/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

1st Corinthians, for Chapter 13 if nothing else (but there's so much more).

>>772288

The hymn of love is Pauls magnum opus in my opinion. It's honestly one of the greatest pieces of writing ever. It cut me straight to the heart when I first read it as an atheist.

Romans

>>772285

Revelation

>>772285

Psalms

>>772331

Psalms and Proverbs often get printed along with New Testaments, but they're Old Testament.

>>772344

Fair point. Then I'll say Acts.

Hebrews

Ephesians, probably

First Corinthians Chapter 15

Apocalypsis, specially in the last chapters. It's the final step, and also the first; it is what are our brothers and sisters in faith have been waiting for centuries.

Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”

>>772812

>saying "Apocalypsis"

edgy

>>772833

I forgot how it's called in English

Romans

>>772430

I'd be scared as a Catholic to read Hebrews

>>772285

The Acts

James.

>>772285

Corinthians and Hebrews, Hebrews specifically highlights Jesus's fulfilment of the OT I feel

>>773097

I'd be scared as a Protestant to read James.

>>773122

Well, maybe if you're not well trained in exegesis and don't read the Bible a lot.

>>773571

Exegete this for me: "What good is it, my brothers, if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you?"

>>773574

Well, I'll quote the main man himself John Can

>I wish the reader to understand that as often as we mention Faith alone in this question, we are not thinking of a dead faith, which worketh not by love, but holding faith to be the only cause of justification. (Galatians 5:6; Romans 3:22.) It is therefore faith alone which justifies, and yet the faith which justifies is not alone: just as it is the heat alone of the sun which warms the earth, and yet in the sun it is not alone, because it is constantly conjoined with light.

Antidote to the council of Trent

>>773577

That's blatantly not the same thing as "sola fide". The implication of "faith alone" is that merely believing is enough, if it is not, and requires works, then why proclaim that is through faith alone?

That simile makes no sense, you can believe and yet not act on many things, but the belief may still be there and strong, meaning you need works.

>>773578

Nope, that's a heresy the reformers combatted known as antinomianism

>>773578

The works we do in faith only server to declare, vindicate and demonstrate our previously justified state. That is the context of James 2. And I'm sure your not gonna want to debate me on James 2 so I suggest you settle down.

>>773577

>It is therefore faith alone which justifies, and yet the faith which justifies is not alone

lol protestants man. This is so autistic. They go on so much about muh sola fide but when push comes to shove they need to engage in these retarded mental gymnastics where the only faith that counts is faith that comes with works. So in the end they admit you do need works or else your faith isn't worth shit.

>>773588

And I'll go further and say that even the works we do are not us doing it but God working through us as per Philippians 2:12-13

>12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

God is the one who begins the faith and he is the one who completes it:

>6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

Philippians 1:6

And what's all this about push comes to shove? Reformers have been saying that works is necessary since the beginning. Here's another quote from your boy Martin Luther.

>"If [good] works and love do not blossom forth, it is not genuine faith, the gospel has not gained a foothold, and Christ is not yet rightly known.”

>>773595

The problem is that that is the exact same position of the Catholic Church. Gods grace saves us through faith, you cannot merit heaven by works but works are still important. So whats with all the REEEEing over sola fide if you accept the Catholic position anyway?

>>773596

Oh, nice try. I'm aware of the papists tricks. Don't try to equivocate our beliefs. You are synergists and we are monergists. You believe that you co-operating with God's grace helps you whereas we believe in God's grace alone. We are simply the puppets fulfilling God's will through our good works. In fact, to use a scriptural term we are God's clay vessel that the potter has fashioned in a way that seems fit to him. God causes us to follow his law, he doesn't wait for us to co-operate with it:

>26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

Ezekiel 36:26-27

>>773583

I'm interested, for the sake of argument, in the proper refutation of it then.

