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For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

c6eb2c  No.767828

So I found this vid by an orthobro that I've been watching for a while and I honestly feel stunned that we have instances like this reported. I was under the assumption, as many of you are, that once you are in hell you are done for. But according to st. Macarius and pope Gregory the great even those in hell can be brought into the kingdom. Is this true?

a6b92e  No.767838

Yeah, this is what we generally believe. Those who are perfected upon death go to Paradise, those who are not go to Hades. Those in Paradise do not have the fullness of the experience of God, since they are without a body (therefore no "beatific vision"), and those in Hades (also known as Sheol) obviously suffer due to being cut off from God, but to different degrees. Both the pious Orthodox Christian who did not do sufficient penance, and the communist Jewish serial killer abortionist, go to Hades, where they continue down the path they had taken before - with its own bettering or worsening.

The particular judgement is not the final judgement, and not everyone who is in Sheol/Hades will be there forever. See 2 Maccabees 12:38-45 (where Judas prays for Israelites who had committed the horrible sin of idolatry) and Matthew 12:32 (where the Lord Himself tells us that there are sins that can be forgiven after death).

And it is true that the parable of Lazarus and the rich man tells us that there is a chasm between Hades and Paradise that cannot be crossed, but what is not possible for man is possible for God, and God in fact already did it when He went down into Hades to rescue those imprisoned.

The fathers do not all agree on who can be saved from Hades through our prayers, however. Some, like St. John Chrysostom, believe it only applies to pious Orthodox Christians with little sin in them. Others believe it can apply to anyone, although obviously someone with greater separation from God is more difficult to save. In all cases we must both acknowledge that Hades is not where we want to end up (as Hades will be thrown into the Gehenna, which is the eternal punishment, see Revelation 20:14) and that Christ's mercy and saving power is boundless. Pray for those who cannot help themselves anymore, whether because they are physically paralyzed (such as the paralytic) or because they are spirituall paralyzed (because they are in Hades).

I don't remember if he mentions it in the video, but on Pentecost we specifically have a prayer for those who are in Hell.


d5c5ea  No.767839

>>767835

A bit of theology, a bit of hope and a bit of private revelation.


a6b92e  No.767843

>>767835

Holy tradition, and the experience of the saints, but most primarily the holy scriptures. Things are revealed about Hades and Gehenna, although the exact nature of Hades (that it is not just "the grave", but a state where the souls suffer and await deliverance) does not get developped until the deuterocanonicals.

I'll add one thing to my other post - we believe that even Adam and Eve were rescued from "the grave", from Hades, from Hell. If even they could be rescued by Christ, no one can be hopeless about the fate of the dead, until the "era of mercy" ends (see 4 Ezra 7:100-115). Don't stop interceding for the world, both living and dead, and let God decide His judgement.


e7cbd1  No.767845

the absolute state of etherodoxy


621776  No.767860

>But according to st. Macarius and pope Gregory the great even those in hell can be brought into the kingdom. Is this true?

I think they are referring to the purgatory.

Once in hell in hell forever.

>>767838

Literally the purgatory.


a6b92e  No.767867

>>767860

Purgatory is that if someone dies with no mortal sin, but with either venial sin or worldly attachment, one is saved but must go through the fire of Purgatory first before entering Heaven.

The Orthodox doctrine of Hell is that those who end up there, whether because they had venial or grave sin, can be saved through our prayers (but won't necessarily be so, except for the Orthodox who have died with venial sin or worldly attachment). It is not a matter of "purification" or "getting ready to enter Heaven", as if there were a final point to theosis, a threshold where the angels say "yup, you can get in now". It is a matter of the soul being weighted down because it is not yet perfect like the Father is, which is true both for an Orthodox who died with worldly attachment, and a pagan priest who died the day after doing the weekly child sacrifice.

The hagiographies of St. Macarius and St. Gregory the Great do not refer to "Purgatory", but to "Hell", full stop. The hagiography of Pope Gregory was actually modified in the West because the doctrine of being saved from Hell was unacceptable.

