/christianity/ - Christian Theology

>>861

It's not. Change my mind.

>>863

I asked u forst

How can you be a brother of Christ without having the Mother and Father of Christ?

>>866

Mary isn't God's wife

>>866

Overextending the metaphor

>How can you be a sheep if you're not sheared?

>How can you be wheat if nobody beats you?

>>867

So God is a fornicator?

>>869

Lol

God didn't have sex with Mary, married or otherwise

>>870

>>871

>>872

???

>>871

Just posted this on /r/favoritememe LOL

>>871

We don't believe that, nice strawman. And show me one instance in which catholics don't follow the Bible.

>>983

>>869

>>986

The immaculate conception wasn't a case of fornication or even sex, it is a miracle beyond our human comprehension.

>>989

"Immaculate conception" refers to Mary in Catholic theology

One of your Catholic compatriots claimed Jesus was a result of God having sex with Mary. We know this is not RCC doctrine and he's just dumb. No strawman was made.

>>869

No, hes a muthafucka

>>1020

Evangelical protestantism is most resistant to feminism compared to mainline and roman catholics

>>983

>We don't believe that, nice strawman

Did you read the post that was replying to?

>>1020

So you're saying we should worship Mary as a goddess so feminists will like us more? No thank you, pagan

>>861

It's literally no different than the ancient Greeks worshipping Athena or Hera.

Plus, we pray to God and Christ out of faith because you cannot please Them no other way besides through faith. Not by us erecting statues because "we wanna see who we're praying to".

>>1020

>>1030

Mary can be a role model without you praying to her. The Bible is full of men and women whose stories we can learn from, that doesn't mean we should pray to them. Job is a role model for me, but I pray to God, not to Job.

>>861

This board is becoming a Protestant eco-chamber, if you really want to know RCC or Orthodox doctrine regarding Mary or statues I recommend reading our stances on the second commandment (graven images), the Assumption of Mary and why we believe she was born without original sin and lived a life without committing actual sin

Why don’t I just tell you? Because I have things to do, but take care and read our doctrine not some anon posting about feminism, the latter didn’t even exist when the former was established

>>2843

How is this an echo chamber? There are anti-protestants in every thread voicing their opinions and nobody is getting censored.

>>2854

>Becoming

>>2856

fair

>>983

Glad you asked! Here's a whole list :)

https://jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/catholic_heresies-a_list.htm

>>867

But she is Gods mother

>>2860

Prayer for the dead is known very early to the 2nd century. See Acts of Thelca and some catacomb inscriptions for instance.

Veneration of dead saints began with the cult of martyrs and things like Ignatius' of Antioch's concept of the Apostolate. That's possibly 1st century already!

Apocryphal books were cited as Scripture in Clement of Rome, Irenaeus, Origen, Hippolytus…etc. that's way before Trent

The Mass as sacrifice is already a thing in Irenaeus where the bread and wine are offered to God. He literally says this. There's also the real presence and it commemorating martyrs too

>>2860

According to that page wax candles are heretical and oil lamps are pagan. I think that goes a little too far.

>>2893

This argument makes no sense.

>a few people did it very close to the time of Christ and called themselves Christians, therefore it's Christian to follow these traditions of men

You do know that the new testament talks about heresies that were being spread even while Jesus was alive, right?

>>2843

It's a natural development though, as apostolics leave this board of their own will. The catholic echo chamber that is /christian/ is an enforced echo chamber.

>>2915

Israelites always prayed for their dead, because they understood the difference between Sheol and Gehenna… KJV memers often don't.

>>2918

>Israelites always prayed for their dead

Only even hinted at in the apocrypha, which is not scripture

>>2920

>Only even hinted at in the apocrypha, which is not scripture

You do realize it's literally the (((jews))) who removed the Apocrypha right?

>>2920

>Luther (PBUH): *takes out book that doesn't support position*

>owned

The only real justification for this is that certain books of Scripture were only in Greek at the time, and not Hebrew. But, why use Paul's books when they were also written in Greek? Implying that the Deuterocanon is on the same level as, say, the "Gospel" of Thomas is insane. And the KJV contained the Deuterocanon for a long time…

>>2918

There's a difference between praying for the dead and praying to the dead.

