/christianity/ - Christian Theology

But I do

>>1461

Catholic strawman: (pic)

Catholic claim: And I will tell you that your name means little stone, and upon you as a rock I will build my church, even though I'm also the foundation.

That church will be in Rome, a place you'll never set foot. Priests for centuries will use your name in search of power over all other bishops, a position you'll never hold. Those popes will be allowed to make up new doctrine with total infallibility, something you're forbidden to do.

Reality: Peter, this confession of faith in me you've given is the stone upon which the Church will be built. The gates of hades shall not prevail against it.

>>1462

>>1463

Don't forget to mention forgeries used to bolster the papacy, like the Donation of Constantine and the Pseudo-Isidorian Decretals.

>>1463

The one hang-up I have with this one is that I'm pretty sure Peter did set foot in Rome. He says in his first epistle that he is writing from Babylon, which is often used as a sort of code-word for Rome. Can you refute that?

>>1468

In addition to this, I think it would be a stronger point to note that he first founded a church at Antioch.

In fact, the bishops of Antioch have historically claimed "succession" from Peter and Rome used to have a feast day celebrating "The Chair of Peter at Antioch".

If all it takes to be the pope is to be the successor of Peter, then surely the Papist would have difficulty explaining why Antioch never pretended to the things they claim.

>>1468

Strong's data for "Babylon"

897 Βαβυλών Babulon {bab-oo-lone'}

Meaning: Babylon = "confusion" 1) a very large and famous city, the residence of the Babylonian kings, situated on both banks of the Euphrates. Cyrus had formerly captured it, but Darius Hystaspis threw down its gates and walls, and Xerxes destroyed the temple of Belis. At length the city was reduced to almost solitude, the population having been drawn off by the neighbouring Seleucia, built on the Tigris by Seleucus Nicanor. 2) of the territory of Babylonia 3) allegorically, of Rome as the most corrupt seat of idolatry and the enemy of Christianity

Rome is only connected to Babylon in the anti-catholic sense, that Rome is the whore of Babylon

>>1467

>>1470

Great points that discredit the doctrine of the papacy. What is the best, most memorable way to instill the idea that catholics are wrong about peter, while still prioritizing brevity? The anti-Luther one is pretty clever.

>>1471

>most memorable way

Hmm. I can't think off the top of my head, but usually when you press them to provide more Scriptural evidence they grasp at straws.

I think it's also prudent to note that they're assuming verses pertaining to Peter must automatically be about the bishop or church of Rome.

Also, point to the first epistle of Peter, where he calls himself "a fellow elder" instead of saying the grand things modern popes do.

>>1473

I mean for the purpose of the meme. If you're just in a discussion you've got plenty of ammunition against the papacy.

Would it be good to push the antioch thing in the bottom of the meme somehow?

>>1474

Certainly, make a brief mention like "and the bishop of Rome will be your sole successor, despite setting up a church at Antioch first".

>>1468

Many reformers believed Peter was at Rome. Nothing about a papacy logically follows from that

>>1485

I understand that the papacy doesn't follow from him just being in Rome, but I see a lot of reformed people throwing around the meme that he wasn't ever in Rome so I was just curious where that came from.

>>1468

This is a good read: https://www.philologie.uni-bonn.de/de/personal/zwierlein/st_peter_in_rome.pdf

>>1491

It's a case of people prioritizing apologetics over theology. They realize they would cut the Roman papacy off at the knees if Rome did not have Petrine succession.

>>1538

So they're essentially lying in order to win an argument?

>>1539

It's more like cognitive dissonance than lying

How might a chart look comparing the different Christian views on government, like divine right vs rothbardian stateless vs liberal democracy

>>1712

I like it.

>>1712

Based/10

>>1416

Honestly, the text for the Eastern Orthodox should be exactly the same as the text for the Roman Catholics.

Also, "Look, here's the way out" just sounds better, makes more sense within the context of a maze analogy, and has a lot more visceral punch than "Look, this the way."

>>2300

Do eastern orthodoxers make the same claim about validity in their sacraments?

>>1404

add 'Continuing Anglicans' to Top or atleast Mid Tier

>>2312

In an extremely roundabout, double-talk way, yes. The "official" surface level position of the orthodox is that they are the one true holy apostolic church, and that the possibility of salvation can be definitely verified within them. However, they also say that they cannot speak for God's judgement for those outside of the church, and that his mercy might extend to them. In other words: "We are the one true church, and your best chance at salvation; outside of us, you're taking your chances."

If you read between the lines, at it's core, this stance is just a diplomatic softball version of the Roman Catholic stance of "extra Ecclesiam nulla salus"

If you want to be hyper accurate, it would be better to have the Eastern Orthodox text say:

"You might be saved if you believe and follow our steps. Also, if you don't get the steps from us, you're taking your chances/rolling the die/etc.

>>2321

fair enough

t. ef0441

>>1462

As a doubting evangelical, I really wish that pic is a strawman but no matter how hard I try, I cant get around it at all. And no, I dont believe the Roman Catholic claims about the papacy but that pic sounds less memey ever since I read church history.

>>2324

The charge to Peter?

>>2326

If you mean the "On this rock" as Roman Catholics typically interpret it to refer to Peter, yes. Although even if I can be kind to grant that, the other verses in Acts or Galatians wont add up at all to Peter as Pope.

At the same time, church history is just so messy I find it difficult to reconcile with the idea of an infallible church.

>>2327

Oh you're saying that you wish you could believe the Catholic claims, but it doesn't stand to scrutiny?

>>2328

More like I find both the Protestant side and Catholic sides to be flawed. Maybe I am meant to be some sort of anglican in the middle I dont know.

If only anglicanism isnt so much of a joke, otherwise I would be one

>>2329

What's your stance on justification

>>2330

On it, I would say I am close to Luther, although how I see faith is more closer to Kierkegaard, particularly how Abraham is described in Fear and Trembling. I say Luther because I think he got the best balance between foresensic and christus victor and his concept of faith has an existential feel to it.

>>2332

Does it come by faith alone?

>>2334

Yes. But faith is the resignation to Christ and the enduring trust in God's promises. Faith extends to its expression and the convictions of the believer too. This part is probably where I part ways with Luther since faith comes before love and faith is to be quite different from its expression, although the expression may be rooted in it.

>>2345

Ok, you are Protestant.

>>2347

Heh, perhaps but I am high church leaning