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For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?

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de3990  No.825270

Free will is an inherent part of the Christian worldview, but so is the all-encompassing power of God.

ITT: Let's discuss the ways these two seemingly contradictory ideas intertwine.

I've come up with the analogy of a sailor. Sailors must face the wind and waves battering their ship, all completely out of their control, and yet, they are able to go around the world, even when relying on only the captured power of the winds to move themselves. This can be likened to the relationship between God and Free will, God is like the wind and waves, he sends us gifts and challenges, cool breezes and stormy gales, we are free to respond to him as we wish, steering ourselves around the waves or falling underneath the waters. Some even are able to guide themselves solely by what the Lord sends them, the winds of God bringing them to where he wants them to be.

Does anyone have any thoughts or criticism?

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05937b  No.825271

>>825270

The thing I struggle most with when thinking about these concepts is God's relationship to time. If God knows the future, then the Calvinists are right, everything is preordained, we have no free will, and indeed, God Himself may not even have free will. If God does not know the future then that leaves His omnipotence in doubt. The only way to square this, as far as I can tell is to ascribe to God a humanlike intellect that gives Him perfect knowledge of all possibilities, but imperfect awareness of which one is happening at a given time, but even this seems unsatisfying

For other matters, I generally think that your description of God as the one who sets the stage makes sense.

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90faeb  No.825273

File: b6ada244de3decd⋯.jpg (151.54 KB, 855x577, 855:577, Detail-of-Vermeers-The-Art….jpg)

>>825271

That's a complicated problem. The thing is that God is eternal, He's beyond time, He doesn't give two flying figs about time. It's not that He's now, always was and always will be. He is, simultaneously, in the present, the past and the future. Time is a limitation that we worldly creatures have, but it doesn't affect God. Angels are also beyond time.

So it's not so much that He can see and know the future, but that you see your choices as separated by time.

Another problem is that we usually see God as an engineer, and I think it's often better to think of Him as an artist or an artisan.

Think of a musician composing a tune. He has a clear idea of what he want's to make, and sometimes the notes seem to just fall into place, creating a beautiful melody. Others, the notes never quite fit, are never fully harmonic. We are the notes, choosing to sound in according to God's melody or choosing to be discordant, noticeable, and sound on our own.

Or think of a painter, creating a beautiful painting. Sometimes the brush strokes fuse together, creating a greater shape. Others, some strokes decide to go on their own, not quite taking the position and shape needed of them, making that eye or hand in the painting seem oddly off.

God is not the engineer, He's the Creator, involved in a creative process. If He were to measure everything with a ruler, draw with a compass and a set square on blue paper, then, indeed, there wouldn't be free will. But in His creation there's not just logic and technical prowess, there's also infinite creativity.

The key to free will is probably in understanding God's relationship with His creation, which in turn would require to understand God which is impossible. However we can get a partial understanding of it. Again, it's a complicated problem, and I struggle with it a lot.

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0394b5  No.825303

>>825271

Cuz quantum chromodynamics. "Time" isn't the one dimensional certainty that you think it is. We don't live in a mechanical universe. Sometimes reality is determined by the observer.

And God, like the creation of the universe and the quantum mechanical probability distribution, is supernatural. And here you are putting limits on the finger of the Almighty God who created this universe and moves each and every sub atomic particle to not only make you, but to make your food and the air you breathe.

And we're finding out that particles literally are nothing, just things that interact.

It's awesome. Stop thinking a tiny human brain can comprehend and second guess this God. Yes, you have free will. Yes, we live in time but we don't fully understand it. God gave us the religion, stop second guessing God's intent and get with the belief.

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05937b  No.825329

>>825303

I don't claim to understand these things but therein lies the problem. Seems to me that in order to know if free will exists and what nature it has if so, you need to have a thorough understanding of both God and time, which is impossible

I personally believe in free will, but my reasoning for doing so is shallow.

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0394b5  No.825337

>>825329

The Catholic religion is what God told you to believe. Trying to second guess God… what's that about? Just believe it, live it and don't worry about it.

Look as an engineer, I write work instructions for techs to implement. My worst nightmare is when a tech second guesses me and has no background to understand the reason why I engineered it like that. Same thing with Religion: God gave it to us, told us to believe it, and by God I will!

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05937b  No.825358

>>825337

I'm not second guessing anything, I'm just trying to understand some abstract concept that I guess can't really be understood. I guess my own reasoning does have to be enough

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9616b6  No.825367

>>825270

Catechism of the Catholic Church

600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of "predestination", he includes in it each person's free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.

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