/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>771360

Just another person to ignore entirely

>>771360

Prime example of what happens when people convert to Orthodoxy in order to be edgy.

literally who?

>>771360

I've never ever watched him. I don't like his "dude debate me" attitude.

As a convert he could spend more time learning stuff instead of trying to teach others.

>>771366

I'd rather listen to 3 hours of Jonathan Pageau than half an hour of Jay Dyer. Jay has the theology, but he lacks the spirit.

>>771453

>but he lacks the spirit.

I agree. Jay is good with the memorization of concepts that comes from reading a lot of books, but that is not what Orthodoxy is.

I honestly think he's a meme, I don't buy his apologetic's for Orthodoxy against Catholicism. Too much false dialectics and I honestly think it's emotionally rooted.

I like his stuff about the jews/NWO/bankers whatever you want to call them, like the videos about HG Wells or the Council on Foreign Relations. His theology work is kind of dry and he comes off a bit arrogant though. All in all he's alright.

>>771465

Even then, he doesn't seem to actually understand what he's reading.

His article calling the filioque "arianism applied to the Holy Spirit" (or whatever it was) argues against a strawman while not giving an actually accurate depiction of Orthodox pneumatology.

That he supports conspiracy theories and accuses our hierarchs of being corrupt is schismatic behavior as well.

As >>771453 said, Jonathan Pageau is a much better "Youtube layman". BibleIllustrated is alright but pretty simple, and I disagree with him on some things.

>>771502

>Dyer

>actually talking about Jews

Pick one and only one.

>>771367

you clearly haven't watched very much of him if you think he's uneducated. He's certainly cocky, but i guess that kind of confidence is to be expected when someone actually bothers to autistically study all the major christian sects in depth.

>>771504

>supports conspiracy theories

Not an argument. Talking about well documented events and relations with a bit of speculation isn't a sin just because such information is obscure. It's not like he's claiming to have "secret knowledge" or doing any occulting himself.

>>771518

>but i guess that kind of confidence is to be expected when someone actually bothers to autistically study all the major christian sects in depth.

>it's expected to become arrogant from studying Christian Theology

I don't even know much about the guy, but from that alone it seems you've been led astray. Humility is the greatest of Christian virtues, from it comes all other virtuous behaviour, without it comes all vice and sin.

>>771533

Did I say humility wasn't a virtue? What I am saying is that forgiveness is the utmost virtue, regardless of how obnoxious another christian's sins may seem to us. He may not fit our vision for an ideal christian, but that is literally what Jesus is for, not the rest of us sinners. Who are we to judge him for lacking humility in his preaching? Surely many of us have done much worse than that. Meanwhile, he has managed to convert many to orthodoxy, and has admitted that he aggressively focuses on apologetics precisely because it's a field dominated by protestants and not something the orthodox focus on very much. Judge him by his fruits if you must, but it is ultimately not our arbitrary earthly opinions of him that matter. To suggest I am somehow "led astray" for merely reminding christians of this, is amusing, but I try to constantly remind myself that we're all horrendously imperfect, for otherwise we would have no reason to follow Jesus.

>>771518

I never called him uneducated. But theology is not just reading books and then trying to pick up fights on the internet and calling everyone a mason, especially Orthodox theology. There are illiterate monks who are much better theologians than Dyer. When i said that he could spend more time learning stuff i meaned to work on his own passions, according to the Orthodox theachings, before he takes the role of the teacher and prophet. Arrogance and pride are the mothers of all heresies.

>>771510

Yeah what's up with that?

Dyer is the -voice- of american orthodox. Shrill, querulous, and eager to prove itself.

Lmao, why don't you debate dyer or list what you think is wrong with his theology?

>>771626

>shrill, querulous, and eager to prove itself

i rest my case

>>771569

>There are illiterate monks who are much better theologians than Dyer.

Perhaps, but then, so what? He's not a father, nor claiming to be anything more than a nerdy apologist for orthodoxy. He might not be the greatest at it, but it's obvious he's resonating with at least *some* people that might've otherwise not found the faith, or been interested in the writings of the church fathers. If he's actually getting more westerners to be legitimately interested in Orthodoxy over RC and Protestantism, then fair play to him. He could be nothing more than a well-trained labrador for all I care, his judgement is not in my hands.

>i meaned to work on his own passions, according to the Orthodox theachings, before he takes the role of the teacher and prophet.

That would be ideal of course, but that's ultimately up to him and particular to his own personal journey. The rest of us in the peanut gallery have no basis on which to cast the first stone when it comes to matters of pride, surely.

Personally, I find his videos a bit tiring to listen to because of how he rambles and goes on endless tangents, but I appreciate his book reviews and recommendations at least.

>>771627

lol what? What's your case? If you think you know more do a video about what you disagree with or at least name one here if you can't do the latter.

>>771367

This. I don't dislike him and he's a smart guy for sure but if he really wants to educate people about God he should become a priest instead of a youtube personality.

>>771649

That is why Fr. Spyridon is my favorite Orthodox yt person to watch.

>>771649

lol why?

