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File: 6f4ff9b896bc3d2⋯.jpg (15.69 KB, 400x400, 1:1, God.jpg)

3fd3be  No.431

The thing about truth is that you know it when you hear it.

God’s name, in modern English, is Causality, or The Universe, or Spacetime. By these names is the anthropomorphised theory of everything best understood.

You may think this is a reinterpretation, and therefore invalid or at least, talking about an entirely different concept and misassociating it with the idea of God. You will see that the idea of a magical man in the sky is, in fact, the misinterpretation of the truth.

I do not believe our ancestors believed in a literal magical man in the sky. I am sure they believed, at least initially, in the concepts I am about to lay before you. They called it God, and told stories about it, anthropomorphising it to make it more understandable to everyone, especially children. These were people trying to communicate important, physical, universal truths, thousands of years before science. It is no wonder they used metaphor and stories.

The atheists who laugh at these stories as plainly false, are fools. It’s as if, on being told that “a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush” they sneer and say that ‘’'falconry is irrelevant today’’’. Well no shit Sherlock, you’ve completely missed the point, and to make matters worse you actually ‘’congratulate’’ yourself on being clever enough to evolve beyond falconry. It’s laughably shallow thinking, but forgivable because we have moved so far out of Biblical context that the stories are mostly inaccessible today for those coming to them fresh. They do seem crazy when taken at face value.

Unfortunately, the Church has largely forgotten the original truths too, or is at least terrible at explaining them, and are left defending dogmatic metaphors as if they are literally real, also making themselves into fools. When I went to a Church recently, the priest was reading random sections of the Bible without context. To an outsider, it’s meaningless. The faith has become blind.

We have lost the ability to talk about God directly, because nobody seems to know what the hypothesis actually is. We are left with every debate between believers and atheists being largely about whether or not religion is good, which is irrelevant to the actual question of whether or not there is a God. Believers get blind faith, atheists get blind nihilism.

There is obviously not a magical man in the sky. But you will see that the universe, from our perspective, actually behaves ‘’as if there is’’. The story of God is a brilliant metaphor for a truth that’s very hard to convey, especially to children. It works, and religion actually makes sense, when we understand what God actually is. We will start from the core truth, referring to God as “It” for now, and then re-anthropomorphise it and come to see that the stories of all religions actually make a lot of sense.

Causality is God. God is Causality. It is all matter, energy; the whole universe. In other words, The All, or Spacetime.

3fd3be  No.432

File: 3b610a3dc33bb0e⋯.jpg (15.33 KB, 437x322, 19:14, Causality.jpg)

>>431

Everything that happens today, happens because of what happened in the past. Cause and effect rule the cosmos, via the laws of physics. If we have a vacuum chamber with 100 Oxygen molecules inside, and we know their starting positions and velocities, then we can model what happens inside perfectly. In other words, we can predict the future of these 100 particles. We know where they are going, how fast, and what will happen when they collide with each other or the sides of the chamber. We could model the box infinitely into the future with a powerful enough computer. Their future is pre-ordained by the laws of physics. Perhaps it would be impossible in practice to know enough to actually predict the outcomes. But that is a human limitation. Even if we cannot access it, the information is there that predicts the future of the molecules.

This chamber is a model of the universe. A second after the big bang, the entire timeline of the universe was already decided. A causes B causes C causes Z, eventually. It is unknowable to us, but the information is there. All of human history, your life, your future, were pre-ordained at the beginning of the universe (or perhaps before?). The universe, after all, is simply matter and energy interacting according to straightforward laws of classical physics. According to quantum theory (if you believe in that), many interactions are unpredictable, and down to probabilities. But if there’s a 60% chance of an atom in the sun emitting a photon, then 60% of the atoms will emit photons. Probabilities only make things unpredictable when you look at situations in isolation. The whole universe is still running according to laws. Spacetime is a script written at the moment of creation.

