/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>812362

Don't know but I hope it changes back soon, maybe what could happen now is it changes into a middle-ground or balance between TLM and the Novus Ordo's ideas it 'got correct'? That would be better than nothing for now atleast if it could happen.

>>812362

The NO will, at this rate, completely vanish and get into the annals of history as that weird-ass cheap rite invented by the modernists to appeal to the masses.

Speaking for my country, NO parishes are losing members each year, with the median age of the parishioners being 55+.

With this in mind it's almost a certainty that NO parishes will be completely empty in 20 years.

>>812377

What about in the case of Australia?

>>812377

Aside I think Islam also played a role in the Protestant Reformation which the NO was later influenced by in some aspects such as Iconoclasm.

>>812377

God forbid that Christ's church appeal to the masses. Surely Jesus died only for the people you personally like, right?

>>812380

>What about in the case of Australia?

What about it?

I mean, never been there, wouldn't know how it's there.

>>812381

>Aside I think Islam also played a role in the Protestant Reformation which the NO was later influenced by in some aspects such as Iconoclasm.

Bit far-fetched though.

>>812382

>God forbid that Christ's church appeal to the masses. Surely Jesus died only for the people you personally like, right?

What are you on about?

The statistics don't lie; church attendance is dropping.

I've been to a couple of NO parishes over the years and they all consisted of almost only 55+ people.

The only exception I know is this Italian community parish which seems to have a huge attendance and even two liturgy celebrations on sunday.

Don't get your hopes up though, most of those are cultural/cafetaria catholics as with most Italian diasporas I guess.

Meanwhile younger folk like me are craving tradition and sacristy thus flocking to the Tridentine Rite.

The future of the church lies within the small yet growing parishes of Tridentine Rite masses.

A year or so ago a big, old neo-roman church was sold to the FSSP and is now up and thriving.

Few weeks back I heard from someone that the FSSP could not get rid of all their new priests with those growing number of vocations that they're planning to open a new parish in the same country.

>posts video of X being done well being juxtaposed with Y being done poorly

>"Why is Y so shit?"

What a silly way to argue.

>>812389

I have to agree, the mass shown in the video is not the Novus Ordo Missae that Paul VI wanted - for a starter, he didn't even intent to replace the old rite. The NO has it's place as a more accessible kind of mass, using local language to teach the people the Word of the Lord and make them participate more in the mass, which is at the end of the day a way to live religion in community. That being said, the example in the video is nothing short of an aberration; it's a show, not a reunion with God. I don't want to be offensive, but I can only describe it as "it reeks of Americanism". In my opinion, the NO has reasons for existing but needs more more strict rules and guidelines. And the most important and solemn masses should follow the old rite.

>>812389

Sure, most Novus Ordo celebrations aren't that egregious, but it was crafted to be less Catholic… "We must strip from our Catholic prayers and from the Catholic liturgy everything which can be the shadow of a stumbling block for our separated brethren that is for the Prostestants" (Bugnini). Paul VI seemed to regret creating the Novus Ordo and Benedict XVI said that irreverent worship/casual attitude towards the Eucharist is a huge part of the crisis in the Chruch today. Communion in the hand being the norm has eroded real faith in the true presence of our Lord in the host. (And go ahead and check how many Catholics believe it in the Novus Ordo vs TLM.)

>>812400

If you read the Council of Trent, and the theology surrounding the Mass, the Novus Ordo (as per the OFFICIAL rubrics propagated with it in 1970) represents a radical departure from the Council of Trent, which we know is infallible, and Quo Primum. It's a product of man, of the radical ecumenicists in the Church, whereas the TLM grew from the Mass celebrated by Jesus Himself.

>>812388

See here: https://8ch.net/christian/res/812371.html

>>812362

>>812377

Are there any actual stats on this?

>>812362

Yes it's not even close. Anyone who goes to a well performed Latin Mass will see the great contrast in not only the reverence but the beauty of the mass. That is, assuming that their modernist brainwashing hasn't gotten so far that reverence isn't even a factor when looking to offer sacrifice to the Lord.

>>812362

Novus Ordo won't disappear simply the attitude of the celebrant and laity will change for the better if there is any hope to be found in the younger generations of believers.

>>812425

>Are there any actual stats on this?

The stats that are known is the declining church attendance, which is 99% Novus Ordo.

No official stats on Tridentine Rite parishes but I've read some article about how it's a bit """problematic""" on how the youth is attracted to tradition (can't remember the source though).

The only thing I know and that's because it's plain to see is that both SSPX and FSSP are growing, places like this are brimmed with traditionalists looking for a Tridentine Rite and people converting to orthodox exactly because of travesties like the current Novus Ordo.

Tell me this, if you were looking for something more and deeper in life, and you entered your average Novus Ordo rite parish; almost all old people (dying out attendance), a priest who doesn't know or doesn't care, and everybody in there affirming the life you already lead as being good enough to go to heaven.

I know that there are decent priests in certain Novus Ordo parishes but they are hard to find these days, I've already seen too many abominations to give these parishes another chance.

>>812380

all churches are NO

>>812487

There must be a few Tridentine Rite parishes, right?

>>812485

>I know that there are decent priests in certain Novus Ordo parishes but they are hard to find these days, I've already seen too many abominations to give these parishes another chance.