>>771658

That's some patrician taste right there

Jay's based awtp tbf. For all his faults (see also >>769002 ) he puts out great content that's v interesting and yeah he may be a little cocky here and there (though I think that might only be in debates with total numbskull atheists/materialists because I haven't seen many of his debates and but have watched/listened to a fair amountof his stuff over the past few months and he doesn't seem too bad at all, sometime's he has to clarify that 'he's not bragging' but is overall just confident and speaking his view on things). Overall he seems to put out great stuff, interesting topics, good tone with the occassional well timed dick joke or a some funny impression or two often of a questionable quality/accuracy, all part of the fun and for for a sensible chuck'l, what's not to love ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

>>771630

You're only proving my point, Dyer is a lay-man, he is neither a priest nor an actual qualified theologian, but he has read a lot of books and occupies a very specific niche - an orthodox american who knows a lot about orthodox theology and has a youtube channel.

I'm not interested in debating him, nor can I, because I do not know a fig about Orthodox theory, nor do I care.

He is however, intensely interested in self-promotion, so instead of seeking real avenues of theological debate (you know, becoming a qualified theologian and holding actual academic debates with other qualified theologians) Dyer roams the world seeking people to roast on youtube. Shrill, querulous, and over-eager to prove himself.

>>771629

Well he is claiming to be an authority in theology and he've also badmouthed other, actual, theologians and hierarchs so i'm judging his according to this. And the worst part in my opinion is that his audience are new converts mostly from America that he's leading astray from Orthodoxy and into conspiracy theories and useless polemics with Catholics. I don't say that you shouldn't watch him but really there're more useful sources to learn about Orthodoxy from than him. At least i hope his book recommentations are good.

>>771749

to be perfectly honest, as a catholic, I find he is a great figure-head to point out why people shouldn't be orthodox.

i checked out his web-site for the first time, and it is decked with A E S T H E T I C faux-80's meme imagery, this could be a good reason why nobody actually accredited wants to be seen with this guy

>>771755

It's a bit unfair to hold Dyer as the main example for Orthodoxy though. More than half of us are heretics for him anyway. And that's what i'm trying to explain to the other anon here, it's not that Dyer is bad for our "image" or anything but that his attitude confuses people, both Orthodox and Catholics, about our point of view. The fact that he's popular with new converts makes things even worse.

This channel is way better in my opinion when it comes to Orthodox matters, i'm more into these stuff than yt debates.

>>771769

>It's a bit unfair to hold Dyer as the main example for Orthodoxy though

I agree, but it is something that will keep on happening because there is no other face for American Orthodoxy; additionally, the pseudo-conspiracy 80's facade is explicitly targeting the American Orthodox convert.

>>771510

He doesn't talk about jews as much as he should given the subject matter of his work, but he does bring them up like in the Tragedy and Hope review. The only Orthodox person I can think of that actually talks about jews in depth is Matt Johnson though.

>>771771

And there will never be any other face for American Orthodoxy, people will find whatever they are looking for. The real faces of Orthodoxy try to remain concealed from the world.

>>771787

>And there will never be any other face for American Orthodoxy

ouch

>The real faces of Orthodoxy try to remain concealed from the world.

Sounds gnostic

>>771788

>ouch

Orthodoxy doesn't work with celebrities that's what i mean

>Sounds gnostic

wat why

>>771792

Christianity has a very public character to it, we are called to go out into the world and witness the gospels. The idea that "true adherents" of Christianity hide away from the world is antithetical to the Gospels.

Even the old-time monastics always took the time to go on preaching tours in the older days, or at least do public services. Moreover, they are many famous preachers (i'm sure on both sides) who converted legions of souls while assuming vows of poverty.

>>771792

People call anything slightly hidden, obscure, or mystical "gnostic" these days.

>>771797

No, that's genuinely gnostic. They believed they were enlightened, that anyone not like them was automatically doomed to never be saved.

It's an insular character that's foreign to Christianity, but very familiar to pseudo-christian cults (and protestants)

>>771794

Can you tell me about the public services and preachings of Saint Mary of Egypt? Where exactly did see preach?

>>771797

I know, the wonders of westernized Christianity.

>>771802

>Can you tell me about the public services and preachings of Saint Mary of Egypt?

There's literally tens of thousands of Saints, many of which - on both sides - are extraordinarily accomplished public preachers. This isn't really an argument you can round down to a single Saint with.

>>771805

So she isn't worthy enouph for you? Then tell me about Saint Antony the Great, or is he a gnostic too?

Of course i didn't mean that we should all live like that (we can't) when i said that about people who stay concealed from the world. But indeed it's well known that most holy men always like to spend time alone and not boast about their holines and wisdom. That's what i meaned "concealed".

>>771809

>So she isn't worthy enouph for you?

wut

>Then tell me about Saint Antony the Great, or is he a gnostic too?

wut

You seem to misunderstand, my point was that Christianity has an explicit evangelical character to it - and to suggest that it is OK that the main representative for the true religion (for you, anyway) is someone you admit isn't the best isn't a great state of affairs.

>But indeed it's well known that most holy men always like to spend time alone and not boast about their holines and wisdom.

boasting about holiness and wisdom is not the same thing as preaching, at best it is a sort of wayward rhetoric

>>771787

>The real faces of Orthodoxy try to remain concealed from the world.