We don’t have free will. We have the illusion of free will based on ignorance. You can’t know all variables, so you have to choose between seemingly viable options. But if you look back on every real choice you made in your life, you will see that actually, you never would have chosen differently. You ‘’could’’ have if you had different information, or a different mindset at the time… but you didn’t. You don’t create a new universe every time you make a choice. Like the vacuum chamber, your life is simply matter and energy interacting. It is thought that every decision you make is already formed in your head up to 10 seconds before you’re conscious of it. Did you just decide to do something random like pick up a pen for no reason, to prove you have free will? Would you have done so if you hadn’t read these paragraphs? Cause and effect rules the universe, and us.

So, living in the universe, we are completely subject to cause and effect, and we still have the illusion of free will because we’re doing our best with the information and tools we have. From here, it is simply a case of pattern recognition. There are patterns of behaviour, actions, that improve survival chances, and actions that decrease your chances. These are not necessarily possible to learn in one lifetime’s experience. It probably took us hundreds if not thousands of generations to figure out patterns of causes and effects like;

If you’re Lustful, Prideful, Envious, Slothful, Gluttonous, Greedy, or Wrathful you might waste energy, get nothing done, create chaos in the tribe, get into fights, and die.

If you work hard, are kind to others, self-restrained, strong but peaceful, and humble you might be liked more by your tribe, get more food and produce better conditions for everyone, and get to breed more.

Morality is simply any pattern of behaviour that increases your people’s health, wealth, prosperity and happiness. Because our universe has laws, these patterns are learnable, repeatable, and true on a meta-level, i.e. not in one situation, but any situation.

Now, how would a wise old caveman pass these lessons of experience down to young children?

“Don’t do this, this or this. The universe will punish you. If you do this, this and this, the universe will reward you.”


3fd3be  No.434

>>432

This is beginning to communicate cause and effect in a storial, anthropomorphised way. It is not a long shot from here to replace the word universe with the word God. Pretty much every human who ever lived spent at least their first 12 years in the world taking orders from, and having the world explained to them, by their elders. Learn your letters and you will do well in life. Practice your spear throwing and you will be a successful male one day. Don’t touch snakes. Share your food. Rules come down from above- mostly from older men. It’s easy to see why God has been portrayed as an old man in the sky; the ultimate rule-giver, who has secrets about life that we don’t understand yet, but have to follow, because the elders seem to, and as young people we know we don’t know everything.

A religion is then simply the body of communication of the laws of cause and effect observed over the generations. The stories that teach the morals, the festivals that observe our place in the cause and effect universe, and the rules that attempt to keep us on a moral path- to keep us behaving adaptively. When the religion stops doing this, it dies. Christianity in Europe died in 1914 by supporting war, but it was sick for a long time before then. It is now little more than a fringe mystic tradition in practice, with no moral authority because it has lost its connection to the truth.


3fd3be  No.435

File: faccd677ab5e209⋯.jpg (44.31 KB, 500x332, 125:83, AnthropomorphicUniverse.jpg)

>>434

Re-anthropomorphising God

Now we can look at religious teachings and see if the seemingly strange claims can be explained with this theory.

“God has a plan for everyone” - pre-ordained universe.

“God works in mysterious ways” - the plan is unknowable to us because we have very limited information.

“God loves us”- this is the most interesting one. Anything could have happened in history. We could have been enslaved by aliens 10,000 years ago and be living in rape dungeons right now. We could have never evolved into creatures that can experience joy, love and beauty. We could have been actually taken over by full blown communism. Your personal life could be much, much worse. There is surely a lot of pain and suffering in the world, but there is also an incredible amount of beauty and joy to be had. I understand how flowers evolved, but why? Why didn’t the universe pre-ordain that we’d never evolve above bacteria? If the universe is truly indifferent, we are insanely lucky. And I believe that technically the universe ‘’is’’ indifferent, but it seems to act as if it loves us.

If life really wasn’t worth living, if there was really more bad than good, then almost everyone would commit suicide. Life is good, and enjoyable. If you’re not enjoying it, you’re doing something wrong.

“Have faith in God” - Given that life in the universe happens to be good in general, we can have hope and even faith that the future will turn out well. Maybe there will be lots of pain and suffering along the way, but maybe that’s necessary somehow, to make the final victory over evil all the more powerful and meaningful, to make the beauty that we find and build all the more valuable and great.

