.

If you have a religious question, I'm all over it! If you want to know why the modern Bible is a joke, then I just shake my head and walk away because you should already know the answer to that.

I've seen some stuff by james white. He's still more reasonable than other christian apologists but he relies on their same lies in the end anyway only with slightly better manners. Like for example, he refers to the compilation of the Quran as a "major revision". This is then what he goes on to teach his christian audience.

One thing I noted in a debate of his with Bassam Zawadi, I think it was, on whether or not the Quran was preserved, was that White seemed to fully accept that the Uthmanic mushaf was preserved. Instead his attack was that, well how do we know that that mushaf represented what Mohammed(saw) recited? But this is a bit rich since one can just say how do you know that the NT authors accurately represented Jesus? I mean it leads nowhere. And in fact it would be more plausible that a handful or so disciples(supposedly) conspired on a lie than thousands of sahaba along with their dissenters of khawarij and shia.

At the end of the day we have full isnaads of reciters of the Quran and it being memorized by thousands of companions, as well as manuscripts dating back to the time of the Prophet(saw), whereas christians at best have a text written by one disciple and a few people who never even met Jesus, half a decade after he left earth, that has to be reconstructed by fragments that appear much later. The bible is even less authoritative than hadiths, I don't even compare it with the Quran.

>>26137

I think the trinity came out of christians having to reconcile the exaggerated labels applied to Jesus in some texts with the monotheistic God of judaism. Clearly they struggled with it since it took centuries for the church fathers to finalize what would be their core principal of faith. It really puts things into perspective. Some muslims are concerned with hadiths only appearing in writing in the second century of hijri, meanwhile christians are seemingly fine with their single most important aspect of creed not being established until after four centuries.

>>23287

I'll have to watch the rest of the video later as I only got 8 minutes in and have stuff to do, but not even talking about Ehrman, I just think its amazing how there's physical proof that for 1300 years the Quran has remained perfectly conserved, not changing even as alrashidun caliphate became ummayad became abbasid became ottoman/fatimid became etc. etc. etc. SubhanAllah.

>>26105

Sauce on Ethiopian bible? I remember hearing about it from friends when I was younger but didn't look into it after.

>>26564

James White has to stop claiming the different “textual variations” ie interpolations, forgeries, and various other incongruences of the Bible are a strength or as one of his friends calls it “an embarassment of riches.” He even goes so far at times to suggest the lack of Quranic textual variations is a weakness ! - however as mentioned above, in the Zawadi debate he does admit the Uthmanic codex is unchanged - and as Zawadi said, that is all he set out to prove.

James White has to accept that in the Quran Allah clearly says that it was made to appear as though Jesus was crucified so any unbiased historical accounts James White brings to bear only reinforce the Quran. And the unbiased historical accounts AND the Quran both stop short of a “resurrection.” Without the resurrection, the cross is irrelevant so White’s thinking doesn’t follow. It’d be like me using unbiased sources to prove Prophet Muhammad pbuh existed…. therefore he was a prophet.

>>26161

>liberal socialist

So that’s why you allow the faggotposter to defame this board?

>>26575

All Muslims are welcomed here. Especially the misguided ones. If you shelter yourself away, then you lose the opportunity to teach and to learn. This board is not an echo chamber.

>>26161

In today’s world, Liberalism holds the same place as the Emperor did in Romw. A man is free to practice any religion he pleases, as long as, in the event of any clash, he is subservient to the Liberal State and its progressive ideology. Hillary Clinton, for example, has the hubris to assert that religions need to change their teaching on abortion and homosexuality and the role of women.

Liberalism is incompatible with true religion. Actually, a marker of spiritual progress is the extent to which a person purges himself of liberal assumptions.

>>26579

>Especially the misguided ones.

I guess that's a good reason, but he keeps making threads about himself

>>26591

>opinions

>>26592

>keeps making threads

I see two. Also, it's nice to see some activity around here.

>>26592

There is only one thread about Undyne and it is locked. >>26216

There will be no more threads about Undyne, or any user, permitted. If Undyne makes a thread concerning Islam, that's perfectly fine. If YOU then make that thread about Undyne, then that's your fault for not staying on topic. /islam/ is not your, nor anyone's, personal echo chamber or safe space. If you have a personal issue with a particular user of this board, then you are free to filter/ignore that person or you may leave.

>>26593

>opinions

Liberalism comes from secular "enlightenment humanism", which is not theocentric but anthrocentric. Man is assumed to be the only measure of right and wrong, good and evil, just and unjust. All truth becomes relative, and absolute truths become dubious and unjustifiable. Practical reason becomes man's main guide along with science, no room for revelation, nor intuition, nor what seems to be natural law.

Phenomena lose their teleology and everything is instrumental to man and his whims, or the whims of the democratic mob. The main moral injunction is "do what you will as long as it doesn't interfere with other people doing what they will…" and from here we get hedonism and various expressions of moral relativism. None of which a truly religious person would agree with or "tolerate" to use their silly lingo.

>>26666

The funny thing about that is practical reason is my guide and practical reason brought me to Allah. If you think liberalism is a bad thing, then you've not studied liberalism. Stop eating the /pol/ pill.

>>26674

> If you think liberalism is a bad thing, then you've not studied liberalism.

I know it's a bad thing, I used to be liberal and studied it enough. What do you think liberalism is and why is it of value?

>practical reason lead me to Allah

explain the steps and syllogism.

Because at best "reason" will lead you to some opaque deism or fuzzy pantheism, definitely not a revealed religion with prophets and miracles and angels and divinely preserved transmissions and guarantees.

>>26677

>Because at best "reason" will lead you to some opaque deism or fuzzy pantheism

Apparently you have no clue about reason. Shame, that. You should stop listening to /pol/.