The real faces of Orthodox do not try to remain concealed from the world. They try to conceal their holiness because their holiness makes them know their unworthiness and they do not want to deceive the world. That's why it is vitally important for every Orthodox to have acquired at least a little of the gifts of the Holy Spirit because only through the Holy Spirit we can recognize such people. And we have to know such people in order not to be deceived in this cunning time. The following is from Chrysostom:

There may be saints, who are much waited on by every one. Do not visit these, who are in the enjoyment of plenty, but those who are in tribulation, who are unknown, or known to few. He who has "done it unto the least of these," He says, "has done it unto Me." Matthew 25:40

Tell me then, you will say, whether any one could wash the Saints' feet in the Church? Whether such are to be found among us? Yes: undoubtedly they are such. Let us not, however, when the life of these saints is described despise those that are in the Churches. There are many such often among us, though they are in secret. Nor let us despise them, because they go from house to house, or go into the forum, or stand forth in public. God has even commanded such services, saying, "Judge the fatherless, plead for the widow." Isaiah 1:17 Many are the ways of being virtuous, as there are many varieties of jewels, though all are called jewels; one is bright and round on all sides, another has some different beauty. And how is this? As coral has, by a kind of art, its line extended, and its angles shaped off, and another color more delicious than white, and the prasius above every green, another has the rich color of blood, another an azure surpassing the sea, another is more brilliant than the purple, and thus rivaling in their varieties all the colors of flowers or of the sun. Yet all are called jewels. So it is with the Saints. Some discipline themselves, some the Churches. Paul therefore has well said, "If she have washed the Saints' feet, if she have relieved the afflicted." For he speaks thus, that he may excite us all to imitation. Let us hasten then to perform such actions, that we may be able hereafter to boast that we have washed the Saints' feet. For if we ought to wash their feet, much more ought we to give them our money with our own hands, and at the same time study to be concealed. "Let not your left hand know," He says, "what your right hand does." Matthew 6:3 Why do you take so many witnesses?

>>771812

I think you first started misunderstand what i was saying.

But i finally found the quote from Fr Isaac the Syrian:

>"He who strives for honor has honor running away from him,

while he who runs away from honor has it chasing him"

And that's exactly what i meaned and that's also my opinion about Dyer. Not everyone is good at evangelizing others, actually there very few who have that gift. Orthodox evangelization has more to do with being an example with your life to others so you'll bring them closer to God than hitting doors and preaching the gospel to total strangers.

>>771364

Every Christian is considered "edgy" now for not supporting sodomy and saying incorrect pronouns.

>>771819

>Orthodox evangelization has more to do with being an example with your life to others so you'll bring them closer to God than hitting doors and preaching the gospel to total strangers.

All apostolic evangelization is like this, yes.

>>771817

I agree with every word of Saint Chrysostomos.

>>771822

Yes, there's a reason monasticism is also called hermitism. Please don't confuse it with gnosticism. Praying for the word in isolation is also an act of evangelizing.

>>771749

>he is claiming to be an authority in theology

He claims to be well read on it, but he's open about not being a priest nor a real theologian. Does simply squabbling about things you study a lot automatically insinuate that you claim to be an authority on them?

Just seems like the usual vice of pride from both sides of the debate to me.

>and he've also badmouthed other, actual, theologians and hierarchs

And Jesus badmouthed the Jewish hierarchs of his time. Why should this be any of our business? Let said hierarchs deal with him if it matters that much. Forgive your perceived enemies anon.

Anyone who thinks Dyer is bad should read about Léon Bloy.

>>771822

Catholic missionaries went to the ends of the earth to give people the gospel and often died because of it, the Orthodox 99% of the time exist in insular ethnic tribes with no intention of reaching outside of their bubble. I've been told by two different Orthodox priests that "we don't evangelize", this is a large part of why I'm choosing Rome over Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy hasn't been a real force in the world throughout history, Catholicism has been the de facto visible pillar of truth for all nations to see.

>>772104

>I've been told by two different Orthodox priests that "we don't evangelize"

You've never been told such a thing but what kind of a fake Christian you'll be without lying?

>>772111

Why would I lie on 8chan? From my experience, this was word for word what I was told, at a Serbian church and an OCA church. I'm not being payed by the Vatican, friend.

>>772114

Because i can bring countless examples of evangelization by Orthodox in America alone let alone that OCA is made up entirelly by converts. So either you're lying or two different priests lied to you for whatever reason.

>>772118

You can believe whatever you want, I'm simply sharing my own personal experiences, that are not unusual. I can't justify schism and exclusion of the most historically prominent part of the church.

>>772118

The past 60 years in the church is not the norm, we live in dark times both outside and inside the church. Fatima has been proven correct so far, it's not hard to see where things are headed, but in the end truth will prevail. I'm simply concerned about saving myself and those around me, I know there's rot everywhere.

>>772114

> From my experience, this was word for word what I was told, at a Serbian church and an OCA church.

Maybe you misunderstood them? Perhaps they meant they don't stand on street corners yelling or go around knocking on people's doors.

>>772121

>but in the end truth will prevail

The Catholics are used to think of their Church as a "real force" and a "visible pillar" as you wrote in your previous comment – a great, influential organization. But the state in the world is such that in order for the truth to prevail in the Catholic church, it will have to give up all this visible "greatness" and prefer to it the invisible greatness of being together with God. The right choice is clear, but do we, the feeble vicious men have the strength to make it?