>>2922

>>2923

Exactly backwards. The RCC added the apocryphal books as a response to the reformation, the reformers did not take them away.

Origen, Cyril of Jerusalem, Athanasius, and Jerome all rejected them. What do you have to say about that?

Jesus never said anything about worshipping his mother.

With that being said I am NEVER EVER GOING TO INSULT JESUSES MOTHER!

>>2925

Jerome went to the (((jews))) for help in making his Latin translation. You know the Apocrypha is the best parts of the Bible because the jews hate it just like how they hate everything pure and good.

>>2929

Checkem

>>2925

Jerome never authoritatively said that those books should not be included. The books were considered authentic for at least 1200 years (and were declared to be authentic by the Church) before Luther. It's true in the early Church many did not want certain books in the canon, there was debate over it, but this is an issue of Protestants retconning history–because so much time has passed since the early Church, it's easy to claim that it was all corrupt before the reformation, just like atheists will claim Jesus never even existed even though that would have been a preposterous position until recently.

>>2932

>Protestants retconning history

Not true in the slightest. The revision is unanimously from catholics who allege that protestants removed books.

>>2929

boogeyman argument

>>2925

>literal retcon of history

At best only Jerome rejected them. The others you mention literally cite the so called Apocrypha as divinely inspired Scripture. Even Jerome in his late phase does it too

Catholics are awesome people. I love them very much and often have friendship with them, their priest, and nuns all the time. I find most staunch Atheists I meet to be insufferable people.

With that said the worship of Mary originates from the ancient worship of Semiramis and Nimrod. Semiramis was the mother and wife of Nimrod (the world's first antichrist). The Worship of her stemmed originally from Babylon and eventually spread to other parts of the world. The "translation" of her worship got a little adapted with each land it went to. Examples are the goddesses Isis or Rhea.

Eventually with Constantine the Great, he ended up combining the Roman Pantheon with Christian Heroes and Saints. The result was the start of the Vatican and Catholicism, thus why it meant Universal. Statues of Jupiter became Simon Peter, lesser god worship became the worship of saints, and the worship of Semiramis and Nimrod became Mary and baby Jesus.

Is OP correct? Yes. Does that make Catholics evil? NO. Does that mean Catholics are going to hell? I don't think so. They love Jesus Christ, hate abortion, think the anal queens of lgbt are disgusting…let's be honest what's not to like about them? However our Catholic friends do need to know about the origins of where the idolatry comes from.

Jesus Christ is an intimidating figure. Yes He was a kid once. But NO I don't really remember Him primarily as a baby but, as some dominating fearsome all powerful Being with eyes blazing like fire, face glaring like looking into the sun and a sword that can obliterate 200 million badguys. He doesn't sit on Mary's lap. Mary was a great woman but was dependent on Jesus Christ like everyone else is.

>>2925

Meanwhile in reality

Origen:

But he ought to know that those who wish to live according to the teaching of Sacred Scripture understand the saying, 'The knowledge of the unwise is as talk without sense,'[Sirach 21:18] and have learnt 'to be ready always to give an answer to everyone that asketh us a reason for the hope that is in us.’ [1 Pt 3:15] " Origen, Against Celsus, 7:12 (A.D. 248),in ANF, IV:615

A]s is written in the book of Tobit: 'It is good to keep close the secret of a king, but honourable to reveal the works of God,' [Tobit 12:7]–in a way consistent with truth and God's glory, and so as to be to the advantage of the multitude." Origen, Against Celsus, 5:19(A.D. 248),in ANF,IV:551.