“We are God’s children” - We know little individually, especially when we’re young and arrogant, and by studying causes and effects in life (pattern recognition) we can learn to live better. It’s as if the universe wants to raise us, by giving us certain experiences to teach us lessons.

“The Lord is my Shepherd” - A shepherd in biblical times was seen as a caregiver. It took a lot of work to look after a flock. Again, the universe seems to look after us. Things do look bad at the moment, but do any of us really expect to lose this fight? Do we really think our enemies are doing anything but ensuring their own deaths by fucking with us? We will have many casualties like in any war, but this only means we will come out stronger, having learned important lessons. At least 400,000 Europeans were enslaved by the Ottoman empire. Did this stop us? Where are the Ottomans now? Even in these dark times we have beauty, and history, and nature, and art, all to give us hope and recharge us. We DON’T live in a grimdark universe.

“God will forgive our sins if we repent”- this is quite simple. The universe is fairly forgiving. You can have a lustful youth and still make it. You can eat and drink too much and still make it. You’re not damned to failure immediately if you break the rules. Only if you ‘live in sin’, ie consistently make maladaptive decisions, will things likely go wrong for you. If you repent, ie learn from your mistakes and accept the rules of morality, then you might get another chance at biological success.

“Jesus was the son of God” - Jesus grew up learning from experience and pattern recognition the true ‘way’, ie the absolute most perfectly adaptive behaviour. He learned it from God by observing cause and effect. God taught him how to live, raised him; in other words, he was the son of God.

So you see, the magical man in the sky is not the idea. It is the communication of the idea, the metaphor for the truth. It only ceases to make sense when it is taken literally and the truth- Causality- is forgotten. God = Spacetime is not a reinterpretation. It is the truth at the heart of the myth, a myth that has become detached and therefore, appears false and is easily knocked down.


3fd3be  No.436

>>435

God in religious contexts

Now, you might not accept these claims of the Bible, and that’s fine. It doesn’t actually disprove God’s existence if none of these are true. Maybe God doesn’t care after all. That’s where faith comes in. Christians have faith that God is good and in Jesus, but this is only one religion. Accepting the fact of God’s existence is different to having faith in God, and it’s also different to following a specific religion. I’m not sure if I can be part of Christianity in its current form, so corrupt it’s become, but I do believe Jesus was a perfect example of a man and died for my sins. Perhaps we need to restart it from a position of truth. The downfall of Christianity was its sword of truth; eventually many parts of the Bible were discovered to be scientifically incorrect, ie untrue, and the baby was thrown out with the bathwater. But the Bible was written by unscientific people; it being wrong about the Earth’s shape doesn’t make their wisdom about life wrong. But it’s understandably hard to accept the word of a book that’s been discredited, when many of the modern people preaching it have forgotten the actual message, and simply preach dogma and don’t follow their own morals. It’s hard to see the original truth in there without getting to it from first principles.

Polytheism does not necessarily disagree with monotheism. Norse and Classical mythology is a different type of religion; they passed down their morals through stories of heroes, and these heroes are like mythical ancestors of the people. It is likely that Odin and Thor were real people, ancient kings of the Indo-Europeans. It is likely that Odin, Zeus, Jupiter and Rama are the same person. Myths and concepts get attached to them; archetypes of heroes, useful in teaching causality, virtues and morals. These religions do not really disagree with monotheism, rather they simply lack it. Hinduism of course has a ‘one true god’, and a trinity as well. It could be said that the Norse Yggdrasil is a version of The All. The fact of God can be easily integrated with a pantheon of Gods; the Gods are archetypes and causes relating to the human world, under the umbrella of and parts of the All. The simple truth of one true God is more true than hero myths, though, which is probably why they all converted to Christianity and not the other way round. We here know better than anyone that the winning ideology in the long run will always be that with the closest relationship with the truth.

