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For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?

File: d25acfb7d344ffd⋯.jpg (127.71 KB, 800x1200, 2:3, AbsolutePeak.jpg)

4108c0  No.811302

So, I've been relapsing back into Catholicism, I have confessed my sins, have been going to Church and although I still have not prayed the rosary daily I have nonetheless been praying every single day and have ask Our Lady to fill my days with more and more prayer for the souls that need it.

Anyway, since it has been well over a decade that I had devoted myself spiritually, I had to do some studying so I've read St. Pius X's catechism and all was fine and swell. I've also been immersing myself in the stories and lives of the saints to gain wisdom and inspiration and, of course, I have been reading the Bible (although not as diligently as I might wish). Probably my biggest mistake so far is being too into TradTube while ignoring the fundamentals, and because of this I went to good old vatican.va to read more. I've started reading their catechism, which I imagine is the most recent and correct (?) one, and somewhere along the way I read this:

>841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

I'm apologise for the silly question, but how can this be a dogma of the Church? Wouldn't this mean that Islam is the "true" religion since it supposed mission is to correct the "errors" of the Old and New Testaments? How can this possibly be? And also, regarding catechisms in general, was the one I read originally somehow invalidated by this one?

Thank kindly you for your answers and for putting up with my ignorance of the subject, brothers.

____________________________
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d30177  No.811313

>>811302

When I first became Catholic catholic.com was able to answer many of my questions, including this one.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/the-catechism-on-islam

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65236c  No.811319

Look, I'm not a Catholic but if the Catholics answer first it will be a shitshow.

First, dogma (that is, doctrine necessary to believe for salvation) comes with anathemas. Not every single theological statement is dogmatic. I am pretty sure that the Catholic Church doesn't anathematize those who do not believe that "the plan of salvation etc.", even if the document was made for an ecumenical council.

Second, the Catechism of the Catholic Church is itself normative but not infallible. It is just one modern catechism that has official recognition by the Vatican. For a catechism that was actually made with ecumenical authority, see the Roman Catechism, issued at the Council of Trent.

Third, what the quote in question means is that the plan of salvation includes Muslims too. And so? The plan of salvation includes everyone. Jesus died for all and God wills that all be saved. Furthermore, this section of the catechism addresses "The Church and non-Christians". It says that the Jews are related to the Church, even if they are outside of it, because they have already begun to respond to divine revelation (as they recognize a lot of Biblical books to be inspired) and they look forward to Christ, although they are in error and think His first advent hasn't come yet. Muslims are also related to the Church because they are monotheists and look forward to Christ's second coming too (but, again, while being in error). Everyone else is related to the Church too, by virtue of descending from Adam. How does the section conclude?

>To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood.

Don't get me wrong, I do think this is problematic (because of the claim that Muslims worship God and not the devil, and also because of the unecessary reference to Jews and Muslims when the conclusion remains that they need salvation through the Church anyway), but you're reading the text far more polemically than you should.

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4108c0  No.811322

>>811313

>They “profess to hold the faith of Abraham.” The operative word here is “profess”—they claim to hold the faith of Abraham. In reality, their faith is an imperfect version of the faith that comes from Abraham, but they are trying to follow in the footsteps of Abraham, and the Council gives them credit for that.

This was certainly helpful. It is not the Roman Catholic Church who decides who is saved and who is not and the Good Lord can make Catholics out of little peddles if He so willed. There is a plan of salvation for everyone, and if the muzzies are to be saved despite having been tricked into think that theirs is the faith of Abraham then, like Pope Francis says, who am I to judge?

>>811319

>but you're reading the text far more polemically than you should.

I think you're right. I shouldn't have made a thread about this even I find it scandalous that there is a catechism that states in no uncertain terms that the muzzies worship the God of Abraham. I apologise, I was too quick to make this thread, but I was triggered hard when I read it.

My question has been answered to my satisfaction. I appreciate the kindness and the patience, brothers. Have a nice weekend and God bless you.

