/christianity/ - Christian Theology

The Bible tells us that nothing can pluck us from the Lord's hand.

>>5827

no one can take them out of my father's hand is not the same as they can never backslide, fall into sin and become rejected of God

>>5829

It's "believes", not "has once believed".

>>5829

As long as perseverence is required as John indicates, that's not OSAS. Eternal Security? Sure in the sense that God wont let his sheep fall away but this cannot mean OSAS because there is the necessity of preseverence for those Saved, meaning anon who backslides, never possessed the saving faith or Grace that is necessary, only a weak faith or none at all

Secondly, Hebrews actually disproves OSAS as that verse cited by anon is clear in context that those who fall away, wont get into the rest of the Lord. Not once but twice

8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

And repeating this point later,

12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.

17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Notice also the condition to partake of Christ, persevering faith that endures to the end. Those that dont have this hence wont have this participation and they wont enter into God's rest. So thus if this doesnt mean salvation can be lost or that the author actually sees that as a genuine possibility for his audience, it entails that the Saved does not need to partake of Christ at all which contradicts Romans where Christ is the way to escape the verdict of sin and death.

It also means Hebrews' entire logic of Christ as the Sacrifice for sins be illegetimate because that necessitates a connection and participation in him to enable his sacrifice to be applied to the sinner.

There is also another big problem for OSAS, because John 6 and the condition of perseverence only permits the Augustinian approach where OSAS is not presumed because one can really know only at the end of one's life. At the end of John 6 and the repeated emphasis on the flaws of the Apostles indicates that absolute assurance is impossible which is why the repeated emphasis on self examination. If it can be known, why must 2Corinthians and John's epistles stress the need to examine oneself?

>>5849

1)Saying that the final salvation is not contingent on the believer fails because warning passages always instruct those who are Saved to persevere. As they are instructed, it entails that their agency counts overall, just not as an efficient cause but as secondary causes God work through to bring his elect to Salvation. This negates OSAS despite divine priority because the free choice, contingency and acts of the person is not destroyed but supported and maintained. This contingency entails potency to fall away too.

2)The fact that the author of 1John writes that shows that he is dealing with an audience who are facing anxieties over assurance. That John writes to assure them is not an argument for absolute assurance.

Also missing is what the nature of this assurance is, the 1st Chapter of 1John focuses on the concrete historicity of the Incarnation through eyewitnesses and ironically gives us a few cues from noting we are not without sin and if we have fellowship with light, we will not go with the dark,

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Here we see confession of sins to Christ is the key to assurance alongside his atonement and faithfulness, it isnt to do with you having the ultimate certainty of salvation.

In 1John 2, we are also given more 'checklist' to our assurance. And it isnt to do with you having the certainty of salvation. Elaborating on the point that light have no fellowship with darkness, John adds following the commandments(loving one's brother) and also perseverence. Again, nothing saying absolute certainty of salvation. In fact given the stress on perseverence where those who fall away are not of Christ's since if they are his, they wont fall away negates OSAS, as believers must endure to the end to know they are Saved.

>>5849

I think it's more like

>Whoever waits at the bus stop will get to take the bus when it comes.

>>5862

That would make sense if the salvation was an end of life phenomenon, but it happens at the point of belief when you're sealed with the promised holy spirit