/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>508486

>>766859

>Anything related to politics that doesn't actively involve the Catholic/Orthodox/Protestant churches should go here

But this topic actively involves the Catholic Church.

both Nazism and Communism are anathema; Fascism, Falangism, Iron Guard, Salazar’s views, etc…are ok but still in need of submitting to God as first and foremost act.

>>766855

It does condemn the Heidentum of the 3rd Reich and the eugenics program, against which the Catholic Church successfully fought.

Apart from that, it was mostly an admonishment to the remaining faithful not to be deceived by the governments lies.

It was a condemnation, yes. National Socialism as a system cannot coexist with a robust religiosity for the former sees the well being of the folk as the highest attainable good whereas the latter sees holiness as such. Racial issues should be subordinate to obedience to God—it is with this National Socialism, like all utopian ideologies, disagrees.

>>766855

maybe u should read it

>>766892

This.

Based Salazar though. God bless him.

>>766892

>are ok

Not remotely. The only economic/political system fully approved by the church is distributism.

>>767268

Communists and burgers btfo.

>>766901

>the former (natl socialism) sees the well being of the folk as the highest attainable good

Prove it

I could say the same about my college football team, but in reality they're non-competing

>>767243

false dichotomy

>>767268

https://mises.org/library/whats-wrong-distributism

>No one would think of preventing young Germans establishing a true ethnical community in a noble love of freedom and loyalty to their country. What We object to is the voluntary and systematic antagonism raised between national education and religious duty.

This line right here basically sums it up. Unfortunately, any new movement will always attract adherents of older movements who seek to ride the waves of change in an effort to push their cancerous, failed ideas. National Socialism was no different; neopagans, atheists, pantheists, occultists, and literal state-worshippers all tried to subvert the National Socialist movement, and they unfortunately gained enough popularity to make the Church justifiably worried. It's entirely possible to support a non-democratic government that preserves your nationality and prohibits usury without being anti-Christian, but as with any political ideology it's very important to remember that God and His Law come before all worldly matters.

>>767487

>https://mises.org/library/whats-wrong-distributism

Of course distributism can't be applied to an entire nation, and I didn't say it could. But it's the only ideology that truly aligns with the church, and it's applied in smaller christian communities.

I'm fine with living under any kind of government, as long there's religious freedom. Catholicism isn't a political religion at all. Our only responsibility is to render to the Caesar what is his.

>>767506

>>767521

Non-democracy and driving out the unbelievers seem to contradict what Jesus taught.

>>767578

>Of course distributism can't be applied to an entire nation

That's the premise

Do you mean people should just be charitable?

>>767587

>was executed because of Democracy

Uh, I don't know about that. I'm pretty sure the Sanhedrin wasn't elected.

>>767589

No, but the jewish mob voted to have a literal criminal (Barabas) set free so Jesus could be executed

>>767591

That wasn't a Democratic vote. It was an applause vote.

>>767595

Except it was a democratic vote. Applause vote or written vote, it doesn't matter because the jewish people decided to vote on the death of their king.

In no way, shape or form is God a democrat. Never was and never will.

>>767597

Yeah, ok … but do you believe this means that someone going to the polls in an American election can be compared to that? Do you honestly believe that Americans should not vote? What happened to giving unto Caeser?

>>767579

>jesus was a democrat

lmao yeah right power to the people amirite

>>767579

>Non-democracy and driving out the unbelievers seem to contradict what Jesus taught.

<no quotes

Ill hand you one; "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s, and God what is God’s"

>>767600

Personally I don't think the current Democratic regime that is running America into the ground deserves power. A collapse of the current established powers in America and an installation of a Christian Monarch is my dream. Until that happens, yes Christians are commanded to participate in this democracy. I would be calling God a liar if I told you he wanted open and violent revolution. Heck, back in the times of Jerimiah God called the Israelites to participate and assimilate in Babylon but not compromise their faith. This is acted upon in the book of Daniel. It is what every Christian should strive for.