I'm aware that there are many bad Novus Ordo parishes in the world. I've only ever seen one in real life though, and it was a government-run chapel. Maybe I've just been lucky, but most of the NO parishes I've been to have been pretty good, with priests that care and plenty of young people in the pews. That's why I'm interested in the stats, to try and know objectively whether my personal experiences represent reality as a whole.

>>812595

>Maybe I've just been lucky, but most of the NO parishes I've been to have been pretty good, with priests that care and plenty of young people in the pews. That's why I'm interested in the stats, to try and know objectively whether my personal experiences represent reality as a whole.

This also differs from country to country, but I can assure you that it's abysmal where I live and also in a lot of other places.

>>812590

Nope. There are no parishes anywhere that default to the Extraordinary form. It's called the Novus Ordo's official name is "ordinary form" after all.

>>812603

I don't know if you even checked but here you go.

http://lmsaus.org/

Good Lord this is embarrassing.

Become Eastern Catholic guys if you don't want the butchering of the mass that is Novus Ordo, if Tridentine or Latin High Mass aren't available.

>>812708

I can support this, but do know that Eastern catholic churches are also ethnic clubs most of the time.

Sure they're legit and comfy, but one should not be surprised if he does not understand what parishioners are saying at the coffee table.

>>812362

see

>>812457

He has it pretty much nailed. It won't disappear because it's what Catholics grew up with and won't disappear unless the Church itself does something with it. The problems often cited with the Novus Ordo by traditionalists don't exist in parishes with pious priests and laity that understand what they're taking part in. The Church has been failed by the older generation, who failed to properly catechize their children and hold their clergy to greater standards of piety. Nobody cares to do things right because they don't understand. This is why so many kids apostatize when they go to university - not because of the Novus Ordo itself or what they learn at university.

The Pope Emeritus said that the Church will get smaller and holier. Here we have hope that things will turn around. Those of the younger generation who stay Catholic, and not just those who become traditionalists and isolate themselves within those communities, are becoming more and more deliberate about being Catholic. Those who go to seminary have a good reason to be there. More and more, Novus Ordo masses are being done ad orientem. More and more, Latin is being reintegrated into Novus Ordo through hymns and certain mass parts being switched back.

Those who hide in the traditionalist communities often preach doom and gloom, but it's because they never look out their window. It's getting better as we speak.

>>812381

Why bring in Islam? Luther took books out of the bible because the Jews didn't like them (literally, he was following the masoretic text for some reason)

>>812388

>younger folk like me are craving tradition

Why are you craving something you've literally never had? That doesn't make any sense. All I see in younger folks "craving tradition" are just doing the usual "f*ck you" to your parents by turning your nose up at the Church they brought you to. You're not craving tradition, you're simply rebelling against your parents.

>>812865

>Do you think that I have come to bring peace to the earth? No, I tell you, but division. From now on, five in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three. They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.

>>812865

My mother is a lapsed catholic and my father a non-practicing evangelical.

I never went to church except for Christmas years ago, and tradition is not just something from days past, it's a structure and mindset of one's life.

Tradition is a sign of integrity, something the catholic church has a severe shortage in these days.

>>812885

The fact that it's so easy to find TLM kinda proves you wrong.

>>812865

Pure boomer posting lel. Piss off grandpa, your generation literally destroyed everything good in the world and we're bringing it back whether you like it or not.

>>812865

I crave the tradition I've never experienced for the same reason I crave the community I've never experienced when I see old movies where people greet their neighbors by name and look up and smile when they see strangers on the street. I am lonely and alienated and isolated and I want to help rebuild the broken shards of society into something better.

>>812899

>The fact that it's so easy to find TLM kinda proves you wrong.

Easy to find != lot of it available.

You're really going out of your way here.

Honestly, how much are the neo-catechumens paying you?

>>812899

Maybe in the US, but it's really hard in other countries.

>>812595

Is your NO versus populum? Do they chant the Gospel? Is there much Latin? Do people take communion on the tongue? EMHCs? No matter what, a "good" NO is still way worse than a fumbling Tridentine Mass. There's simply no comparison and those who deny it are deluding themselves.

this entire false dichotomy of novus ordo vs TLM is satanic

Christ is present at both; Christ's Church has vouch-safed both. If you cannot accept this, the problem is not with Christ, but with you.

>>813433

>Christ is present at both

Depends at which parish you go to.

Even then, when satanists take the Eucharist to use in their satanic masses, He's also present there.

Does that mean it's reverend and the right place for the Eucharist to be?

>>813443

Even demons believe and tremble.

>Depends at which parish you go to.

The Lord is at the consecration of every authentic apostolic priest.

>>813508

So you're seriously going to imply that, at a true black mass, done by an apostate priest, (where a baby is cannibalized) is not offensive to our Lord, because demons fear Him?

>>813508

>Satanic masses are ok

Wew lad.

>The Lord is at the consecration of every authentic apostolic priest.

Not if the consecration rite or the altar is invalid, which is sadly ever more frequent these days in Novus Ordo.

>>812362

Vernacular masses that have a form similar to high church protestant masses make catholicism accessable to converts, so i cannot see it being abolished until the church ends the republican occupation of the papal states and gets back on the horse.