Different parts of the world have different moralities and adaptations; hence, Islam, Taoism, Sikhism, Buddhism etc. Buddhism is not a religion in the same way as others; it is simpler, more of a perspective to be adopted rather than a whole story. The others accept God, or they call it the Universal energy, or Allah, but different races have evolved to deal with causality and the laws of the universe differently and so tell their stories differently and pass on different messages.


3fd3be  No.437

File: eed674c93f3ca9c⋯.jpeg (8.3 KB, 189x267, 63:89, Jupiter.jpeg)

>>436

Forgot pic


3fd3be  No.438

File: 44baca464854efd⋯.jpg (10.34 KB, 204x255, 4:5, 23406307764a5317ced8e47034….jpg)

>>437

Atheism

Speaking as a former Atheist, Atheism seems to come from either ignorance or denial. If we accept God is the name for Causality, then atheism is the rejection of consequences. It is the belief that our world, our lives, can be completely and competently controlled by ourselves. We can make the best judgements, we don’t need any external wisdom, and there are no universal rules.

It is this or ignorance. Understandably, many modern people have no time to think about the messages of Christianity, especially since it became corrupt, lost all moral authority, and parts of the Bible were disproved. They are brought up atheist, or practicing a religion as more of a tradition without truly believing in it. Why would they consider God at all? They are presented with a magical man in the sky and rightfully dismiss it out of hand. There is nobody to teach them what God actually is or means. So they go about their lives laughing at the faithful, missing out on the knowledge that they are part of a great universal script, and therefore, their lives and actions matter.

Nihilism and immorality follow. Why bother doing anything? Why restrain myself? What’s the point in morality? It’s just a stupid, constricting set of rules imposed by people who believe in a magical man in the sky. There can’t be any value in it. We have the moral hangover of Christianity in the west; some people are still moral, without really knowing why. It is just convention, left over from a (much more powerful, but this is forgotten) society that truly believed. It is slowly and surely declining to nothing more than the vaguest politeness (if that), and virtue-signalling ‘human solidarity’, which means nothing and goes out the window as soon as life becomes challenging.

As we can clearly see, this societal atheism has led to extremely maladaptive behaviours on both the individual and national level. There is no guide to policy beyond personal gain and what gives the directionless masses positive emotions, because we abandoned our old guide, a guide that was an attempt to convey the lessons of thousands of years of experience. Without learning from history somehow, we are bound to make the same mistakes again. I don’t need to explain in much detail here how immoral/maladaptive, insane and wrong the west’s actions have become.

It is because we believe we can do what we want and that we can decide the consequences. We have stopped believing that actions have predictable, unavoidable consequences. We believe we have more control than the universe does. This is the only explanation for the insane decisions made by most of society and individuals today.

Of course, having faith in God, I believe this is all part of the symphony, a terrible crescendo of immorality and evil that will make the following triumph of light and beauty all the more powerful in its majesty. I have faith in God’s plan. But I also believe I must play my part and put this information out there.


3fd3be  No.439

File: a27474a83d6fb47⋯.jpg (54.37 KB, 900x400, 9:4, EuropeanSoul.jpg)

>>438

Future

I think in reforging faith in the universe, our place in it, our morality, and our bright future, a Western version of Hinduism needs to evolve; acceptance of the one true God, and understanding of that fact, the Trinity, Jesus, but also including the Norse and Classical myths, stories, heroes and gods (with a lower case g) which are tightly bound to our race-soul. The 8 limbs of yoga, the 9 noble virtues- all are important to live a good, wise, successful life.

There is no limit to how much wisdom we are ‘allowed’ to pass on or what material we can use to teach lessons of morality and truth to our descendants. The main truth is, no matter what you believe or have faith in, that one true God exists, and that God is Spacetime, Causality, The Creator, The All. Perhaps it really is conscious.


d8dba8  No.440

>I do not believe our ancestors believed in a literal magical man in the sky

If you believe the Bible you must, he's portrayed from the beginning in Genesis as a person


d8dba8  No.441

>>438

What are you now, being a former atheist?