So yes, give to Mammon what is Mammon's but that doesn't mean I or anyone has to like it. The problem with democracy is everyone is in charge. When everyone is in charge no one takes responsibility for when shit hits the fan. Why should they?

>It's not my fault the anti-abortion bill didn't pass, it was the other representatives that didn't vote for it.

>I guess we will just have to live with baby murder for the time being.

>we'll tackle it again…eventually

The problem with democracy is that when shit policy ruins a nation you distribute the blame across the representatives, but in a monarchy if shit turns sour you know who to blame. Thus giving thr monarch incentive to keep taxes low and not make shit policy.

But yeah, God isn't a Democrat. God is a Monarch through and through. Just imagine if God was a Democrat.

>I, God, Command thee to worship no other gids

<thats cool and all, God, but the people of Israel have spoken and they want to worship the golden calf again

>…ahh well…darn…I guess we will just have to vote on it again next year. I guess Moloch will have to be worshipped along side Me than

<*hand rubbing intensifies*

>>767587

Jesus was executed because He wanted to be sacrificed for the sins of humanity. Also, in a "christian" regime, I don't doubt you would marginalize or even execute unbelievers and heretics, which are the same reason Christ was executed, He considered himself God.

>>767591

Mob rule isn't democracy. My idea of democracy is giving the chance for everyone to speak out their opinions and let them be heard if what they talk about makes sense. It's not just letting them do or say whatever they want that will hurt others. The political term for mob rule is Ochlocracy.

>>767624

>no quotes

Sermon of the Mount, for one.

>>767634

Rome was worse than anything America could ever wish to be.

>God isn't a Democrat

I don't think He can be equated to political idelogies, but if I have to, God is a democrat and a liberal, He gives people full unrestrained freedom on earth, but His kingdom can only be entered by people who accept His love and love others as He have loved them.

>I, God, Command thee to worship no other gids

<thats cool and all, God, but the people of Israel have spoken and they want to worship the golden calf again

>…ahh well…darn…I guess we will just have to vote on it again next year. I guess Moloch will have to be worshipped along side Me than

This is literally what happened though. God never stopped people from sinning, but that doesn't mean that Moloch worshipers can be saved. He only tells people what is good for them. His kingdom is not of this earth.

>>767624

>driving out the unbelievers seem to contradict what Jesus taught.

In my country unbelievers were never driven out. What part of religious freedom did you miss? Only the public cult wasn't allowed.

>Non-democracy

The Church throughout the ages supported lots of undemocratic regimes including Salazar's.

Besides being a freemason spin off of the Greek democracy, it was democracy who got Jesus killed.

>>767667

>God is a democrat

Infinite All Knowing and All Just God needs the council of finite beings that He Himself created.

>and a liberal

*destroys Sodom and Gomorrha*

Nothing personal

>Also, in a "christian" regime, I don't doubt you would marginalize or even execute unbelievers and heretics,

If shit gets to a point that endangers the souls of other people then the state has the right full obligation of punishing them.

>which are the same reason Christ was executed, He considered himself God.

Except He didn't consider Himself God, He IS God and proved it several times.

>Sermon of the Mount, for one

The same sermon where he compared heavens as a kingdom (there was no democratic monarchies back then) and said whomever didn't love Him above anything else wasn't worthy of him.

>This is literally what happened though.

Along with punishments, like having to make sacrifices to God, thing they never needed to before, 40 years in the desert etc etc.

>>767667

>He gives people full unrestrained freedom on earth

He doesn't though. God has repeatedly intervened against people who are displeasing to him, notable examples include Soddom and King Herod.

>>767674

Mosques weren't allowed.

>The Church throughout the ages supported lots of undemocratic regimes including Salazar's

No, Vatican disagreed with some of his policies, but they signed a deal just like what Vatican did now with China. In the 60s catholics opposed him even more.

>it was democracy who got Jesus killed.

It wasn't democracy, it was mob rule. Pilate washed his hands.