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4c48d8  No.811944

Not a Catholic, but I have a question about the Catechism. I once had a teacher who claimed the Catechism was used by the Catholic Church to indoctrinate youth; that children learned it during their most formative years as a form of brainwashing. They claimed it was a list of canned answers and that they knew someone who "did their own research and gave the actual theologically correct answers instead and was failed as a result".

I don't think this teacher is right, I just want to know how Catholics would argue against it.

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1e7b18  No.811949

>>811944

>children are indoctrinated with the catechism

I wish. The fact that so many cradle Catholics don't understand or even know about most of Catholic doctrine should be sufficient to tell you this is not true.

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16f5b9  No.811972

File: a8e03ffc3b009d4⋯.png (49.03 KB, 211x346, 211:346, ClipboardImage.png)

>>811302

Try reading a book called YOUCAT, if it's available in your language. It's partly "Catechism for dummies young people" and also answers other questions about Christian faith. It's like one huge Cath FAQ.

Here's a rough translation of this part:

<136 How does the Chrurch see other religions?

>The Chrurch repspects everything that is good about other Religions, and respects freedom of religion. Know however that Jesus Christ is the only true savior of all mankind. He alone is "the way and the truth and the life. John 14:6"

Then it goes into a longer explanation on how that and in which way Christians are related to both Jews and Muslims. (Monotheism, Abraham)

However, it is then made clear once again that everyone who knows Jesus Christ but refuses to accept him as his Lord and Saviour will never find the way to Salvation.

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4344ef  No.811983

>>811944

>I once had a teacher who claimed the Catechism was used by the Catholic Church to indoctrinate youth

If this was a school teacher then its hilarious that an active member of the government propaganda program against children would say that. Public school teachers entire purpose is to indoctrinate children during their formative years. The claim is even more ridiculous since they probably only have had interaction with post vatican 2 catholics. As someone who grew up catholic and was surrounded by them most were given a very limited teaching of catechism past the basics of going through the sacraments. The nature of the catholic church since the 60s is why there are so many cafeteria and ex catholics.

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6134ca  No.811994

>>811944

>I once had a teacher who claimed the Catechism was used by the Catholic Church to indoctrinate youth; that children learned it during their most formative years as a form of brainwashing

That's what the job of school teachers is, except the material they use is amoral. If you exercise independent thought as a student in a public school, you are typically punished (unless your "independent thought" happens to align with school teachings). You do what the teacher says, even if you know 2 + 2 = 3 is untrue, or you fail.

>They claimed it was a list of canned answers and that they knew someone who "did their own research and gave the actual theologically correct answers instead and was failed as a result"

Every school teacher has a list of canned answers, which is why substitute teachers have no trouble filling in for teachers. I remember many, MANY occasions in school where the teacher made a mistake in one of their answers, the students all got the right answer, and the teacher sooner failed all the students than re-examine their own work.

>I just want to know how Catholics would argue against it

It sounds to me like that teacher is projecting their own system's faults onto Catholic schools, and let's be honest in saying that those who scream the loudest about the "evils of Catholicism" are the ones who don't know any Catholics, have never stepped foot into a Catholic Church or Catholic school, and haven't actually researched Catholicism.

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ac55d8  No.812009

File: 29443796d4e1933⋯.jpg (287.72 KB, 1000x700, 10:7, 1000x700-Palermo-Martorana….jpg)

>>811302

>Anyway, since it has been well over a decade that I had devoted myself spiritually, I had to do some studying so I've read St. Pius X's catechism and all was fine and swell.

Including this part?

>12 Q. Who are infidels?

>A. Infidels are those who have not been baptised and do not believe in Jesus Christ, because they either believe in and worship false gods as idolaters do, or though admitting one true God, they do not believe in the Messiah, neither as already come in the Person of Jesus Christ, nor as to come; for instance, Mohammedans and the like.