90d5b6  No.442

>>440

we are made in his image; god is through us


3fd3be  No.443

>>441

A child of God. I can't really identify with modern Christians though. They all love Israel and don't follow any of the morals laid out in the Bible. So I don't really call myself Christian. I believe in Jesus and also enjoy Norse Mythology and Hindu teachings such as yoga. I don't see any conflicts in these beliefs.


90d5b6  No.444

>>443

and you hate the jews?


90d5b6  No.445

>>443

this is the most important tenet of all genuine spirituality


d8dba8  No.446

>>443

If you don't see the conflict you're not looking very hard

Yoga is inherently a spiritual exercise, and so idolatry. Just doing the stretching is fine, but that's not "yoga" in the original sense

If your norse enthusiasm is purely scholastic you're also fine, but believing in other Gods is a contradiction as I'm sure you know

Do you go to a church?


3fd3be  No.447

>>440

I don't believe the Bible to be 100% accurate. It was written by men. And no, he's not actually described as a magical man in the sky. That's just your interpretation.

>>444

No I don't hate the Jews, I think they're wrong and immoral though.

>>445

What is?


d8dba8  No.448

>>442

What do you mean when you say "through us"?

Is this a mormon-type "little gods" thing?


d8dba8  No.449

>>447

>I don't believe the Bible to be 100% accurate. It was written by men. And no, he's not actually described as a magical man in the sky. That's just your interpretation.

that's basic hermeneutics

Genesis is prose, as is almost all of scripture. It's meant to be read as a historical document. You're engaging in a post-modern idea called "critical theory"


3fd3be  No.450

>>446

What's wrong with looking after my body and spirit? Yoga means union, union with the universal principle, ie God.

I don't go to church, for reasons I explained. I have found most modern Christians to be essentially heretics compared to the actual original religion. I don't want to worship alongside people who believe there's nothing wrong with sodomy, divorce, lust, abortion etc. I am thinking of going to one soon anyway, though.

And I believe pagan gods are actually a different concept entirely. A better word for them is archetypes, or heroes, even moods. They exist, in the same way that the archetypal hero exists. When they went to battle, they 'channelled' Thor, ie, they got into a certain mood and spirit for battle, and sang songs about the archetypal warrior. This doesn't contradict there being one true God above all of that.


d8dba8  No.451

>>450

The God of the Bible is not a universal principle, so such a goal is idolatry. Even if your posture was entirely to God, the means are not affirmed in the Bible. Christian meditation, prayer and fasting are all similar but they do not coincide.

Again, physically stretching is not a problem

If that's the sort of church you spent time with I'm glad you're out of there too, but there's no shortage of churches that are against those things you listed

The way you present paganism is totally fine and not idolatry, but if we're being consistent theres no denying that ancient pagans really believed in them as deities just like today's larpers


3fd3be  No.452

>>451

>The God of the Bible is not a universal principle

Really? The ultimate power, the creator, the Lord is not supposed to be the divine truth? It just seems like word games. If there's one true God, why is it so hard to believe that more than one religion knows Him, and simply calls Him by a different name?

Like I said, the Bible is just a book written by men. Because those men didn't know yoga, it's somehow evil? Yoga is just exercise and meditation combined. It also includes chastity and truthfulness. It seems very Godly to me.

>theres no denying that ancient pagans really believed in them as deities

You really don't know what men in the 800s were actually thinking. You don't know that their idea of deities is the same as yours. I expect they really did believe their gods to seriously 'exist', but not in the physical world. Like 'bravery' and 'luck' exist, but they are concepts not a physical thing.


3fd3be  No.453

>>449

When God speaks to Adam, you imagine a man in the sky talking to Adam. But it doesn't actually say this is the case. God could be in Adam's head, or all around him, or 'speaking' to him could mean showing him signs. It's meant to be read as a historical document sure, but you don't know the assumptions of the author. We're reading it thousands of years later, we might well have lost the cultural context needed to glean the true meaning.