>>772134

>the church has to give up it's visible greatness

Why? I don't get your line of reasoning.

>>772145

Because "the light has come into the world, and people have loved the darkness rather than the light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone who practices evil hates the light and does not come to the light, for fear that his works would be exposed." Because the world hates the Church, when the Church bear witness concerning it, that its works are evil. (3:19-20; 7:7) The choice is to be the light in world or to be visibly great in the world. Because the great day of the Lord will not take place unless the apostasy comes first. Because God sends to those who did not receive the love of the truth a strong delusion so that they should believe a lie and those who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness shall all be judged. (2 Thess. 2:3,10-12)

>>772158

I thought you meant whitewashing churches and iconoclasm for a moment, but I agree and there are signs that things are beginning to turn and people are picking up the pieces again

>>771786

Which is why MRJ is EMJ-tier and (((Dyer))) isn't.

Jay Dyer is a prime example of the dangers of intellectual pride. He's very learned about theology but he demonstrates very little of the actual spirit of Christ. Far from showing the humility and charity that he should, Dyer is often haughty and aggressive in his debates and talks down to people like he considers them inferiors. It's all well and good to know your churches positions, but it's all for naught if you don't actually live your faith. God isn't going to give you a theological exam to enter the Kingdom, He is going to examine your life and every action and thought.

Dyer should spend less time researching theology and more time focusing on his spiritual life. I doubt he even prays every day.

>>772374

>God isn't going to give you a theological exam to enter the Kingdom

True, baptism of desire, invincible ignorance and all that.

But how are you ment to discern between catholicism, orthodoxy and protestantism? Some people aren't given simple faith. You have to give kudos to him either way for actually trying above and beyond, now hes trying to help others.

>spend less time researching theology and more time focusing on his spiritual life

this is always true, but doesn't orthodoxy proceed orthopraxis?

>>772374

There is just as much pride in that comment as there in the man it's critiquing. Whether or not someone has "enough" of the "spirit of Christ" in them personal matter between them and God. It appears he is in the process of being saved just like the rest of us, and that's all that matters. Any sinners casting stones on others for not being higher on the ladder of divine ascent is a hypocrite.

>>772435

>It appears he is in the process of being saved

Does it though? Looks more like he treats his faith like learning D&D lore. He shows zero fruits of the spirit which should be a real concern. Knowledge means nothing at all, you're not saved by knowing esoteric theological facts

>>772436

Don't do this anon.

Do you mean he is not saved because he knows some esoteric theological facts? No. What you seem, however, to imply is that he is not saved because he is missing something important for the salvation. But the facts are that we are unable to judge the other people in this way. When we do this we are projecting our own spiritual experience on other people. In some cases we see in the others our sins and weaknesses ("they are like me"). In other cases we are overreacting about faults our pride makes us think we are free of or when we try very hard to fight some vice ("they are not like me"). In yet other cases we are simply jealous about something we don't have ("they can't be better than me"). But in all cases our accusations tell more about our own spiritual state than about the spiritual state of the accused.

"Who are you who judge someone else’s servant? He stands or falls to his own master! Yes, that one will be made [able] to stand, because God has the power to make someone stand. But [as for] you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ." (Romans 14:4,10)

Jay Dyer and the others have always struck an odd chord. I don't approve of anything they do and I've never been a particularly big fan. In a way, I agree with >>772436 and all other criticisms of him. He doesn't leave a good impression, regardless of his intellectual correctness. I doubt he is making any serious in-roads with Catholics. He, and the others he's mainly associated with, ran in the same circles as TDS and folks like Dean Esmay or Matthew Heimbach. "Know them by the fruit of their works."

I cannot agree, however, with the assertion that they are truly and utterly un-Christian or that they're not genuine in their faith. I can only suspect it, and pray God for forgiveness for such a grave sin. I can only say rightly that they are at worst completely erroneous and counterproductive in their application and at best simply not for me. I lean more to the former, especially with Heimbach and Esmay.

I hope that >>772446 is about this concern more than it is about standing up and raising concern. God forgive us all, we are hypocrites and short-sighted. But I must do and I must say what I truly believe is right, and when I fail I must ask for forgiveness. If you haven't yet, read up on St. Maximos the Confessor.

>>771360

He is usually too arrogant to actually debate and defeat his opposition with actual arguments.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJJw7jAKR8w

Case in point. Throughout this debate, he didn't really address his opponent, he made references to stuff he didn't even explain, and was generally an asshole to such an extent that he actually made the perennialsit guy sympathetic and I decided to look up his channel instead.

Dyer claims that his oppositin is simply wrong in this video, without explaining and arguing why. Maybe I'm a brainlet but I actually wanted to hear a detailed refutation.

>>772473

Maya is self refuting and Jay went over this with Aarvoll. Did you actually watch the video?

Probably has 40 more iq than the vast majority of the people on this board.

>>772488

HELLO JAY!!!

>>772488

Cope.

