/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>772823

My non-clergy speculation on this is yes, because if you are infertile and want children, it's probably the better Christian thing to do to adopt one of the many children who do not have parents than to go out of the way to reject that option in favor of a workaround that involves your own seed/womb interacting with one not of your wife/husband.

But I'm not an authority on the matter. That said, I don't know if surrogacy (having a genetically whole zygote put into your womb) would count.

>>772830

Nice.

>>772830

what about a real source from scripture?

>>772832

Thou shalt not commit adultery

Two shall become one flesh

>>772830

That's winnie the pooh stupid. How does the catholic clergy come up with this shit? According to them, virgins can commit adultery.

>antiCatholics trying to defend adultery

Just like what you protscum did with divorce

>>772832

they didn't exactly have sperm banks and invitro back in the day, you know

>>772849

Please define the following terms: Adultery, Sex, Virginity.

>>772849

>you protscum

Funny, I don’t remember ever defending divorce.

>>772878

Please explain why surrogate you believe surrogate pregnancies are bad.

>>772892

When artificial wombs are invented, would you have no problems regarding their use?

>>772901

>unnatural and agianst what God intended

How do you determine whether something is unnatural or against what God intended?

>>772902

Revelation and Natural Theology.

>>772904

How do artificial wombs go against those?

>>772907

>It's how God intends for us to make babies and healthy families

How do you know this? Sex was the only way for conception to happen for most of human history, until recently, both of us agree on that, but what you're doing is going further than that and describing God's preferences. Is there anything in scripture that prohibits invitro fertilization?

I also want to clarify another point, I made this post>>772899. I'm not sure if artificial wombs will ever be invented or widely used.

>>772911

Also, I was referring to cases of Invitro Feritilization when NO zygotes are destroyed.

>>772823

Isaac, not Ishmael, okay?

>>772829

>it's probably the better Christian thing to do to adopt

Be fruitful an multiply, not adopt the cast-offs of other people.

Having babies is always the better choice. Adoption is for bleeding heart snobs who hate themselves.

>>772878

>One has to masturbate in order to donate the sperm to the spank-bank. So thats a sin right there in it's own right.

Now this is where I catch you and teear you to pieces.

Masturbation is sinful exactly because the seed is being wasted, but in this case the seed isn't being wasted, it's put to it's intended purpose, which is a good thing.

When Onan masturbated he sinned because he came outside of the woman, and that is why it was considered a sinful act, not because of the masturbatory act in and of itself. This is actually in scripture, look it up.

If I'm a gay man with a lesbian fiancé, am I going against God's will by marrying her for simply wanting to have kids?

We don't love each other, at least not in the sense you'd expect from a straight couple. We just both really want to be parents. We will probably use reproductive technology too, because I can't really get aroused by a woman (like not at all), and if I used a pill, I would probably be unable to achieve ejaculation with a woman.

>>772947

For the record I still didn't have sex with her after 4 years of dating.

Dating means we do stuff together. Movies, dance, swimming, etc.

>>772922

>What I want to know is why are you so obsessed with growing kids in bags?

Not every woman is physically able to bare children the way that you prefer.

Polygamy is a biblical principle and not forbidden. (Muh catholic rage)

many biblical figueres had maids/ housemaids, who where considered part of the house

OT law, allows for maids to bear children without the nessesety of marriage. For this Jacob and Abraham had kids of their maids, without a legal marriage.

In many countries even israel it was acceptable and the bible does not condem it.

For adoption, I dont like it, and I think it foes against biblical principle, for the son/kid was supposed to carry on his fathers lineage, and adopting a kid, by this putting your name on it, is bad. Not only did you steal a kid, but your seed is lost.

You may pick up a kid and support it, but it will never be yours

So if the child bearer is under your care/ authorityduring that time it should be ok, but just paying someone for it like a job should not be ok.

>>772905

HUSBAND

PENIS

IN

WIFE

VAGINA

>>772964

a man will leave his mother and father and be united to his wife. the two become one flesh. monogamy.

>>772942

Yeah, ever notice how a husband or wife isn't excused from adultery because "I'm just trying to be fruitful bro"

>>772823

The Catholic church condemns IVF, but I think if it's done in love and the child is told that one of their parents isn't their real, genetic parent and they were made to continue a bloodline and introduced to the sperm/egg donor, it's forgivable with confession.

>Would this not be considered adultery

Onan's sin wasn't just masturbation; he pulled out of his brother's wife instead of ferilizing her as scripture demands.

Using brothers/sisters to reproduce seems to be acceptable to God.

>>772830

>>772878

Damn yourself to save your bloodline. God won't blame the children.