(Sidenote: when reading this catechism, be aware that there have been a lot of changes in the canon law amde since it was written. Canon law is the body of human, changeable laws that the Church uses to govern itself and its members. Even though they are human and changeable, we must still obey them, because the Church has God-given authority in over its faithful in the matters canon law covers - just like parents have genuine God-given authority over their children or secular governments have over the citizens of their countries, which authority means that they can create human and changeable, but still morally binding, laws and obligations over those people who are under their authority. Since a big part of the canon law changed, many laws that were to be obeyed by Catholics in 1908, and might be mentioned as such in St. Pius X Catechism, don't apply anymore.)

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ac55d8  No.812010

File: 821ee7d122e9dd7⋯.jpg (215.63 KB, 850x870, 85:87, 1215-1230 mosaics venice s….jpg)

>>811302

(continued)

>Probably my biggest mistake so far is being too into TradTube while ignoring the fundamentals

A lot of schismatic Traditionalist (of course, there is a lot of Traditionalists in right standing with the Church - but there is a lot of Schismatics too, and they are very loud) arguments rely on quotes from old papal or council documents cherrypicked from the context explaining their meaning, or quotes using precise, specialist terminology which might be misunderstood by the reader, and so on. To know why their arguments are false, you have to be aware in detail of historical context, theology of the Church and precise terminology relating to this or that papal document, or at least know good sources describing it. For this reason, I would avoid such people for time being, and in the meantime, if you want good traditional Catholic content, read pre-Vatican II encyclopedias, catechisms, saints' writings, etc., because they tend to explain doctrine in its whole (unlike papal or council documents, which often concentrate on the particular aspects of some teaching which required special attention at the time, and not the whole teaching), as well as stuff written by modern Traditionalists, although in that latter case, always take what you read with a very heavy grain of salt, remember Christ's promise to protect the Church and check their sources and their context - it's very easy to fall into schism here, because the schism in question presents itself as being more virtuous, closer to the pre-Vatican II Church, schismatics are almost always hardcore reactionary (which attracts the /pol/ audience), and because many Catholics, including priests and bishops, indeed are lukewarm and have no respect for both doctrine and liturgy (or, in some cases, are falsely presented as such by schismatics), especially if you live in countries like USA, Germany, etc., because when you lack necessary historical/theological knowledge their arguments may indeed look convincing, and also because of common tendency of humans to fall into pride, lazyness, cowardice, lack of faith (Christ promised to protect His Church, and no matter how bad things were at times, like e.g. during the Arian crisis of the 4th century, He was always - in the end - triumphant, but you can see lots of people who, during our present day crisis, can't take themselves to really trust this, and so at some point they break, and leave the Church), desire to be special, and other sins. Be careful and again, don't trust everything a post-Vatican II Traditionalist may say simply because he looks virtuous and gives you a bunch of quotes, be sceptical. I greatly recommend "Catholic Encyclopedia", which is old enough (published 1907-1912) to be in public domain and therefore is freely available on the Internet, and contains really indepth, traditional analysis and description of all things Catholic from various angles (although keep in mind that it's over 100 year old, so it can be outdated as relates to things like biology, political geography, canon law, etc.).

>I'm apologise for the silly question, but how can this be a dogma of the Church?

(Another sidenote: it's not dogma. Dogma isn't just any Church teaching, it has a narrow and specific meaning: "doctrine taught by the Church to be believed by all the faithful as part of divine revelation", as defined in Fr. John Hardon's "Catholic Dictionary". I know what you meant, but it's good to know the proper terminology to avoid errors later.)

>Wouldn't this mean that Islam is the "true" religion since it supposed mission is to correct the "errors" of the Old and New Testaments?

Absolutely not. Protestants too worship our God, but this doesn't mean their doctrine is correct. Just because you got one thing right doesn't mean that you got other things right too. We have the entire truth, but other religions may know and recognise some parts of this truth, even when they don't know it in entirety. Muslims do get some things right - e.g. that there is God and He must be worshipped - but they get a lot of things wrong too. And every human is involved in the plan of salvation, even if they don't in the end accept God and end up damned.