>>767682

>>767682

But he never directly destroyed Rome or any of our wicked modern states. He destroyed Sodom and and Israel's enemies to send His message to the Jews. Now that the Word has become flesh, He wouldn't need to do it anymore. Also stop comparing the kingdom of heaven to the world, He created this world and intended it to be as is, but His kingdom is not of this world. He will punish the wicked, but not before their death.

>>767683

>Vatican disagreed with some of his policies

Source? Pope Pius XII even blesses Salazar and congratulated him on his success for lifting up Portugal from the mess we were in.

>the 60s catholics opposed him even more

Thanks to the colonial war the USA and the USSR forced us to fight.

Daily reminder that God outright said that his people shall have no King for he is the only King, but they will have Judges.

>>767707

<God appointed no king

>2 Samuel 5-8 New International Version (NIV)

David Becomes King Over Israel

>5 All the tribes of Israel came to David at Hebron and said, “We are your own flesh and blood. 2 In the past, while Saul was king over us, you were the one who led Israel on their military campaigns. And the Lord said to you, ‘You will shepherd my people Israel, and you will become their ruler.’”

>3 When all the elders of Israel had come to King David at Hebron, the king made a covenant with them at Hebron before the Lord, and they anointed David king over Israel.

>4 David was thirty years old when he became king, and he reigned forty years. 5 In Hebron he reigned over Judah seven years and six months, and in Jerusalem he reigned over all Israel and Judah thirty-three years.

>1 Samuel 15 King James Version (KJV)

Saul becomes King of Israel

>15 Samuel also said unto Saul, The Lord sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the Lord.

>2 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.

>3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Not even mentioning the numerous prophesies of God sending Israel a King. I don't want to overload a newfriend's mind like yours.

>>767689

>A literal mob of jews representing all of the jews voted to kill Jesus.

They intimidated pilate to kill jesus. This isn't democracy, this is mob intimidation.

>Just like how a mob a New Yorkers voted on behalf of all New Yorkers to legalize infanticide.

That's a democracy without logic. A democracy that justifies mob rule through votes. In an ideal democracy, the voice of the 1% should be taken into consideration as long as it's logical. They think it's fine to murder in the presence of those who consider it as murder. Let the babies' blood be on the hands of the murderers and those who voted for abortion legalization. Our responsibility as catholics is to vote against abortion.

I've never said that democracy can bring people to heaven. Hell, I even don't think any political system is able to do that. The only thing that can bring us closer to heaven are the love, faith, and hope within ourselves that we share with others. Therefore, democracy for me is the best political system there is. Democracy lets us freely speak out our opinions, practice our faith, and reach out for others.

>>767700

>Source?

Literally everywhere, including wikipedia. Salazar's ideology was repeatedly attacked by catholics for being against the social teachings of the church, causing poverty and suppression of human rights.

>>767708

Lord Christ is now our shepherd. The Word has become flesh. He doesn't need to appoint kings to rule over the Jews anymore because Christ is the one and only king.

>>767715

>jesus was a liberal

No, dude, Jesus isnt a liberal, nor a democrat, that's so painfully hard to hear and stupid.

>muh mosques

So you're a relativist then, crying for muh muslims if they dont get their precious mosques.

>democracy

the main problem with democracy is the notion that: All power comes from the people, which is heretical. And that whatever the "people" want is morally right, and what they don't want, is morally wrong. There are no absolutes, only the arbritrary whims of the "people", if they want abortion, let abortion be legalized! ( as happened in ireland ), and so on.

>>767707

Yeah, take that monarcucks! power to the people, america winnie the pooh yeah!

>>767487

>Prove it

The Reich government thoroughly attacked the Church, silenced Christian journalists, made public Christian worship illegal, and—which really exposes the true nature of the Nazi ideology—imprisoned thousands, and murdered hundreds, of Christians in the camps, such as Saint Maximilian Kolbe, Saint Teresa Benedicta and the Polish Martyrs.

