/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

Hebrews 11:5-6

>By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Furthermore Baptism is necessary for salvation. We are all born with the inherited consequences of Adam's sin and only Baptism, Chrismatio, and Communion can give us salvation. And none of the sacraments can be received without faith.

t. Orthodox, since I know Protestats and Catholics don't believe this

>>775427

no there was something about the unbelieving. not that part what you posted but different.

Every mention of unbelief I can find:

Romans 3:1-6

>What advantage then has the Jew, or what is the profit of circumcision? Much in every way! Chiefly because to them were committed the oracles of God. For what if some did not believe? Will their unbelief make the faithfulness of God without effect? Certainly not! Indeed, let God be true but every man a liar. As it is written: “That You may be justified in Your words, and may overcome when You are judged.” But if our unrighteousness demonstrates the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unjust who inflicts wrath? (I speak as a man.) Certainly not! For then how will God judge the world?

Romans 4:16-22

>Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

Romans 11:19-24

>You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

1 Corinthians 6:1-6

>Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? If then you have judgments concerning things pertaining to this life, do you appoint those who are least esteemed by the church to judge? I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren? But brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers!

1 Corinthians 7:12-16

>But to the rest I, not the Lord, say: If any brother has a wife who does not believe, and she is willing to live with him, let him not divorce her. And a woman who has a husband who does not believe, if he is willing to live with her, let her not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband; otherwise your children would be unclean, but now they are holy. But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace. For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?

1 Corinthians 14:22-25

>Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe. Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind? But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all. And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God is truly among you.

2 Corinthians 6:14-18

>Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will dwell in them and walk among them. I will be their God, and they shall be My people.” Therefore “Come out from among them and be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, and I will receive you. I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.”

1 Timothy 1:12-17

>And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry, although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus. This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief. However, for this reason I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show all longsuffering, as a pattern to those who are going to believe on Him for everlasting life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

1 Timothy 5:3-8

>Honor widows who are really widows. But if any widow has children or grandchildren, let them first learn to show piety at home and to repay their parents; for this is good and acceptable before God. Now she who is really a widow, and left alone, trusts in God and continues in supplications and prayers night and day. But she who lives in pleasure is dead while she lives. And these things command, that they may be blameless. But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Titus 1:10-16

>For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole households, teaching things which they ought not, for the sake of dishonest gain. One of them, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth. To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

Hebrews 3:7-19

>Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: “Today, if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of trial in the wilderness, where your fathers tested Me, tried Me, and saw My works forty years. Therefore I was angry with that generation, and said, ‘They always go astray in their heart, and they have not known My ways.’ So I swore in My wrath, ‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ” Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, while it is said: “Today, if you will hear His voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

>For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses? Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

>>775429

>>775430

thx

>>775427

> I know Protestats and Catholics don't believe this

Catholic here. We obviously believe in the necessity of faith and the sacraments with the sacraments serving as an extension/expression of faith based on biblical practices in the NT… just before sola fide gets thrown out like every time we talk about these sorts of things We just don't think that we as earthly sinners are in a position to say with certainty who goes to heaven or hell. It's a point of humility, not lack of belief.

If we didn't believe in the necessity of faith and the sacraments, why would we practice either?

>>775434

>Catholic here. We obviously believe in the necessity of faith and the sacraments

A Catholic told me in another thread that it is not necessary for the one being baptized to have faith.

>>775439

What do you mean? Faith is a very important part of the process.

>>775443

See the discussion there: >>774405

>>775439

He's wrong. You can be baptized and lose faith later on, but if you have faith you are to be baptized. Hence why we both baptize and anoint adult converts after catechism if they weren't baptized as children.

I don't know who told you otherwise, but they need to read up on this stuff.

>>775446

I am talking about faith being necessary on the part of the one being baptized, such as that baptizing someone who doesn't have faith makes the baptism invalid. What I was told is that for Catholics, this is true for Communion, but not for Baptism, which is why Communion is kept for when someone reaches an age of reason.

>>775450

>I am talking about faith being necessary on the part of the one being baptized

As far as I knew Orthodox practiced infant baptism still. Has this changed? Or was my initial source wrong?…

Either way if a parent fulfills their duty to "bring their children up in the way of the lord" the child should be of faith. As far as adults go, can't think of a case where a person who lacks faith would be baptized. But the point is that you can stray from the promises of your baptism to the point that it's meaningless, yes. I'm not sure if their is a stance on whether or not you suddenly regain original sin or not, but your fate is the same either way… Actually according to St. Peter, your fate is worse if you have been baptized and sin than if you were never part of the faith at all.

The communion info is accurate to my understanding though.

>>775458

Did you simply not click on what I sent?

From an Orthodox POV: Baptism is necessary for salvation, and one must have faith to receive it. If one does not have the mental capacities to have faith, their godparents intercede with their own faith and take on the mission to make sure the person's future faith will be in line with their engagement.

Likewise for Chrismation.

Likewise for Communion.

>Either way if a parent fulfills their duty to "bring their children up in the way of the lord" the child should be of faith.

But why doesn't the same apply to Communion?

>>775458

From what I know, the responsibility of nurturing a child's faith fall onto the parents and godparents in Catholicism; the process of growing this faith as you mature and reach levels of higher understanding (as several mysteries in the church are difficult to grasp, especially for the young) is part of the reason why age of reason and confirmation were conceived to 'gate' aspects of the teachings of the church.

The anointing process in baptism for both children and adults acts as a means of saving you from original sin; all sins thereafter are a product of you falling short, as it tends to happen.

>>775473

>>775471

>Did you simply not click on what I sent?

Didn't notice a link, sorry.

>From an Orthodox POV: Baptism is necessary for salvation, and one must have faith to receive it. If one does not have the mental capacities to have faith, their godparents intercede with their own faith and take on the mission to make sure the person's future faith will be in line with their engagement.

We do the same thing generally, only both the Godparents and Parents take on responsibility.

>>775473

>The anointing process in baptism for both children and adults acts as a means of saving you from original sin; all sins thereafter are a product of you falling short, as it tends to happen.

I misspoke. I was referring to confirmation (since adults who go through RCIA are typically baptized and confirmed on the same day from my experience).

>>775434

>We just don't think that we as earthly sinners are in a position to say with certainty who goes to heaven or hell. It's a point of humility, not lack of belief.

Just want to chim in here and say that when we say you are justified by faith alone we are not being arrogant. The hymn rock of ages puts it quite well by saying "nothing in my hand I bring simply to thy cross I cling". It's not a matter of being arrogant or not but rather one of trust that Christ did die and was raised up for our sins and because of this we can trust him and be assured of our salvation. The knowledge of knowing about our place in heaven gives us peace and joy.

We are putting our full trust in God's work on the cross.

>>775439

Catholic here.

I'd say that first come the Spirit and later the physical sacrament. The flesh is nothing without Spirit so a sacrament without faith it's empty. But if you REALLY have faith, is asking too much to be baptized or confirmed or else? I'd say no. Baptizing a baby is a way of welcoming a new member in the Christian community but It doesn't guarantee you salvation. That's my non canonical opinion.

OP here, i meant Revelation 21:8

>>776112

>Revelation 21:8

Aah. No wonder I couldn't find it. I assume you got it confused with 1 Corinthians 6:9-10