5699f0 No.4946
In an ideal state should Christians put homosexauls and adulterers to death the way Muslim countries do today?
Is putting people to death the right punishment for sins like homosexuality and adultery? Would these punishments be carried out in a properly faithful Christian society?
The bible does say that we should carry out these punishments so that we can put the evil ones away from us (so that corruption and degeneracy does not grown in a permissive society like ours)
God never said the Civil law applied only to Jews in the dessert and carrying out these punishments would indicate a legal system in accords with God's wisdom
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c74888 No.4947
Why do you even think the state should exist from a Christian perspective?
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fc012b No.4948
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5699f0 No.4949
>>4947
There was always some sort of state and law from a Christian perspective, for example before the kings there were judges,
it was never just anarchy with every man doing what is right in his eyes, there was a hierarchy and structure to Christian communities
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c74888 No.4950
>>4949
Well actually there was a period where every mad did what was right in his own eyes before the judges, but you're accurately observing that it was a negative.
I'm not challenging the idea that societies shouldn't have structure in place, I'm asking why you started as a presupposition that the state is the correct means of establishing that structure.
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c74888 No.4951
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268acd No.4954
>>4946
Jesus never commands us to kill gays.
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c74888 No.4955
>>4954
Jesus has perfect unity with the rest of the Trinity, and God inspired Leviticus which did command the execution of gays
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5699f0 No.4957
>>4950
Well I suppose it doesn't have to be a formal state, so long as it has some organization, investigation and isn't carried out in the form of mob Justice
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f4cdb4 No.4966
>>4957
mob justice would be better than the process Americans have to deal with now
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465410 No.4975
>>4955
>God inspired Leviticus which did command the execution of gays
The OT also commanded us to be circumcised. Honestly, does nobody read Paul's letters anymore?
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e83c8a No.4977
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465410 No.4978
>>4977
Paul was also circumcised. So was Jesus
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a6a3ec No.4981
>>4975
Where are you challenging what was said?
Whether or not the charge to execute gays is in effect in modern states, Jesus had a hand in commanding their execution in leviticus
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5699f0 No.4984
>>4975
Is your position that Paul was saying the old testament rules don't matter any more?
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268acd No.4991
>>4955
No he doesn't; the god of the Old testament is an ancient pre-hebrew Semitic god of war.
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3014f9 No.4993
>>4991
Shoo shoo gnostic, this is a Christian board
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036436 No.5020
>>4946
Why would we want to be like Mohammadians? Are we next going to drink camel urine for stomach ailments or kill puppies because they scare angels?
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954bbd No.5026
Justice is good, vigilantism is not good
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5699f0 No.5053
>>5020
Not like them in everything but I think they do have some things right. I think they recognize that killing adulterers fornicators and homosexuality is a way to keep evil from growing rampant in a society.
Although I see what this anon is saying
>>4966
I agree that many of the world's governments and courts today are so corrupt and inept that they couldn't possibly be trusted with such a task
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0256df No.5084
>>4957
The state is a mob, that's the point. It uses a monopoly of force and leverages that for it's own interests.
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954bbd No.5085
>>5084
Friendly reminder that anarchism is not Christian and will always be not Christian
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7347e2 No.5091
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1f2ec5 No.5096
>>5091
<Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.
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7347e2 No.5097
>>5096
Expound to show that this requires the state in a Christian worldview
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1f2ec5 No.5105
>>5097
Is this a serious request?
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7347e2 No.5115
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a2fbd1 No.5118
>>5115
Okay, Anon, allow me to spell it out. What we have here is an at length description of an institution, instituted by God to minister His law, stated to be authority, a power superior to individuals, not to be resisted, the men of this institution called rulers (archontes), a terror to wrong doing, instruments of wrath against criminality, empowered by the authority of the sword. They make binding laws, they can levy tax. This is exactly what the state apparatus is, so we should regard it as an example of the great blindness of tradition if one can be so overpowered by their modern individualistic libertarian presuppositions which would have been foreign to all men a few hundred years ago, let alone a few thousand, that they can question why we should require the institution of the state to execute what is called in the English language the state.
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2f026f No.5119
>>5085
A group of Christians can go off into the wild to live in an anarchist commmunity.
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a2fbd1 No.5120
>>5119
Not according to Romans 13.
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fec6b1 No.5121
>>5118
When you say "instituted by God" do you mean that He specially instituted each state and it's leaders, who are doing exactly what he wants them to do?
Remember that Nero was emperor at the time of writing, and he was actively pursuing the extermination of God's people.
Does the state "minister His law"? Where do you live that this is the case?
The consistent reading is to recognize that the coercive governments of the world are not operating outside the plans of God, even if acting in rebellion to his law.