>>767715

>This isn't democracy, this is mob intimidation.

That is exactly what democracy leads to by its very nature. Once you ascribe to the principle that "the majority decides," insanity itself, were it commonplace, would be held as a virtue.

>as long as it's logical.

And who decides that? The majority which believes that 1% is illogical de facto?

>He doesn't need to appoint kings to rule over the Jews anymore because Christ is the one and only king.

Yet actual medieval monarchies all based their legitimacy on the will of God, citing King Solomon who ruled with the guidance of God as their progenitor. Moreover, if democracy or some sort of Republicanism were truly qualitatively superior to monarchy, then why is the Kingdom of Heaven exactly that—a kingdom? Why would the Lord reign as King instead of President or Prime Minister? Why does the Lord continuously present Himself historically as an absolute monarch if monarchy is somehow an intrinsic evil?

>>767730

>>767707

Canonized monarchs

>Saint Louis

>Saint Ferdinand

>Saint Vladimir

>Saint Wenceslas

> others

Canonized presidents/prime ministers/party chairmen:

…

>>767738

Yes, i know that, i was being ironic, that americans tend to act like their masonic government is axxcuatuly the most christian ones and that tradional, catholic are incorrect and anti-christian lol

>>767715

>Salazar's ideology was repeatedly attacked by catholics for being against the social teachings of the church, causing poverty and suppression of human rights.

Wikipedia I figured.

I mean that's why Portugal didn't build thousands of elementary schools, hospitals, Reformed the universities and gave people a good life away from the poverty of the 30s. only the communists here claim we were a sad people and poor, while ironically they were the wealthiest here.

Also we got the blessing of a pope couldn't care less what some Marxist catholics (and there were a lot in here) say about him.

>against the social teachings of the church,

How

>causing poverty

In what universe? Portugal was laughed by the international community after the crap that the 1st Republic was.

People in my village had no money for shoes, they had to go to the city barefooted, and guess what, after the war everyone was living a good life compared to decades ago.

Salazar himself was poor as winnie the pooh even after leaving the government so yeah, perhaps he made everyone live a little better, while he had a shitty small house falling apart bit by bit. Anyway that was the only thing he left when he died along some small bills in his wallet.

>suppression of human rights.

<putting commies in a jail giving them food and heathcare when needed is bad

Yeha we should have left commies running around corrupting peoples minds like they did after the 25th of April.. That's the winnie the pooh miserable state my country is now.

>>767793

>Wikipedia I figured.

Various internet sources I could find actually. There isn't much info I could find about this man's regime.

>I mean that's why Portugal didn't build thousands of elementary schools, hospitals, Reformed the universities and gave people a good life away from the poverty of the 30s.

He held power way beyond the 30s. China, also a semi-fascist government, built a lot of "stuff", brought it's nation to "prosperity", and managed to keep "positivity" among it's citizens. However these peace and prosperity are just a facade, they're in a quite screwed up situation right now. Crumbling economy, waste of resource, and human rights violations are what they're famous for outside their own heavily controlled Chinese media.

>only the communists here claim we were a sad people and poor, while ironically they were the wealthiest here.

Yeah, the pro-CCP drones say the same thing. I'm not an economist, but all I can say is nation's economy is a delicate thing, sometimes it's not what it seems. You can make your people "feel" rich, like how China manipulated some things like it's currency. Also, you should thank those African colonies your nation exploited.

>commies

Define communists. Workers who asked for their rights?

I'm not saying that Salazar was a bad man at all, unlike those Chinese oligarch mafias. He was a controversial figure, and I don't doubt he was really dedicated to his country, he wanted nothing but the best for Portugal. However a person can be wrong on certain things, sometimes it just doesn't work. Also I wouldn't endorse colonialism.

>>767848

>He held power way beyond the 30s.

I know in the 60s people here lived a normal life.

>Crumbling economy

Except our economy was in heavens, dropped like shit after the revolution and even plundge even deeper after the Euro.