Incidentally, here is a chapter of an Orthodox catechism on the subject of Hell: https://www.reddit.com/r/OrthodoxChristianity/comments/a7brnx/an_approach_of_orthodox_eschatology/


621776  No.767900

>>767867

>The hagiography of Pope Gregory was actually modified in the West because the doctrine of being saved from Hell was unacceptable

Or it was the Orthos who claimed such to avoid issues?

Anyway even if true then why don't you follow his advice on this?

>Epistle 9.12, "who can doubt that it is subject to the Apostolic See? Why, both our most religious lord the emperor, and our brother the Bishop of Constantinople continually acknowledge it."

And let's keep in mind Pope Gregory is basically the father of medieval Catholicism with all its traditions like gregorian chant for example.

He would never question the purgatory since in the west everyone believed it at least explicitly since the 3rd-4th century.

I don't get the mortal sin in orthodoxy. A mortal sin is a cut-off from God. If one dies in that state they are going to hell forever.

The east had always weird views about hell, starting with St. Gregory of Nyssa, who was heavily inspired by Origen.


c6eb2c  No.767910

>>767900

Does god's love for us cease when we go into hell or his love boundless? Do you really think not a single saint has prayed for those in hell and not been heard?

With god, all things are possible.


a6b92e  No.767916

>>767900

I really don't feel like engaging you if you're going to immediately turn the discussion to the topic of papal primacy. Not that I don't want to talk about it, but please be civil. We can take this to the QTDDTOT thread if you really want to talk about that now.

>Or it was the Orthos who claimed such to avoid issues?

It is the earlier version of the hagiography that depicts Emperor Trajan as being saved from Hell.

>And let's keep in mind Pope Gregory is basically the father of medieval Catholicism with all its traditions like gregorian chant for example.

Incidentally, he is also credited with the anaphora for the Liturgy of Presanctified Gifts.

>He would never question the purgatory since in the west everyone believed it at least explicitly since the 3rd-4th century.

I would argue Purgatory as a doctrine did not exist until the 12th century.

>I don't get the mortal sin in orthodoxy. A mortal sin is a cut-off from God. If one dies in that state they are going to hell forever.

We do not believe in "mortal sin" in that sense. At best you will hear of "capital sin" in Russian theology, but not "mortal sin". There is indeed sin that "leads unto death", that is grave enough to instantly kill the soul and can only be erased by repentance, but it does not mean one is necessarily eternally cut off from God. Repentance at the hour of death is possible; being saved by the intercession of the saints after death is possible. As far as I know, pretty much the only category of people whose eternal damnation is almost certain is apostates.


c90cb5  No.767917

>>767828

I've got a personal belief that at the Final Judgement of the Living and the Dead foretold in Revelation, it will be possible for people who were in Hell to be saved if they repent, because otherwise there's no point in re-judging everyone. I also think that history will go on after the events foretold in Revelation, and that God won't rest until every soul He created willingly accepts Him, though through what means He'll bring that end about I obviously have no idea. But I don't think that Hell as it currently exists is something humans are permitted to escape from, mostly because of the language Christ uses to describe it, ie "unquenchable fire", "the worm that does not die", "the chasm that cannot be crossed". There may, after the Second Coming, be a means through which damned humans can be saved, but in humanity's current relationship with God the notion just doesn't seem to be supported by Scripture.


621776  No.767924

>>767910

God love doesn't end. Our love in fact ends. When one dies in mortal sin he explicitly rejects God's love and He can't do nothing against your will.

We pray for everyone because we cannot know if someone is in hell. Nobody know except God.

>single saint has prayed for those in hell and not been heard?

Even if the saints did so to what could that avail?

The dude in hell made his own irrevocable choice, much like when some angels rebelled against God.

Chapter 18.— Of Those Who Fancy That, on Account of the Saints' Intercession, Man Shall Be Damned in the Last Judgment.