>>772446

Don't put words in my mouth please. I never said he's not saved (which is a very Protestant way of phrasing it), I don't presume to know who is within Gods grace and who is not. I only said that he doesn't display the humility and charity that is becoming of a follower of Christ. We are told not to involve ourselves in meaningless disputes and yet Dyer relishes meaningless disputes, he actively seeks them out and what is worse when he finds someone to dispute with he talks down to them and acts with extreme hubris.

See >>772473 for an example.

Jay Dyer is very knowledgeable about Orthodox theology. I acknowledge that. However from the way he behaves on his Youtube channel I believe he needs to work on his own spiritual development and work on increasing his virtue, particularly humility and kindness.

I think he's smart, but he isn't really a theologian. I mainly only like him because he debated JF Gariepy on the existence of God and humiliated him.

t. American ortho-convert

>>772559

Every Christian man should be able to humiliate atheists.

>>772516

> His story goes: Calvinist

wow, really? Dyer definitely has that self-important calvinist streak

>>772563

I agree but JF is a tough cookie. The guy's a doctor of biology or something. I don't think I would have had the brain power to do what Jay did to him.

>>772485

This is exactly problem with Jay.

He asserts something without explaining it.

Yes I did watch the video. No, Jay didn't elaborate sufficiently on his assertion that Maya is self-refuting.

We are not 130+ IQ nibbas here. DO UNPACK.

>>772523

>We are told not to involve ourselves in meaningless disputes

<engages in meaningless dispute

Instead of observing a man's sin and learning not to do it themselves, people use it as justification to continue perpetuating the same sin themselves. Oh the irony.

>>772610

I'm not disputing with anyone though, I'm making an observation. You're entitled to your opinion and so am I. I actually have no idea why you're so desperate to try and find a way to characterize my very valid criticism of Dyers lack of humility as a sin.

>>772613

The form of criticism being made was no mere casual statement of observation, but one of judgement. None of our earthly judgements are "valid" in the eyes of God. The very way you started your engagement with >>772446 was with defensiveness (as if it were a dispute), attempting to justify yourself instead of overlooking the minor details of its phrasing and focusing on the bigger picture of its clearly good intentions.

If I am "desperate" to do anything (itself already a judgemental and uncharitable interpretation of my message), it's to remind Christians that Jesus held legalistic hypocrites in higher contempt than the sinners they disavowed. And divisive characters like Dyer are quite effective in bringing out the Pharisees. Such men should serve as a reminder to look more closely at ourselves, not as target practice for our righteousness.

So justify your opinions/observations/condemnations of men however you wish, but we are all still sinners at the end of the day, and it is not the rest of us who will be your final judgers.

>>772516

Looking at that video I would say he has a twisted view of Catholicism (surprise surprise for American convert). It is not fair to say "nitzschean ubermensch" since he said only "ubermensch". However even using this concept is kind of mockery if you take into account the fact that Nietzsche's philosophy is basically anti-traditional, modern bs. Why would anyone push the whole concept of "ubermensch" in christian sense? The ubermensch literally tries to be his own God because Nietzsche has no moral compass. For ubermensch the God is dead and what remains is that he becomes one.

Tbh it seems like wrecking Spencer in the debate is not very difficult when it comes to religion since he regurgitates atheist talking points from /pol/ and tries to appeal to pagans while insulting christians as little as possible. If you look at this video Spencer literally talks as some little boy that heard "christianity bad". He is not even a good speaker. I am not going to derail the thread to be about spencer but the guy is literally a retard magnet. If you pay attention to what the guy says and take his "opinions" seriously you should reconsider what you are doing with your life

>>772625

>it's to remind Christians that Jesus held legalistic hypocrites in higher contempt

It should then concern you that Jay Dyer by all appearances is one of those legalistic hypocrites by the way he focuses on ritual and theology while not practicing according to the spirit of the law.

>Such men should serve as a reminder to look more closely at ourselves, not as target practice for our righteousness.

We need to hold each other accountable. You're forgetting that. Remember Ezekiel 3:18 "If I say to the wicked person, 'You will surely die,' but you do not warn him–you don't speak out to warn him about his wicked way in order to save his life–that wicked person will die for his iniquity. Yet I will hold you responsible for his blood."

If you retreat into yourself when you see one of your brothers straying off the path and allowing it because "Who am I to judge" you bring condemnation on yourself because their damnation is something you will be held accountable for.

>but we are all still sinners at the end of the day

Letting brothers in Christ off the hook for not living in the spirit of Christ because "we're all sinners dude" is antithetical to how we should actually behave. Correct your brothers in love and kindness, don't let Jay continue condemning himself because you're his fanboy.

>>772516

>Hesychasm “has obvious parallels in yoga and among the sufis of Islam” says Orthodox bishop Kallistos Ware, Oxford doctoral advisor of Joseph Farrell. Andrew Louth, who observed the similarity of ‘essence-energies’ to Kabbalah, was also on Farrell’s doctoral committee.

Some remarks on this:

1: Farrell and Dugin are obviously nutcases and not to be trusted.

2: Kallistos Ware is nearly the James Martin of Orthos, so I don't know what interpretive retardation might be going on in his mind, but what does he actually say in that respect?

3: I've frequently heard the comparison of the EED to kabbalah (from opponents of the doctrine) but having reverted to Catholicism following years of unfortunate interest in the occult, the EED thing still confuses me as to what EXACTLY it means, but it never struck me as sounding like kabbalistic garbage. I'm aware that both make reference to a "light" but from what I can tell the understanding of this light is completely different between the two.