293533  No.454

>>452

It is a "word game", that's why exegesis is important

Remember that the bible says "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." John 14:6

In my view every thinking man comes to the realization of the supernatural, and necessity of a supreme being, that's general revelation

To know who he is we rely on special revelation, the Bible or another text that claims to be divine (book of mormon, quran)

Yoga is not just exercise and meditation combined. It is specially designed in worship of the Hindu god. If I came up with a system where I keep healthy in worship of Baal, it's still Baal worship even though health is a biblically affirmed virtue

>You really don't know what men in the 800s were actually thinking

I can only take them at their word. When they say "we worship Odin, he is our god" the burden is on you to show they had an allegorical meaning


3fd3be  No.456

>>454

But why do you think Brahma is different to the Christian God? They teach the same morals. They both have Trinities. It seems like Hinduism is just the Indian way of worshipping the one true God. They have polytheism too but this is a lower order, gods with lower case g's, like the norse ones, they don't contradict the one Father.

>we worship Odin, he is our god

What I'm saying is that the pagan idea of worship and gods is fundamentally different to the Christian one. You're using the same words for categorically different concepts.


293533  No.457

>>453

Agreed that's the point of originalism

What do you do with a theophany, like when Jacob wrestles with God?


293533  No.458

>>456

God isn't a collection of qualities, he's a person with specific instruction for us

If hindu practices line up on any given moral instructions that's a good thing, but you can not be spared from Hell without Jesus according to the Bible


3fd3be  No.460

>>458

>according to the Bible

I guess this is the crux of my thread when it comes to Christianity. Sure the Bible is your guide and holy book. But many Christians seem to follow it blindly, to be limited by it.

If the men who wrote the Bible could converse with God and learn the truth, why can't you? Why do you get all your answers from the Bible, rather than from God Himself? The Bible is important as a guide, but do you believe it is 100% factually correct? Do you believe the Earth is flat because the Bible says so? I believe it was written by good men who naturally had some limits to their knowledge.

It just seems like you go by the book because you can't ask God. God gave me reasoning skills and taught me morals, he is certainly capable of doing the same for Indians, and oh look, Indians worship a God who is just like the Christian God. Why stick so strongly to the bible when you can just look at the world, look at the truth with God in your heart, and see what He has to show you? It's 2000 years later and Christianity seems to have learned nothing, where is hasn't gone backwards into sin. If we can speak to God, surely he will keep teaching us things.


3fd3be  No.461

>>458

>>460

Also

>you can not be spared from Hell without Jesus

I believe this to be true, but does one have to know it? Jesus is the way, but what if a God-loving, moral person followed the same way without ever hearing about Jesus? I'm asking because I'm pretty sure Yoga is simply the Hindu version of 'the way'. And it's very similar to Jesus' teachings. Humility, charity, honesty, chastity, vegetarianism, kindness to others etc.


293533  No.462

>>460

>If the men who wrote the Bible could converse with God and learn the truth, why can't you?

We do through prayer, but no more special revelation

>do you believe it is 100% factually correct?

Yes, I believe total inerrancy is the only consistent view of scripture given 2 Tim 3:16. I also believe the Bible does require a flat earth view and it's correct, but I'm in a small minority

It is not possible to work out your salvation merely with general revelation

>So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. Romans 10:17

>>461

This is a conflict of terms, because "the way" is a title of Christ the person

You don't have to pronounce is "Jesus" in english, but believe the Gospel message. A lifelong Hindu can hear and believe the gospel, but then he's no longer a hindu


3fd3be  No.463

>>462

>"the way" is a title of Christ the person

This is what I'm talking about. "The way" doesn't have any meaning, no, it's just the title of Jesus. It's not like it could mean "the way to live" or anything, Jesus being the perfect example. Why is it the title of Jesus? Because the Bible says so. Why is the Bible correct? Because the Bible says so. This is called blind faith, it's why atheists laugh at believers and you've stopped converting people. You can't explain what any of it actually means in plain English. You are just repeating dogma and it's meaningless.

Do you even know God? Or do you just do what the Bible tells you to and don't really understand it but go along with it?