>>772892

>You see, carrying a live human in your womb for 9 months creates a bonding process between the woman and child. Once that surrogate goes through the labor pains and the baby comes out the two begin the bonding process. Take the child away and the surrogate runs the risk of enduring emotional pain

From a secular point of view, I couldn't imagine the surrogate mother or the egg donor not having something to do with the kids.

>Than there is the physical risks that a surrogate mother can run into. In order to ensure the surrogate gets pregnant, multiple eggs are fertilized and implanted inside of her

Often, they implant multiple eggs, and murder the babies that form until you have one or two left. That is 100% wrong - abortion is horrific for any reason.

Also, for IVF they give egg donors drugs which can ruin their lifes. Dozens of eggs will be released, which are then sold to multiple infertile people.

I'm going to be honest; the eugenics angle attracts me. Also, CRISPR can be used to assure every implanted embryo has the hair, eye and skin color you want.

>>772998

>1+1=1

>(1+1)+1=1

>q.e.d

>>772942

Well, hopefully this post is enough to convince people that adoption is okay.

>>772960

Maybe God has other plans for that woman (ie is humbling her for a sin she committed in the past or He wants her to adopt, etc).

>>772846

So does Jesus. Matthew 5:28 KJV

<But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

>>772956

>being this much of a sperg

Masturbation isn't sinful because it's pleasurable.

It's sinful because it's a sexual act that is not open to the conception of children. If you masturbate IN ORDER TO HAVE CHILDREN, it is no longer sinful, because the natural purpose of sexual release is fulfilled even if a in a more nuanced manner.

But do go ahead and pretend as if I said that masturbation is okay no matter what…

>>773038

It's only okay as long as you fulfill the "fruitful and multiply" command too.

>>773023

>The Catholic church condemns IVF, but I think if it's done in love and the child is told that one of their parents isn't their real, genetic parent and they were made to continue a bloodline and introduced to the sperm/egg donor, it's forgivable with confession.

This is heresy, you cannot abuse God's infinite mercy for your own vanity (bloodline).

>>773267

>Protestant teleology

>>773267

>Masturbation isn't sinful because it's pleasurable.

>shoving a dragon dildo up my bum isn't sinful because it is pleasureable.

>fornicating with whores isn't sinful because it is pleasureable

>going to sodomite orgies isn't sinful because it's pleasurable

>eating a 2nd whole pizza isn't sinful because it's pleasurable

The absolute state of prot theology

>>773576

That's a strawman. He argued that masturbation for the sake of using the semen to produce a child isn't a sin of lust since it wasn't for pleasure, not that masturbation isn't a sin because it's pleasurable.

>>772942

Stop quiting this pre fall command you winnie the poohtard

YOU ARE THE CAST OFF ADOPTED INTO GOD'S FAMILY

YOU WANT TO BE MORE CHRISTLIKE YOU ADOPT YOU LUKEWARM LARPER

>>773576

Actually I'm a catholic.

And Mastrubation is sinful because the seed is wasted and it's a sexual act that is closed to the possibility of childbirth.

However if for whatever reason jerking off is the way for you to have kids because the normal method doesn't work for you and your wife, I'd say it's okay for you to do it in that case.

But otherwise just do normal benis in bagina sex, because that is the natural, intended way.

>>773845

>If god does x it's okay for me to do x

I don't see you destroying Sodom and Gomorrah with napalm tbh…

>>772947

That's a highly fascinating situation. I can't tell if you're larping or not, but if you arent, what a bizarre idea. I'm curious to see how it works

All those unnatural ways of making babies are completely condmend by the Catholic Church and think its even an excomunicable offense. I think Humanis Vitae talks about this for example, and the catechism of course.

Adopt a kid if you really want kids.

Anything else is an offense to the human life and the dignity of the embryo or outright adultery like making a baby with a donor, making that child a bastard.

Only through the love of parents during the sexual act a life must be formed, not with the help of a third party in a lad who treats embryos just like some biological material.

>>772947

Love isn't all about just liking of partner physically.

But you really need to have relations with her to have kids.

Although in your case I wouldn't do it because kids should have parents that really love eachother in a marital way.

The best for you and your girlfriend is to live a life of celibate and live like brothers if you wish, since you guys don't feel attracted to each other.

I'd avoid having kids because of a bad example and suffering that might cause in their lives.

Abraham and Sarah, Zechariah and Elizabeth, others - couples who thought they were infertile but conceived anyway because it was the Lord's will, not by by finding a third party.

>>772944

Onan didn't masturbate, he pulled out of his wife's sister and 'spilled his seed on the ground'. Masturbation is thus inferred to be sinful, because by jerking off you too are spilling your seed upon the 'ground'; ground here referring to any place that isn't inside a woman (i.e. your sock still counts).