I'm only curious, it seems that the difference then between the belief of yours and that of the necessity of works within the Catholic and Orthodox theological tradition is much more minor than what seems apparent.

>>773600

I think actually the difference is more minor than you're making it out to be. It's not nonexistent as the other anon said, but it's certainly nowhere near as great as purported. The fundamental is that we both do works because of our love of God and goodness, and we are justified by our love and faith of God and proven by our works, do we not share that?

for the record before you call me a papist too, I'm Ordodox.

>>773604

>The difference between the Arians and the niceans was one letter (homoousia or homoiousia). The Arians would agree with pretty much everything that the niceans said until the niceans came up with a vocabulary that would expel the Arians and make them unable to accept it.

That's fair, but I would say in terms of doctrine the implications of our disagreement are far less great.

>And what I mean by this is that in the Catholic faith, when you see your good works as a necessary act that you need to do in order to stay within the realm of salvation you now have no peace with God.

I disagree with this, assuming you imply this for both Catholic and Orthodox. Orthodoxy does not take such a stance upon salvation, which is viewed, rather than through the Western lens of a series of steps or requirements or a simple doctrine, as a mystery of faith beyond the limitations of language. I don't, and I would say most Orthodox don't, view works as necessary sacrifices; but rather as virtuous acts we do with joy as part of being Christian and out of love. Salvation itself is a mystery, but we are to follow Christ's commandments not solely for salvation, but out of love of goodness.

>It's why you go confessions as often as you do.

Again, I think you're wrong. Confession is a means of human connection and forgiveness through the admission of guilt not only to God, but to your fellow-man who through your sinful deeds you have (at least indirectly) harmed. I'm not saved through confession, but I am witnessed by my fellow Christians as repentant of my transgressions against him and against all of humanity. I don't confess to the Priest, I confess to God in the presence of the Priest.

>even at the last moment before death you have to do last rites just in case you commited a sin you forgot or wasn't aware of.

I don't see how you can possibly paint a remission of sins as a bad thing.

>This doesn't sound like a very peaceful place to be.

How so? Is it not peaceful to confess to one another of our faults so we may all be humble and truthful?

>In the Catholic faith they see Christianity as Judaism 2.0

No. Nobody sees that.

>We live knowing that we will go heaven and truly do our good works out of a love for our Lord.

That's a bit presumptuous. Should any man presume himself worthy of the Kingdom of Heaven, let alone certain of his place in it?

>>773600

>>773604

yo

faith without works

it's dead!

>>773612

Legit what John Calvin says.

>>773614

ah! so this was first said by Calvin in the late 1600's?

did he time travel and sneak it into a St. James' letter?

>>773611

I haven't got time to reply to everything at this moment but I'll reply to what you said here:

>Should any man presume himself worthy of the Kingdom of Heaven, let alone certain of his place in it?

If you're familiar with the reformed hymn know as rock of ages. There's a very beautiful line in it that goes as such: "Nothing in my hand I bring, simply to thy cross I cling." And that's it. We are not worthy of heaven but have been made so by the imputed righteousness of our Lord.

>>773616

No, just that he also believes as James does that a faith which does not have works is dead. Read what I wrote here: >>773577

Also, assuming you're a Cathodox I'm sure you like early church father quotes;

>They were all glorified and magnified, not through themselves or their own works or the good deeds which they did, but through His will. 4 And we also, having been called through His will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, or by our own wisdom or understanding or piety or the works we have done in holiness of heart, but through the faith, by which the Almighty God has justified all men from the beginning; to whom be glory for all ages. Amen.

Clement of Rome epistle to church in Corinth chapter 32

>>773611

But I just wanna say. Thanks for showing me your position and how it differs from the view of Rome. I appreciate the time you took to educate me know your beliefs. God bless.

>>773618

I just dislike the concept of presuming a place in Heaven, is all.

>>773628

Thank you. This in turn has helped me understand the position of Protestants a lot more. God bless you too.