293533  No.465

>>463

If the Bible's claim to be divinely inspired were the only evidence, yes it would be fallacious and circular logic

I believe the bible because I have first heard the gospel, asked for salvation and received the holy spirit

There's no internal contradiction with the bible claiming divine inspiration


3fd3be  No.466

>>465

None of that proves that the Bible is the ONLY source of salvation. If God is real, He's real for everyone, and anyone who knows Him can speak with Him. The Bible is right in many ways I just don't understand why you think it's the only valid source of spiritual knowledge.


293533  No.467

>>466

>None of that proves that the Bible is the ONLY source of salvation.

The language of the Bible's gospel is exclusive, "no one comes to the father but by me"


293533  No.468

>>466

>>467

So that's not a proof of the bible being the sole source of soteriology, but if the scripture is true then that's the only way


3fd3be  No.469

>>467

That sounds like he's saying "nobody comes to the father, but by living like me". This actually makes sense; nobody finds God unless they live well.

Do you interpret the Bible like that, or do you just blindly do what it says? This is what I've found with modern Christianity, it's like they're just going through the motions without understanding or being able to explain what their faith actually means to others. It's incredibly unsatisfying (and unconvincing) to be told 'it's this way because the book says so'. It's just weak. You're supposed to have the divine truth, why is it so badly explained by believers? It just seems like you don't actually understand it.


293533  No.470

>>469

Explicitly the opposite:

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

not as a result of works, that no one should boast. (Eph. 2:8-9 NAS)

You can not be saved by "living well"

Romans 3 and 6 tell us "the wages of sin is death" and "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"

The gospel message is that you believe on Jesus, who lived the perfect life, and gave himself as a sacrifice for atonement of our sins


3fd3be  No.471

>>470

Yes OK, I believe all of that. But I believe it because of the life experience God has given me. I've not really read the Bible and I always agree with it. It always seems like God had already taught me the truth and the way, at least partially. Thus, I can believe the Bible because I've seen it's truth revealed to me already. Before God found me, I didn't believe in morals at all, and someone telling me about the bible like that… they're not explaining it. It always boils down to "you have to have faith in this book because this book says so". I talk to actual preists and it's like they've not opened their eyes to what God is showing them day to day in real life. They just obey the book.

My question is really, is it the same for you? Can you explain, in non-biblical terms, why it makes sense to have faith? Who God is and why he's real? Or do you HAVE to quote the Bible because it hasn't been revealed to you?


b0fd7b  No.472

>>471

I have to use scripture as the basis for argument because that's the way it's revealed

There are stories of Arabs all having the same Messianic dream in a night and professing christ, but those should be viewed as exceptions to the norm of scripture as the exclusive source of special revelation


3fd3be  No.473

>>472

I'll take that as a no.


15e6c9  No.474

File: fbe2f58955f93f7⋯.jpg (590.51 KB, 700x6826, 350:3413, aquinasMotion.jpg)

>>431

Why don't you quit spamming your high-idea bullshit everywhere and go read some books?

Aquinas (pic related) covered how causality leads to God pretty rigorously in Summa Theologiae.

Kierkegaard in his own trollish way covers why God must be human, by examining what a person fundamentally is (A relation between the material and the world of forms). Primarily covered in The Sickness Unto Death.

The Bible covers how you can follow God's will via the Holy Spirit and gives a method for subjective verification.

Necessary Existent -> Monotheism

Existentialism -> God is 'human' in some way

Bible -> Simple faith leads to salvation through Jesus

>>461

You have obviously not sat down and actually read the Bible. Or if you did you picked out what you wanted to hear without praying for guidance from the Holy Spirit. Jesus is very very specific, the way is through Him alone. He is kind to others, but also essentially promoting Himself and correct teachings above all else. You can not do any of those 'good' things and still go to heaven (Thief on the cross). Conversely you can do 'good' things and not goto heaven – salvation is specifically not through works. He was much more concerned with people spreading His message, which in turn was Jesus Himself, since He is the Word of God made flesh.

> vegetarianism

Go fuck yourself. God specifically gave us dominion over animals, and naturally we have incisors and need for animal proteins.


15e6c9  No.475

>>471

> Can you explain, in non-biblical terms, why it makes sense to have faith? Who God is and why he's real? Or do you HAVE to quote the Bible because it hasn't been revealed to you?