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a2fbd1 No.5123
>>5121
>When you say "instituted by God" do you mean that He specially instituted each state and it's leaders, who are doing exactly what he wants them to do?
The state is instituted in a way similar to the church. While each particular state and church are in a sense instituted immediately by God through His providence, it is not as though God comes down from heaven for each one.
>Remember that Nero was emperor at the time of writing, and he was actively pursuing the extermination of God's people.
Indeed, and we should regard that as proof of just how far from the ideal a ruler must be to invalidate his office. He must not only wage war on God's people, but on God Himself and His creation, failing in nearly every way.
>Does the state "minister His law"?
It should, just like the church should minister His gospel. And just as there might be churches which have strayed so far from their purpose as to be false churches, it is possible for a state to go so far in active rebellion against the basics of God's kingdom as to completely nullify their authority, and make them criminals in God's sight.
>The consistent reading is to recognize that the coercive governments of the world are not operating outside the plans of God, even if acting in rebellion to his law.
That is definitely not the consistent reading, since it is very explicit that the rulers are ordained for a specific purpose, it would obviously not apply to rulers who take up the exact opposite cause, such as many if not most of the modern western governments, of whose agendas it would not be hyperbolic to say that they wish to destroy the world, given their aggressive propagation of the culture of death. In such cases, a reformation of the state by any means necessary is of absolute necessity, and general obedience should be maintained no longer for moral reasons, but strategic.
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fec6b1 No.5126
>>5123
I'm not meaning to argue that there isn't a level of respect Christians should show to state governments, I'm looking for your explanation of why states MUST exist. State being defined in the rothbardian sense as being a coercive entity over a given territory, as opposed to relationships that are entirely voluntary.
What's your ideal conception?
Would you condemn Ron Paul style "minarchism"?
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2f026f No.5128
>>5120
Yeah no, that says nothing of the sort.
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7ebc77 No.5130
>>5126
>why states MUST exist
Because freedom is cancer and humanity needs structure and order to function properly. Freedom is literally a toxic spiritual substance that breaks down functioning order for whatever excuse it happens to stumble upon.
Freedom is literal entropy and the death of all that is wholesome and good.
So that is why you need a body of governance, because its the only way to keep freedom (aka. chaos) in check.
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7347e2 No.5135
>>5130
You are a flat children's novel villain
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7ebc77 No.5154
>>5135
And you are a liberal scumbag.
:)
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7347e2 No.5157
>>5154
>buzzwords
There is nothing more right than hoppean anarchism
Why don't your base an argument on something substantive, not esoteric platitudes about freedom being a toxic spiritual substance
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567d4b No.5161
>>5126
>I'm looking for your explanation of why states MUST exist.
Romans 13 states that it is ordained by God to ensure justice and order among men. This isn't a human institution, it is a divine one.
>State being defined in the rothbardian sense
I reject voluntarism and its premises.
>What's your ideal conception?
A Puritan state
>Would you condemn Ron Paul style "minarchism"?
That would depend on its application. Would this small state be apathetic towards grave sins such as sodomy? I have no objection to small government, as long as it is still proper government.
>>5157
>There is nothing more right than hoppean anarchism
Okay bud, your novel modern idealogy based on enlightenment principles is the very definition of tradition and conservatism, sure.
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7ebc77 No.5224
>>5157
>accuses you of thrhowing buzzwords
>literally believes anarchy is the way
>demands arguments against freedom as if our rotting societies weren't demonstrative enough
kike detected
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63ebf0 No.5228
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7ebc77 No.5236
>>5228
>posts another kike
the memes write themselves these days
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2c04eb No.5390
>>4946
This is very complex question. For true answer you should ask the leader of God's helpers.
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c3b1d9 No.5421
>>5390
What a useless reply
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81d478 No.5422
>>4946
Kids cornholing under the age of 18, we'll let that slide with firm reprimand and if they show signs of shame and remorse. Permit to live.
>persistent/repeat homo-behavior after official reprimand=death by lethal injection or least painful way
>death by slow burn for rapist, pedos, and murderers, traitors, etc.
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23371a No.5467
>>4946
We must disavow every vigilante justice, but a just state should put gays to death.
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75a544 No.5475
>>5422
>wilfully causing a painful death instead of a quick, merciful one
hmmm
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5699f0 No.5483
>>5475
I donno, God's prescribed punishment for many offenses was stoning which is very slow and painful death
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23371a No.5485
>>5483
Nah, I think once you get hit by a good throw to the head you're done, or at least you're knocked out. The purpose is rather to have the whole congregation dispense the punishment.
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fb567c No.5486
>>5483
I think that was done largely to make people afraid of committing those crimes.
But watching a quick and painless execution has the same effect.
Its not a matter of pain, its a matter publicity.
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