There are others, again, with whose opinions I have become acquainted in conversation, who, though they seem to reverence the holy Scriptures, are yet of reprehensible life, and who accordingly, in their own interest, attribute to God a still greater compassion towards men. For they acknowledge that it is truly predicted in the divine word that the wicked and unbelieving are worthy of punishment, but they assert that, when the judgment comes, mercy will prevail. For, say they, God, having compassion on them, will give them up to the prayers and intercessions of His saints. For if the saints used to pray for them when they suffered from their cruel hatred, how much more will they do so when they see them prostrate and humblesuppliants? For we cannot, they say, believe that the saints shall lose their bowels of compassion when they have attained the most perfect and complete holiness; so that they who, when still sinners, prayedfor their enemies, should now, when they are freed from sin, withhold from interceding for their suppliants. Or shall God refuse to listen to so many of His beloved children, when their holiness has purged their prayers of all hindrance to His answering them? And the passage of the psalm which is cited by those who admit that wicked men and infidels shall be punished for a long time, though in the end delivered from all sufferings, is claimed also by the persons we are now speaking of as making much more for them. The verse runs: Shall God forget to be gracious? Shall He in anger shut up His tender mercies? His anger, they say, would condemn all that are unworthy of everlasting happiness to endless punishment. But if He suffer them to be punished for a long time, or even at all, must He not shut up His tender mercies, which the Psalmist implies He will not do? For he does not say, Shall He in anger shut up His tender mercies for a long period? But he implies that He will not shut them up at all.

And they deny that thus God's threat of judgment is proved to be false even though He condemn no man, any more than we can say that His threat to overthrow Nineveh was false, though the destruction which was absolutely predicted was not accomplished. For He did not say, Nineveh shall be overthrown if they do not repent and amend their ways, but without any such condition He foretold that the city should be overthrown. And this prediction, they maintain, was true because God predicted the punishment which they deserved, although He was not to inflict it. For though He spared them on their repentance yet He was certainly aware that they would repent, and, notwithstanding, absolutely and definitely predicted that the city should be overthrown. This was true, they say, in the truth of severity, because they were worthy of it; but in respect of the compassion which checked His anger, so that He spared the suppliants from the punishment with which He had threatened the rebellious, it was not true. If, then, He spared those whom His own holy prophet was provoked at His sparing, how much more shall He spare those more wretched suppliants for whom all His saintsshall intercede? And they suppose that this conjecture of theirs is not hinted at in Scripture, for the sake of stimulating many to reformation of life through fear of very protracted or eternal sufferings, and of stimulating others to pray for those who have not reformed. However, they think that the divine oracles are not altogether silent on this point; for they ask to what purpose is it said, How great is Your goodness which You have hidden for them that fear You, if it be not to teach us that the great and hidden sweetness of God's mercy is concealed in order that men may fear? To the same purpose they think the apostle said, For God has concluded all men in unbelief, that He may have mercy upon all,Romans 11:32 signifying that no one should be condemned by God. And yet they who hold this opinion do not extend it to the acquittal or liberation of the devil and his angels. Their human tenderness is moved only towards men, and they plead chiefly their own cause, holding out false hopes of impunity to their own depraved lives by means of this quasi compassion of God to the whole race. Consequently they who promise this impunity even to the prince of the devils and his satellites make a still fuller exhibition of the mercy of God.


621776  No.767925

St. Augustine. City of God chapter 21

More and more I realise why you guys don't like him.

I like when you guys call us Platonists when it was Plato that had the idea the sufferings in hell were like medicine, Origen made some changes to it and then it spread around the eastern church.

On a related question, don't you guys belive hell is a state of the soul?


a830ba  No.767963

Can orthos explain to me how exactly their view on prayer for the dead isn't calvinism with extra steps? Here's my reasoning

1. If God can do something when we ask Him in prayer, then He can do it without or prayer

2. Some people go to hell

3. According to you, God can take people out of hell

4. Therefore, God doesn't want at least some people to be saved

Number 4 stands in contradiction to God's love torwards all of creation, so the only way to avoid it, you either have to deny number 3, which you can because of human free will to reject God, or deny number 2. But you do neither.


621776  No.767964

>>767916

>I would argue Purgatory as a doctrine did not exist until the 12th century.

Then you should read the western fathers.

>It is the earlier version of the hagiography that depicts Emperor Trajan as being saved from Hell.

Could you post a link or something?


ea6982  No.767984

File: c892dfc08a9193d⋯.jpg (754.89 KB, 1438x1402, 719:701, Screenshot_20190207-171144….jpg)

No

>>767835

By reading the Bible




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