Again, these are just remarks on this and I remain anti-Dyerite.

>>772635

>Jay Dyer by all appearances is one of those legalistic hypocrites

No one is debating this.

>We need to hold each other accountable. You're forgetting that.

and what do you think I am doing here?

>don't let Jay continue condemning himself

by critiquing him on an anonymous image board that he likely doesn't read? If this is truly your goal, there are better ways of reaching him.

>because you're his fanboy.

Yet another needless accusation.

>>772516

>>Ctrl+F “Dugin”

>>no results

what did he mean by this

>>772639

>that he likely doesn't read?

Sure thing, Jay..

>>772638

>1: Farrell and Dugin are obviously nutcases and not to be trusted.

Farrell shows up twice on Dyer’s recommended reading list. Thick books on nature of East/West and Christology. Dyer interviews Dugin and generally shares anti-West sentiment. Both conceive of Moscow as Third Rome. Spencer too has a weird fascination with Rome.

>2: Kallistos Ware is nearly the James Martin of Orthos, so I don't know what interpretive retardation might be going on in his mind, but what does he actually say in that respect?

https://web.archive.org/web/20130106235357/http://bogoslov.ru/en/text/2671134.html

>3: I've frequently heard the comparison of the EED to kabbalah

For the history of it, check out Solzhenitsyn’s 200 Years Together, long-been-banned book in English, available just recently https://anonfile.com/A7f8R9ebb6/200_Years_Together.pdf - if you don’t trust the link, you can google an alternative. Crazy how susceptible 15th century Orthodox Russia was to the Judaizing heresy.

As for the theology, here is academic paper by Michael Morbey http://web.ncf.ca/an359/parallels_byzantine-hesychast_divine_essence-energies.pdf

>>772657

Judaizing is always a temptation, as EMJ frequently points out with respect to Calvinism and the whole Puritan ethos of America.

>>772104

>U.S.

>Latin America

>Alaska/Canada

>Japan

>Central Africa

>North Korea

>India

What are you talking about. These are all ongoing pushes I can come up with just off of the top of my head.

no one's going to take you seriously if you dont learn greek and latin jay

>>772516

Do you have source on Jay dyer being converted by Joseph farrel and Joseph farrel on orthodoxry?

Sorry for bumping this thread

>>771360

>Jay Dyer

I've seen his debate with Styxhexenhammer666 and that french guy on The Public Space, and I thought he did a pretty terrible job in both.

I just don't see how someone can pretend to speak knowledgeably about geopolitics and never mention jews once. I do like his theology talks but I'm going to cancel my subscription and give the money to TruNews.

>>772115

>OCA

Well firstly its not all converts because it it includes ethnic diocese within it but more relevantly according to the Atlas of American Orthodox Christian Churches they only have about 33,000 active members and are not particulary representative of Eastern Orthodoxy in the US. Indeed in my country Orthodoxy has been here for over a century yet 60ish percent of its members were born overseas and evangelising is mainly through marriage - which even in the US continues to be the largest source of new converts.

Still perhaps what the priests meant was that their church was too small to engange in co-ordinated evangelising.

>>773654

I didn't see his Styx debate but he mopped the floor with JF.

>>773714

>>773654

If you're talking about the styx video I've seen it wasn't a debate, it was literally a conversation /discussion between two e-dudes. It had the potential to get 'debatey' when Jay kept pushing particular points which Styx kept missing, ignoring or misunderstanding but because of the fact that it was not a debate Jay dropped it pretty early.

>>773669

He got his blog nuked so I guess he learned his lesson. I don't know if he talked about Jews but he seems pretty knowledgeable about the truth of usury and blames the papist for it.

>>773669

Yeah, Jay has never once talked about the Rothschilds or George Soros.

>>773744

> but he seems pretty knowledgeable about the truth of usury and blames the papist for it.

>usury

>blames Catholics

>not Jews

lol. it's like when protestants blame catholics for birth-control.

>>773730

which is also the big difference between EMJ and Jay Dyer, if EMJ can name the Jews AND hold a conversation with people who don't necessarily agree with him, he will be a hundred times more effective in anything JD will ever do

>>773966

>>773966

The Catholics actually allowed and pushed usury to Jews. Jay's words.

>>773971

…

>>772446

Satan was an intellectual and I'm sure he could recite to any theological fact you were to ask him. What I am getting at is that being well versed in theology is only a part and not the only part of being saved. There's nothing wrong with being passionate in defending proper theology, but Dyer is a snob.

>>774012

Coolstory. That's only like the millionth time that argument's been made about Jay, not including practically everyone else in this thread repeating it. I get it, he rubbed me the wrong way at first too, but that's just lazy low hanging fruit at this point, when he also talks about a bunch of other stuff that's probably controversial. Also, I don't think anybody's been arguing that theological knowledge is enough to get him saved either (nevermind that "being saved" as a binary state isn't Orthodox to begin with), so that's a weak justification.