>Also, you should thank those African colonies your nation exploited.

<investing on the land and giving education to the tiggers is bad.

Ok lol.

>Define communists. Workers who asked for their rights?

No I mean rich fags.

Only the college students and the elites were communists.

The normal workers had a normal life since one of the regime standards was giving man enough money to sustain their family something Salazar valued.

>Also I wouldn't endorse colonialism.

Certainly they are doing great without us.

We even left all of our shit for them to use, unlike France and Belgium, but they ruined everything in a 30 year long civil war, well what could one expect from tiggers? The USA and the Russians played them well.

>>767683

I appreciate how you simply ignored Herod Agrippa being miraculously struck dead for allowing people to call him a god instead of spinning bull like that nonsense about Soddom's razing being solely for the benefit of Abraham's unborn descendants.

>>767848

>Also I wouldn't endorse colonialism.

Why not?

>>767857

>Except our economy was in heavens

>dropped like shit after the revolution and even plundge even deeper after the Euro

Maybe your country was not very rich to begin with, but Salazar was a good economist and he knew how to make it all fine, or look fine.

<investing on the land and giving education to the tiggers is bad.

The Chinese would say the same thing about Tibet and their African "business partners".

>Only the college students and the elites were communists.

Yeah, I know Salazar suppressed free speech.

>>768240

>We even left all of our shit for them to use

>but they ruined everything in a 30 year long civil war

That wouldn't fool me, I've watched Africa Adios. You imperialists left Africa abruptly in such a sorry state. You didn't assure that when you leave, a local dictator won't take over your place.

>>768240

Because I'm a third world nation citizen. I know that colonialism is full of lies.

>>768257

>I'm a third world nation citizen

So am I and if it weren't for colonialism we'd be a nation of pagan cannibal savages.

>>768257

You're wrong, portuguese colonies in Africa looked like european cities, but the UN said "muh freedom" like all you liberals say and ruined everything. Angola , for example had beautiful cities and good quality of life in the 60's, when they became indepedent, imediatelly it fell into civil war and genocide. Could Angola be indepedent? yes. But the way it was done, they were better off a colony of Portugal.

>>767268

I’m a distributist myself, but in case of ideology I would take a Salazar, a Codreanu, a Franco or a Mussolini over Hitler and Stalin.

>>768257

>, or look fine.

It was fine. We survived on our own without foreign help.

We were truly an independent nation.

>The Chinese would say the same thing about Tibet and their African "business partners".

Except we didn't massacred people because of ideology/race.

>Yeah, I know Salazar suppressed free speech.

So should I let people spread their errors with their stupid theories just because free speach? winnie the pooh it.

Imagine if the Church believed in free speach. We'd be all Arians by now.

>You imperialists

Are you a communist? What are you doing here?

>left Africa abruptly in such a sorry state.

Perhaps France, I don't know, but we left them everything and even the shit to extract oil which sustained the Angolan ecomony for decades.

>You didn't assure that when you leave, a local dictator won't take over your place.

I thought they wanted independence.

When my country became independent almost 1000 years ago it didn't need the help of castille to be a great nation.

>>768282

To some people, the bill of rights is like their ten commandments.

>>767722

I'm not political and neither is God when it comes to His creations on earth. God gave freedom to people, being a saint or a sinner are a choice given to everyone. You can't force people to become saints or believe in the things you find to be right.

>>767735

>That is exactly what democracy leads to by its very nature.

Causal fallacy. Mob rules when corruption happens.

>And who decides that?

Leaders and the court.

>Why would the Lord reign as King instead of President or Prime Minister?

Are we God?

>>768264

Of course Salazar's fascism isn't as bad as the rest. Still it's not the ideal government. In fact the ideal can't exist. Christians are bound to live in an imperfect world and under others' regime. Read the book of Revelation.

>>768282

>without foreign help

Without Africa's help?

>Except we didn't massacred people because of ideology/race.

No doubt, but the chinese don't massacre people outside china either.