But that we may believe on the authority of holy Scripture that such is the case, hear how in the book of Maccabees, where the mother of seven martyrs exhorts her son to endure torture, this truth is confirmed; for she says, ' ask of thee, my son, to look at the heaven and the earth, and at all things which are in them, and beholding these, to know that God made all these things when they did not exist.' [2 Maccabees 7:28]" Origen, Fundamental Principles, 2:2 (A.D. 230),in ANF, IV:270

>>3032

Athanasius

[T]he sacred writers to whom the Son has revealed Him, have given us a certain image from things visible, saying, 'Who is the brightness of His glory, and the Expression of His Person;' [Heb 1:3] and again, 'For with Thee is the well of life, and in Thy light shall we see lights;' [Ps 36:9] and when the Word chides Israel, He says, 'Thou hast forsaken the Fountain of wisdom;' [Baruch 3:12] and this Fountain it is which says, 'They have forsaken Me the Fountain of living waters' [Jer 2:13]" [3] Athanasius the Great: Defense of the Nicene Faith,2 (A.D. 351), in NPNF2, IV:158.

And where the sacred writers say, Who exists before the ages,' and 'By whom He made the ages,’ [Heb 1:2] they thereby as clearly preach the eternal and everlasting being of the Son, even while they are designating God Himself. Thus, if Isaiah says, 'The Everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth;’ [Is 40:28] and Susanna said, 'O Everlasting God;' [Daniel 13:42-Susanna] and Baruch wrote, 'I will cry unto the Everlasting in my days,' and shortly after, 'My hope is in the Everlasting, that He will save you, and joy is come unto me from the Holy One;' [Baruch 4:20,22]" Athanasius the Great: Discourses Against the Arians, 1:4 (A.D. 362), in NPNF2, IV:313

[I]t is written that 'all things were made through the Word,' and 'without Him was not made one thing,’ [John 1:3] and again, 'One Lord Jesus, through whom are all things,’ [1 Cor 8:9] and in Him all things consist,’ [Col 1:17] it is very plain that the Son cannot be a work, but He is the Hand of God and the Wisdom. This knowing, the martyrs in Babylon, Ananias, Azarias, and Misael, arraign the Arian irreligion. For when they say, 'O all ye works of the Lord, bless ye the Lord,', they recount things I heaven, things on earth, and the whole creation, as works; but the Son they name not. For thy say not, ‘Bless, O Word, and praise O Wisdom; to shew that all other things are both praising and are works’; but the Word is not a work nor of those that braise but is praised with the Father and worshipped and confessed as God.’ [Daniel 3:57-Three Youths] Athanasius the Great: Discourses Against the Arians, 2:71 (A.D. 362), in NPNF2, IV:387.

>>3033

Cyril

Hear the Prophet saying, 'This is our God, none other shall be accounted of in comparison with Him. He hath found out every way of knowledge, and given it to Jacob His servant, and to Israel His beloved. Afterwards He[she] was seen on earth, and conversed among men' [Baruch 3:35-37]. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 9:15(A.D. 350),in NPNF2, VII:68

Learn then thine own weakness; learn from this instance the mightiness of God: for He hath numbered the drops of rain [Job 36:27], which have been poured down on all the earth, not only now but in all time. The sun is a work of God, which, great though it be, is but a spot in comparison with the whole heaven; first gaze steadfastly upon the sun, and then curiously scan the Lord of the sun. Seek not the things that are too deep for thee, neither search out the things that are above thy strength: what is commanded thee, think thereupon [Sir. 3:21-22]. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Lecture VI:4, Volume 7, p. 34.