What some other anons here have rightfully pointed out however, is that simply putting him on blast for being a dick is at least equally as "snobbish" as the stuff he does, because it's straight up Pharisee territory. Did pride make everyone here forget that the Pharisees were also "rightfully" criticizing blatant sinners? It's not like Jesus damned them for shunning puppies and kittens. Sure, Jay may qualify as a Pharisee himself too, but is that an excuse to fight fire with fire now?

There are plenty of other things people could safely critique about JD I'm sure, but for some reason "pious" Christians always choose this particular cross to die on. It's not worth it.

>>774039

>is that simply putting him on blast for being a dick is at least equally as "snobbish" as the stuff he does

No it isn't. That's stupid. Dyer displays an obvious lack of humility and no amount of REEEing over "Pointing out he lacks humility makes you just as bad as him!" doesn't change that fact. We get it, you really like Jay Dyer but when so many people are pointing out the same deep flaw you can't keep trying to say that it's "pharasee like" to be pointing it out. It's not. It's preventing other Christians from being led astray by thinking that Christianity is an intellectual exercise and not one that starts from the heart and modifying your behavior. There's nothing wrong with knowing theology and having a deep knowledge of your faith, if that interests you go for it, but there are going to be a lot of Christians who knew nothing about theology but gave their lives for charity and others that are going to be ahead of Jay Dyer in the queue for the New Jerusalem.

What i really don't like about Dyer overall is not his personal flaws but the school of thought he has created in many of the new (American mostly) converts. That youtube, Alex Jones tier theology.

Catholics have meme monastery, Protestants have Anderson, pagans have Varg and we have Dyer.

>>774040

>you can't keep trying to say that it's "pharasee like" to be pointing it out. It's not.

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize I was speaking with God himself here (because only he would be able to override the words of Jesus and know such things with that much certainty, of course).

In that case, you win. Whatever you say goes captain.

>>774045

Your brothers in Christ are pointing it out and you're choosing to defend your favorite youtube personality rather than admit he has a serious personality flaw that can potentially lead other Christians astray. There are many good Orthodox Christian role models to emulate, Jay Dyer is not one of them. He's a man obsessed with "owning" those of different theological persuasions rather than growing in virtue and holiness.

>>774044

This.

These figures are meme-theologians.

They are surface level for people who only want to be flashy about their new trendy religion.

>>774046

And your brothers in Christ are telling you that you should keep your own pride in check. If you think he's my favorite YouTube personality for example, then you either have a wild imagination or a reading problem. I'm perfectly fine with people critiquing him, in fact I want more people debating his theological rants more, because at least that's interesting and people could learn something from it. But you're the one just autistically harping on his personality flaw like it isn't patently obvious or it's some automatic "get banned from heaven" card.

There are plenty of exaples of non-Pharisee tier criticisms in this thread alone, just look at:

>>771493

>>771504

>>771769

>>771786

>>772516

>>772553

>>772598

>>772632

>>772638

>>772657

>>773073

>>773654

>>773669

>>773954

>>773967

>>774044

I don't necessarily agree with some of them, but otherwise they're perfectly fine. You're the one choosing to die on this cross of him being a meanie, as if making a mountain out of that molehill were something deeply righteous.

>>774051

>You're the one choosing to die on this cross of him being a meanie

I don't care if he's a "meanie". He displays an unwarranted level of pride that concerns me. You're assuming that he personally offends me when I'm simply offering up the very valid observation that while he knows a lot about theology he clearly does NOT live the gospel, and that should be concerning. Especially to one of his big fans like yourself.

>>774052

>I actually don't care, I'm just offended

[-]

>>774052

>I don't care if he's mean

>but he is mean tho

k. You might as well be one of those people that constantly hate on Jordan Peterson at that point, cause you're just talking in circles now.

But the way you're getting worked up about this and completely ignoring all the other valid criticisms of Jay, make me think you care about him way more than many of his viewers do, and are just projecting your own issues. Cause I only stumbled across him because he's one of the few people making videos about the works of the church fathers, so I don't care about every autistic little thing he stands for. In fact, I think he downright disavowes Peterson, which is silly. But hey, maybe you two could find some common ground there.

>>774052

>he clearly does NOT live the gospel

You do not know the man in his personal life so your "very valid observations" are based on his hammed up WWE-esque internet persona. Your criticism is on the level of seeing a villain in a TV show and assuming the actor actually wants to destroy the world. This is nothing more than backbiting and gossip.

>>774063

>WWE-esque

It is pretty funny to watch his douchebagginess go from 0 to 60 and back down again, depending on whether he sees something as an official "debate" or not. WWE-esque is a great way of putting it, lol.

>>771360

full blown narcissist

>>774067

Humility is for your own salvation not your personal gift to humanity

>>773967

No, it wasn't a case of Jay explaining it poorly, it was just the classic atheist/materialist delusion where they simply do not get the point and are not able to follow through on their positions to their logical conclusion, i.e. that they (do not actually) have any basis or foundation for rationality, logic, morality etc etc. Happens literally all the time and nothing to do with how it's explained, it's just that they're in denial/literally delusional. And hey, like I said, it wasn't a debate but maybe if it was Jay would have taken the time to construct his points and deconstruct Styx's more comprehensively to lay out the latter's contractions more plainly but, well, it wasn't a debate, so..

>>774067

The great heretics of history were perfectly knowledgeable in orthodox theology, but chose to derail the Church deliberately. That's why heresy literally means choice.