>So should I let people spread their errors with their stupid theories just because free speach?

Yes, and it's the intellectual's job to refute them. Speech shouldn't be suppressed, but processed with logic. If your child says stupid things due to their lack of understanding, wouldn't you correct him?

>Imagine if the Church believed in free speach.

The church has always been. The church is consisted of theologians and philosophers who develop the dogma based on scripture, tradition, and logic from various levels. Everyone may give an input, and when it's sound, it may be taken into consideration.

>Are you a communist?

Are you an imperialist?

>Perhaps France, I don't know, but we left them everything and even the shit to extract oil which sustained the Angolan ecomony for decades.

I'm not talking about facilities, I'm talking about helping them maintaining peace and order while you're away.

>I thought they wanted independence.

Liberation should've been done gradually, not quickly and abruptly.

>When my country became independent almost 1000 years ago it didn't need the help of castille to be a great nation.

Africa is rife with wars and corruption, it's the nature of their people and the influence of the neighboring nations.

>>768286

How can something political be compared to something religious?

>>767715

>That's a democracy without logic

Or as it's more commonly known: a democracy.

>>768479

It's like how militant atheists have the same zeal when it comes to hating God. It's like how the pagans of old worshiped their leaders as gods. To secular burgers, muh constitution is their Torah. Anything changing or going agianst that is haram.

>>768490

The republic must ensure that every decision they make is logical, despite the consensus.

>>768491

I agree that politics should be secular and provide religious freedom.

>>768478

Yes God gave free will to his creation. Does that equate with God being a liberal? really? americanism ffs.

>free speech

He didnt mean free speech in the way you described it. He meant in a way that heresies and hurtful ideologies ( such as liberalism and americanism ) can't be allowed to be spread because of the damage it would cause on souls and society in general. You're right that ideolgies should be combated with debate. But the idea of allowing them to spread like wildfire in the public is absurd to me. Look at the west now. Liberalism has triumphed

>imperialist

sounds like marxist wording to me. If it weren't for "imperialism" my country would still be pagan. Thank God for imperialism!

>democracy

I have already told you that democracy ( at least liberal democracy ) is amoral and heretical. And "the republic" is doing nothing to combat the mob's calls for abortion, for example.

>>768478

>Without Africa's help?

Without America and Europe's help.

What are you trying to imply? Angola and Mozambique were as Portuguese as Lisbon or Oporto back then.

And we only discovered the hidden potential of Angola in the late 50s.

>No doubt, but the chinese don't massacre people outside china either.

Neither did we, even in the colonies of you don't consider them to be a part of Portugal.

>Yes, and it's the intellectual's job to refute them. Speech shouldn't be suppressed, but processed with logic. If your child says stupid things due to their lack of understanding, wouldn't you correct him?

What is propaganda? Communism spreads by propaganda by appealing to the feelings of people and such.

In debates communism has been btfo a billion times. Did that change anything? No. The existence of communist Russia and China and that basically every country in Europe still has a communist party is a proof that cancerous ideologies never go away.

>The church has always been. The church is consisted of theologians and philosophers who develop the dogma based on scripture, tradition, and logic from various levels. Everyone may give an input, and when it's sound, it may be taken into consideration.

Then become a priest and write a blood supporting Arius and see what happens to you.

Theologians have the liberty to discuss minor technicalities in theology, but once the church takes a stance on it they have to submit even if it is against their will.

That's not free speech by any definition.

>Are you an imperialist?

I'm the sense of the Marxist insult?

Yes I am. At least I'm not excommunicated by being one.

>I'm not talking about facilities, I'm talking about helping them maintaining peace and order while you're away.

Then what's the winnie the pooh point of being independent if we still have to inject our money and resources there?

>Liberation should've been done gradually, not quickly and abruptly.

But that was their wish, so rival movements could fight to death to be in charge.

>it's the nature of their people and the influence of the neighboring nations.

Yeah we can agree tiggers are dumb.

>>768528

>and write a book

Fixed