It's similar to how you 'know' you exist and experience things. It's a subjective proof that can only be proven to yourself (Unless God grants a miracle to help convince others). You can't prove to me you exist, I maybe dreaming/delirious/in a simulation/etc. But you obviously know that you do, so much so that it doesn't require proof.

Faith in Jesus is the same way. For me it was understanding God likely exists through the bazillion natural theology arguments, realizing He is likely a person through existential arguments, and then looking at all the religions for contradictions. Diving into the Bible it clearly says you won't understand much without the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 2:12-14 for example). So it gives a very clear experiment you can try:

> Have faith Jesus is there

> Pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit

> Read the Bible / listen to preachers and you'll have a built-in BS detector

i.e. you become aware of a 3rd party helping to steer your understanding.

God also works often times through personal miracles that can be hard to deny. Again, it's something that won't convince others – but obviously very convincing to the believer.


15e6c9  No.476

>>461

>kindness to others etc.

Also one more point on this, the Lord is not kind to most people – the path to heaven is narrow (Matt 7:13). Take for instance the story where he heals lepers in Luke 17. He cured 10 of them, and 1 came back the next day to thank him and follow his teachings.

Those other 9 are going to burn for eternity, and that will be by the Lord's design. He showed them temporary kindness hoping to convert them (He wishes all will be saved 1 Timothy 2:4), but in the end He will be the one condemning them to everlasting suffering.

The Bible is pretty clear that one needs faith on the Lord (John 3:36, Mark 12:30, etc.) and not just 'kind' works. Those should definitely follow, and can be evidence someone is turning from sin. But the nicest Hindu practicing idol worship (Remember the Lord is a jealous God Exodus 20:5) will be burning in the lake of fire, while the repentant murderer with faith in Jesus will inherit the kingdom of heaven.


98896c  No.477

>>474

Ok well I would never have been given/found those book references if I hadnt posted these ideas. Thanks.

>we need animal proteins

Plants and dairy are completely sufficient. I would eat animals in a survival situation or famine, but while I have abundance I will show them kindness and not kill them simply for my own satisfaction. If you wouldn't kill an animal with your own hands you shouldn't eat meat.

>>475

>>476

Very good answers, thank you. This somewhat restores my faith in Christianity. I've honestly never heard a Christian explain belief in God before. They always just say "well it's faith and the book" which isn't actually an explanation of what it means to them.

I agree with you.


15e6c9  No.496

>>477

Sorry to come off so hostile, but this is exactly the type of path the Bible warns against. They who profess themselves wise and tweaking/re-appropriating scripture are both explicitly called out. Bible believing Christians see this all the time and it is responsible for many of this world's ills.

Really, just think that Jesus could possibly be true and pray with all humility for understanding while going through at least the New Testament. It's a really simple test, and it can definitely be proven.


15e6c9  No.497

>>477

>If you wouldn't kill an animal with your own hands you shouldn't eat meat.

Actually I do, I hunt and have some farm animals. I do think it teaches you a lot to kill something with your own hands and to raise something with the intention of killing it. Sounds morbid, but especially Biblically we are all essentially cattle that God will take (vengeance is His). The only difference is that ones who can hear his Word (Jesus) will escape the second death.


d4bfd1  No.498

>>471

> I've not really read the Bible and I always agree with it.

How do you know this if you haven't really read it?


0dff73  No.610

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>471

> what God is showing them day to day in real life.

Some Christians do believe God communicates with us day to day. Have a look at stuff from the pentecostal/charismatic stream of the church.

In fact, reading your posts I would say the holy spirit is leading you toward Jesus. I would recommend prayerfully reading the gospels (Matthew mark luke and John in the new testament) if you haven't already.

I can recommend teaching from International house of prayer (mike bickle) and Bethel (Bill Johnson), bethel are a bit weird about money (they like it too much IMO) but they are blessed by the lord.

>>474

Animals were not given as food until after the fall. Initially, God commanded that humanity should only eat plants. Only after the flood does God allow for meat to be eaten. So perfection is vegetarianism.




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