Dyer calls anyone and everyone who is on a honest path to God that's not his own, a heretic.

Father Freeman? Heretic. Pageau? Heretic. If you don't pass Jay's theology test you're a heretic, even if you convert as many if not more to Christ by different means that don't inflate the intellectual ego.

>>774236

They were scribes. They KNEW he was the messiah, they knew every text and every psalm. But they chose their side, their father, the Devil.

Do not conflate heresy and ignorance.

>>774240

>They KNEW he was the messiah

uh, wat?

That's the first time I'm hearing such a bold interpretation of them. I don't recall the scriptures detailing that much of the Pharisees' private knowledge on the matter. It seemed pretty straightforward that they believed Jesus was a heretic, and probably for many of the same reasons Jews still reject him today. That's kinda the point of the whole "having faith in him" thing.

>>774316

It was their life's job to know. Knowing everything and believing with your heart are very different things.

Isaiah 29:13

>The Lord says:

>“These people come near to me with their mouth

>and honor me with their lips,

>but their hearts are far from me.

>Their worship of me

>is based on merely human rules they have been taught."

Again, heresy means choice. Just like Christ talked about blasphemy of the holy spirit when the pharisees, who knew about every sign that was to accompany the messiah, accused him of being possessed with an evil spirit, in full light of the miracles that he was performing before them.

Demons themselves believe, but they don't live the faith.

>>774236

You are one foot in total heresy right now. Think what you're saying before trying to teach others.

I found this old post on a blog that Dyer apparently had a feud with a decade ago.

https://triablogue.blogspot.com/2008/06/other-side-of-tracks.html

It seems like he switches denominations every few years.

>>774454

>So, here's a prime example for all my brow-beaten Protestant brothers and sisters of the massive stability you will achieve by rejecting sola Scriptura and total depravity:

>Protestant==>Roman Catholic==>Sedevacantist Catholic==>Eastern Orthodoxy==>Eastern Catholicism.

>What's even better, the "Fathers" sent him everywhere. Jay constantly rebuts what he thought Tradition said with what he now thinks Tradition says. Jay believes Tradition says X, Perry Robinson that is says Y, and Scott Hahn that it says Z.

top jej

>>774454

I just realized, he was a catechumen for two and a half years. Don't most converts only spend a year or so as catechumens?

>>774574

Is he still Eastern Catholic or did he revert back to Orthodoxy? Regardless that church shopping is damning. Just another piece of evidence that he treats his faith like an intellectual game rather than something to be lived.

>>774574

>For Dyer, the true church is just around the corner. And he keeps rediscovering the true church around every street corner as he walks around the block, from the one true church to the other one true church to the next one true church to the last one true church. It must be a bit a disorienting to be so dogmatic and vacillating at the same time.

Damn

>>774936

He goes with whatever denomination makes him appear to have the most edge. It is all about channel views.

>>774933

Looks like he went back to Orthodoxy, but his "official" story looks like

"His story goes: Calvinist convert to RCC, years studying Thomism, before finally rejecting everything else and converting to Orthodoxy. Joseph Farrell (pics related) converted him to Orthodoxy. Even though Dyer to this day recommends him as an expert on theology, Farrell left Orthodoxy years ago and now trumpets the gospel of the perennial intergalactic Nazi conspiracy."

from >>772516

it definitely puts Dyer in a perilous position to be such a flip-flopper for so many years

This was fun.

>>773640

>source?

He doesn’t come right out and say it, but he was/is deep in Farrell’s cult, which played big role in his conversion. Still cites him as an authoritative source quite frequently. Makes it all the more weird that Farrell left the faith. Here’s Jay’s testimony:

https://forums.catholic.com/t/response-to-james-kelley-eo-on-religious-presuppositions-and-the-patristic-view-of-hell-and-punishment-pt-1/126372

>>771510

You realize his videos would get taken down by Jewtube? He's redpilled on the JQ, he just calls them globalists instead.

ITT: Cathos hate him cause they ain't him.

>>776554

Then how is E. Michael Jones still around?

I literally cannot think of one video of EMJ's that doesn't mention Jews, except for that one time he was busy blowing up the SSPX.

>>776554

He barely talks about the JQ on his website.

>>773714

>I didn't see his Styx debate but he mopped the floor with JF.

He could have done much better in the JF debate, particularly in illustrating his point rather than stating his presuppositional premise over and over. For example, when JF was trying to debunk absolutism, he gave the example that he had, in his own mind, a concept of a square-circle e.g. the normal laws of geometry did not apply in this localized concept. Jay allowed him to make that proposition without a challenge, which was a huge missed opportunity.

The correct response would be, "You are lying; you have no internal concept of a square circle. The very idea is contradictory: circles have no sides, and squares have no radius. Being made in the image of God, every rational and cohesive idea in your mind is in accordance with Logos and thus incapable of violating the fundamental laws of logic." Or something to that effect. The fact that Jay let this slide, multiple times, made it seem like he didn't understand the consequences of the presuppositions he kept repeating.

>>776501

>Joseph farrel

>Nazi International: The Nazis' Postwar Plan to Control the Worlds of Science, Finance, Space and Conflict

jajajaja wtf is this