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File: eb97fcd45cbc12a⋯.jpg (47.14 KB, 800x960, 5:6, 50091131_2052543828159385_….jpg)

504567  No.2043

Let’s find out, starting with its Greek.

καὶὑμᾶς ἀντίτυπον νῦνσῴζει βάπτισμα, οὐ σαρκὸς ἀπόθεσις ῥύπου ἀλλὰ συνειδήσεως ἀγαθῆς ἐπερώτημα εἰς θεόν, δι’ ἀναστάσεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

Although the verb ἐπερωτάω is common enough in the New Testament and wider literature, the passive cognate noun ἐπερώτημα is very rare. However based on early papyri that we got(i.e such as in P.Oxy. 9.1200, the registration of a deed dated to 266 CE,and in P.Oxy. 9.1208, the public acknowledgement of a contract of sale in 291 CE) it carries the sense of a contract or covenant, perhaps also equivalent to the Latin applicatio ad patronum, whereby one entered into a client–patron relationship.

Also at issue is how one should take the genitive συνειδήσεως.If objective, then it would refer to the pledge of a Christian to maintain a good conscience, but if subjective, it would be the good conscience from which a Christian makes a commitment to God in baptism. The present consensus seems to be in favor of an objective genitive, with the ἐπερώτημα understood as consisting of the commitment or ‘pledge’ made at baptism to preserve a good conscience, that is, mindfulness of God or proper conduct, in one’s subsequent life.

For instance see:

Achtemeier, 1 Peter,pp.271–72; Elliott, 1 Peter,p.681. Also taking it as an objective genitive, referring to the baptizand’s pledge to maintain a good conscience, are Reicke, Disobedient Spirits,p .185; J. N. D. Kelly, A Commentary on the Epistles of Peter and of Jude (BNTC; London: Black, 1969), p. 162; Roger Omanson, ‘Suffering for Righteousness’ Sake (1 Pet 3:13–4:11)’, RevExp 79 (1982), p. 444; Leonhard Goppelt, A Commentary on 1 Peter, trans. John E. Alsup (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1993), p. 258; R. T. France, ‘Exegesis in Practice: Two Samples’, in I. H. Marshall (ed.), New Testament Interpretation: Essays on Principles and Methods (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1977), p. 275. However, Michaels, 1 Peter,p.216, holds out for a subjective genitive.

On this reading the συνείδησις ἀγαθή refers to the content of the ‘pledge’ undertaken at baptism. Hence, the view of baptism as a formal and public contract with subsequent binding force on the parties involved

So wait a minute here, Baptism is like signing a deal to enter into a relationship with God? Isnt that different from views that see baptism as something done after this relationship is entered into?

0bb52e  No.2052

File: 6a715927f07fe3c⋯.png (105.17 KB, 1234x1390, 617:695, Screenshot_2019-03-28 1 Pe….png)

Don't spam with copy-paste. You've outed yourself as not knowing what you're talking about by mergingwords togetherin thegreek.

If you want to debate a topic, articulate it yourself.

Anyway, the argument is

1) syneidēseōs (of a conscience) is an objective genitive

2) as an objective genitive, this word points to baptism as a contract

3) such a contract view is in contest with symbolic baptism

I'm not finding how 2 or 3 necessarily follow. Sure, let's say baptism carries a component of being a promise to live as a Christian moving forward. Where is the soteriological connection? Meaning, why does that understanding make it a grace-bringing action?


504567  No.2057

>>2052

1)ἐπερωτάω is used as contracts in trading activities where the contract is meant to bind the buyer and seller into a relationship

2)Because 1), and the pledge of good conscience is part of the contract made to God where one enters into a relationship with him.

The Symbolic view is in contradiction with this. Why? Because Baptism is NEVER a contract to enter into the New Covenant in that view. It takes place AFTER!


0bb52e  No.2062

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>2057

>takes place after

not necessarily true. Presbyterians like the late RC Sproul baptize infants while still under a symbolic understanding. To them, it signifies the covenant but can occur before the individual professes faith on account of the faith of the parents.


b93c8f  No.2063

It is not hard to follow. OP says "of a good conscience" as used in 1Peter 3:21 is shown in papryi to be used in context of getting into trade relationships. No symbolists save maybe some Calvinists ever say that Baptism is some seal that establishes relationship with God.


504567  No.2064

>>2062

The baptism doesnt do anything to Sproul. It only symbolizes some action done or will be done in case of infants. This is NOT the same as signing something to enter into a relationship. It's just grafting into an earthly institution.


0bb52e  No.2065

>>2064

yes, as a reformed theologian sproul opposed the notion of baptism bringing grace.


504567  No.2067

>>2065

Thus IT CANNOT then be the means to come into Christ. Period!


0bb52e  No.2068

>>2067

Agreed.


504567  No.2069

>>2068

Therefore it opposes the meaning of 1Peter 3:21 because "of a good conscience" in other early papyri are all trade contracts where two parties enter into a relationship with one another which entails Baptism as working like that. Sign the contract and get in. Not the same thing as the Reformed view that these are badges to assure one of a past act done.


57d0e0  No.2071

>>2043

James White never said those words


0811e9  No.2078

>>2071

That is the logical conclusion of your determinism


57d0e0  No.2094

>>2078

>I think it's the logical conclusion of Calvinism so I have the right to slander Calvinists


55a8ac  No.2097

>>2078

you're a snake


504567  No.2107

>>2094

Even Steve Hays admits it.


504567  No.2181

>>2043

Dont forget also that the statement that baptism saves through the resurrection of Jesus Christ in 3:21 holds together many expressions about transitions from life to death, from the old to the new reflected in other parts of the letter. In 1:3–10 salvation is something which the believers wait for, together with the revelation of Christ in his glory (1:7). The new birth to a living hope is based on the resurrection of Jesus Christ (1:3). Even if these expressions are not explicitly identified with baptism, they are associated with baptism as the main act in this process. Baptism is so to speak the crystallizing point for all the other ways to speak of this transition.26 It can have this function because it unites the baptised with the resurrected Christ and brings them into contact with God and the saving power of God manifested in the resurrection of Jesus Christ (1:3; 3:21). This association between baptism and resurrection is similar to that in Paul and the Pauline tradition, where baptism meant to be included “in Christ,” that is in the crucified and resurrected Christ (Rom 6:4–5, 8–11; 1 Cor 15:20–28, 29–34; Col 2:12).


942368  No.2260

>>2071

He did once with that hipster calvinist with the beard and tattoos in a discussion with a black Mormon (lel). He said something like that if God didn't decree suicide bombings then they would be meaningless and purposeless. Calvinists are basically Christian muslims with their strict determinism.




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