2. The Divine Nature then it is impossible to see with eyes of flesh: but from the works, which are Divine, it is possible to attain to some conception of His power, according to Solomon, who says, "For by the greatness and beauty of the creatures proportionally the Maker of them is seen" (Wis 13:5). He said not that from the creatures the Maker is seen, but added proportionably. For God appears the greater to every man in proportion as he has grasped a larger survey of the creatures: and when his heart is uplifted by that larger survey, he gains withal a greater conception of God. 3. Wouldest thou learn that to comprehend the nature of God is impossible? The Three Children in the furnace of fire, as they hymn the praises of God, say "Blessed art thou that beholdest the depths, and sittest upon the Cherubim" (Song of the Three Children, 32, or in Daniel 3, between verses 23 and 24, there are 68 verses, of which this is verse 32. This is part of the Deuterocanonical portion). Tell me what is the nature of the Cherubim, and then look upon Him who sitteth upon them. And yet Ezekiel the Prophet even made a description of them, as far as was possible, saying that every one has four faces, one of a man, another of a lion, another of an eagle, and another of a calf; and that each one had six wings (Ezek. 1:6-11), and they had eyes on all sides; and that under each one was a wheel of four sides. Nevertheless though the Prophet makes the explanation, we cannot yet understand it even as we read. But if we cannot understand the throne, which he has described, how shall we be able to comprehend Him who sitteth thereon, the Invisible and Ineffable God? To scrutinize then the nature of God is impossible: but it is in our power to send up praises of His glory for His works that are seen. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, NPNF2,Lecture IX:2-3, Volume 7, p. 51.

>>3034

Jerome

And in the proverbs Solomon tells us that as "the north wind driveth away rain, so doth an angry countenance a backbiting tongue.(Prov. 25:23)" It sometimes happens that an arrow when it is aimed at a hard object rebounds upon the bowman, wounding the would-bewounder, and thus, the words are fulfilled, "they were turned aside like a deceitful bow," (Psalm 128:57) and in another passage: "whoso casteth a stone on high casteth it on his own head." (Sir. 27:25) Jerome, To Rusticus, Epistle 125, 19 (A.D. 404), in NPNF2, VI:251

Yet the Holy Spirit in the thirty-ninth(9) psalm, while lamenting that all men walk in a vain show, and that they are subject to sins, speaks thus: "For all that every man walketh in the image."(Psalm 39:6) Also after David's time, in the reign of Solomon his son, we read a somewhat similar reference to the divine likeness. For in the book of Wisdom, which is inscribed with his name, Solomon says: "God created man to be immortal, and made him to be an image of his own eternity."(Wisdom 2:23) And again, about eleven hundred and eleven years afterwards, we read in the New Testament that men have not lost the image of God. For James, an apostle and brother of the Lord, whom I have mentioned above–that we may not be entangled in the snares of Origen–teaches us that man does possess God's image and likeness. For, after a somewhat discursive account of the human tongue, he has gone on to say of it: "It is an unruly evil … therewith bless we God, even the Father and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God."(James 3:8-9) Paul, too, the "chosen vessel,"(Acts 9:15) who in his preaching has fully maintained the doctrine of the gospel, instructs us that man is made in the image and after the likeness of God. "A man," he says, "ought not to wear long hair, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God."(1 Cor. 11:7) He speaks of "the image" simply, but explains the nature of the likeness by the word "glory."

7. Instead of THE THREE PROOFS FROM HOLY SCRIPTURE which you said would satisfy you if I could produce them, BEHOLD I HAVE GIVEN YOU SEVEN"— Jerome, Letter 51, 6, 7, NPNF2, VI:87-8

Does not the SCRIPTURE say: 'Burden not thyself above thy power' [SIRACH 13:2] Jerome, To Eustochium, Epistle 108 (A.D. 404), in NPNF2, VI:207

>>3032

>>3033

>>3034

>>3035

Reference does not necessarily imply a belief in inspiration. What is explicit is their direct statements of opposition to one or all of the apocryphal books affirmed by the RCC at the council of trent.

See here for quotations: https://carm.org/early-church-fathers-canon

>>3031

I didn't link anything, and you never really refuted my point. There were heresies even during the life of Jesus, to say that something is biblically justified because some early heretics did it is false. The Bible never tells us to pray to dead people or anyone other than God.

>>3037

This is why CONTEXT matters and context shows they use the same formulae as the Inspired Scriptures. This is so plain it neednt be explained unless you are so afraid of the truth you rather project

>>3052

Then I apologize. Now I see you didnt post it. Good. Now admit all early christians as heretics. Be consistent

>>3054

Based and Protestant traditionalistpilled!

>>5626

Here's where the whole playlist is,

Dante in Translation with Giuseppe Mazzotta

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLD1450DFDA859F694