>And also, regarding catechisms in general, was the one I read originally somehow invalidated by this one?

No. A catechism is just a book to help you know the basics of faith, there have been a lot of them written throughout the ages by various people for various audiences - although the world changed a lot since the publication of St. Pius X Catechism, there are new issues we have to deal with, there are also similar issues but in different circumstances requiring different approach, so keep that in mind.

>Thank kindly you for your answers and for putting up with my ignorance of the subject, brothers.

God bless you.

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aa4b8c  No.812275

>>811972

YouCat is modernist trash and because of where we are (with there being an overall lack in liberal Catholic boomers), I am going to guess you're false flagging as a Catholic to steer this guy away from the Church.

>>811302

I really don't think "the plan of salvation" is meant to mean "among those who will go to Heaven". The Catechism also teaches that all are called into the Catholic Church, and tradition teaches us that outside the Church there is no salvation. Now there's some debate on what exactly that one means, but most agree that it at least means in part that God's grace enters the world through the Church. The sacraments are the most significant "vehicles" of grace, but others are sacramentals (including prayers), worship, all kinds of things that are part of being a Christian. Going back to the Islam thing, them acknowledging a monotheistic Creator (and above that, the God of Abraham) opens up avenues for evangelization not available for people like Atheists, Buddhists, or Hindus.

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fa607b  No.812339

>>811302

A thing lots of moderns do is just use vauge langauge to be nice

>The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator

This literally doesn't mean anything, this doesn't mean Muslims go to heaven. Like they say a ton without actually saying anything, that seems to be the general thing behind ecumenism.

You go to heaven if you are in a state of Grace, that's it.

'In the Great Deluge in the days of Noah, nearly all mankind perished, eight persons alone being saved in the Ark. In our days a deluge, not of water but of sins, continually inundates the earth, and out of this deluge very few escape. Scarcely anyone is saved.'

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori, Doctor of the Church

However we don't evangelize anymore so vaguely acting like other people are saved absolves us of that guilt.

Saints maintain most CATHOLICS go to hell, and obviously Catholics have a better chance then non-catholics. To say the least the odds are pretty bleak for them. However because they are alive they can repent and ask God for mercy so you can vaugely say they are in the plan of salvation, but that doesn't mean more then 5 single individuals might go to heaven.

'Woe to you who command others! If so many are damned by your fault, what will happen to you? If few out of those who are first in the Church of God are saved, what will happen to you? Take all states, both sexes, every condition: husbands, wives, widows, young women, young men, soldiers, merchants, craftsmen, rich and poor, noble and plebian. What are we to say about all these people who are living so badly? The following narrative from Saint Vincent Ferrer will show you what you may think about it. He relates that an archdeacon in Lyons gave up his charge and retreated into a desert place to do penance, and that he died the same day and hour as Saint Bernard. After his death, he appeared to his bishop and said to him, "Know, Monsignor, that at the very hour I passed away, thirty-three thousand people also died. Out of this number, Bernard and myself went up to heaven without delay, three went to purgatory, and all the others fell into Hell."'

St. Leonard of Port Maurice

'The number of the elect is so small - so small - that were we to know how small it is, we should faint away with grief. The number of the elect is so small that were God to assemble them together, He would cry to them, as He did of old, by the mouth of His prophet, "Gather yourselves together, one by one" - one from this province, one from that kingdom.'

St. Louis Marie de Montfort

And another point dogma means something VERY specific, the catechism is not in any way magisterial.

http://jimmyakin.com/dogma-doctrine-and-theology-what-are-they

If you want to read on that.

But basically a bunch of people who were educated in the 60s/70s being vauge to be nice because we've totally stopped evangelizing and because of that probably everyone whose died since the 60s/70s has gone to hell.

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fa607b  No.812340

>>812339

Nearly everyone, to be clear not literally everyone

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