/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

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>>765698

>instead of reading the bible lets follow this guy who supports the very people jesus came to protest

OP is a faggot

sage and hide

>>765737

Tacit admission of btfo

>>765737

Literally btfo

Not only is this an argument that doesn't follow, this is a total lack of an argument.

How does the fact that scripture is finite connect to apostolic succession?

How does the doctrine of apostolic succession conflict with sola scriptura?

Where has apostolic succession EVER been taught as a completion of incomplete scripture, instead of a passing of authority?

Honest question from someone who was raised Protestant but is trying to find some answers and the right way to be a Christian….what does this post mean? What is apostolic succession and why/how do I submit to it?

>>765760

Evangelical answer

https://www.gotquestions.org/apostolic-succession.html

>>765760

Basically apostolic succession is in layman terms. Every Catholic and orthodox Bishop you see today were ordinated by a bishop, that Bishop was ordinated by another Bishop that Bishop was ordinated by………… and that bishop was ordinated by one of the 12 Apostles in an unbroken succession since the year 33 AD.

>why/how do I submit to it?

By becoming Catholic.

>>765766

How does one become Catholic?

>>765811

Contact your diocese and ask to enroll in the next RCIA program. It's a 6 month program where you go once a week and they teach you the Catholic faith. For the first 2/3 I believe it isn't committal so you don't have to be confirmed Catholic if you aren't ready, but it is the One True Church founded by Jesus Christ.

>>765757

The argument is that the apostles carried on what Christ taught them that was not written in the Bible, hence you must submit to the infallibility of sacred tradition and not solely sacred scripture.

>>765879

How do I find out what my diocese is?

Thank you for answering my questions.

>>765899

Where do you live anon?

Search on Google [city/district name)] diocese. The check their Web page and send them an email or call them.

>>765919

I live in the Twin Cities in Minnesota. What is a diocese, what does diocese mean? I'll be sure to google it.

>>765945

Its an administrative division.

Each Bishop gets his own diocese, basically a set of parishes, like a religious county or district and the Bishop has to take care of the people in that place.

I'm not American so I don't know where that is. Try to look for Catholic dioceses in Minnesota or turn on your location on Google don't forget to turn off later because Jews and NSA and search Catholic dioceses near me or even better Catholic parishes near me.

>>765899

What >>765919 said. But be wary, anon, there is a catechetical crisis in many parts of the country where those who seek the Catholic faith are taught heterodox beliefs. This is the consequence of modernism. To find out the true dogmatic positions of the Catholic Church that have been held for millennia, my favorite YouTube channels are Sensus Fidelium and increasingly TheFatimaCenter. You can't go wrong with either. When you go to RCIA I got an American Standard Bible and the latest Catechism. Study the Catechism, it's the easiest way to know the Church's teaching in totality. But beware of the latest statements on the death penalty as Francis is pretty much compromised. See https://youtu.be/rvYrTDzOL8I for the traditional position on the death penalty. God bless you anon, and try to go to the Traditional Latin Mass to build your devotion.

>>765698

No, we do not deny that Christ said other things and we do not believe that the bible is an exhaustive collection of everything that Christ said in his 3 years of ministry. Rather, what we are saying is that what has been preserved of it is in the bible and we submit ourselves to that as our ultimate authority.

>>765956

Thanks. I have an old Catholic friend of mine from long ago that I called up and they're going to start taking me to mass and I'm going to talk to them about all this, so I have some local help. Plus they're former protestants like me so they understand my struggle.

The NSA is already monitoring me personally lol so I don't even bother trying to avoid them. (I was investigated by the FBI for certain reasons a few years ago).

>>765945

Which city? I'm in ND. Perhaps the best traditional order in St. Paul is All Saints. It's an FSSP Church and they only do traditional Latin masses there and teach the traditional beliefs of the Church.

>>765968

I live in the south side down by Apple Valley. I don't go up into the cities very much, I'm more of a suburbs kind of guy. I'm just going to go to the one my friends go to, I'm not sure which one but I'll find out more about it once I know.

>>765972

Well good luck to you anon. I have a friend who just moved to Fargo where I am from St. Paul and he said that he went to All Saints for a decade and loved that Church. I'll say a prayer for you.

>>765977

I am in great need of prayer at the moment so I appreciate that. God bless.

>>765965

This anon is quite right >>765959

As you probably noticed 99% of the catholics don't even care about what the church stands for and this applies to the teachers of the RCIA (you might find it boring since it's basically a club to make people feel welcome in a cringy way. The idea is good but the implentation is terrible) and priests themselves. At the same time get to know the faith better and watch what the other anon said.

The catechism of the Catholic Church is good, but buy a version printed before 2018, so that it won't include Pope Francis personal opinion on death penalty (he shouldn't have done it since he is putting his own opinion on a catechism but oh well) you are not forced to accept it was pope Benedict said when he was a cardinal.

As for the bible there was a stupid gay translation which the church already forbade but Jews might still be selling it on stores. Buy the Ignatius Bible or the DRA if your into KJV kind of English.

If there's a mass in latin nearby go for it, but keep in mind if there's a mass in English it's perfectly ok for you to go. Go with your gut, but I prefer the old one since it's more deep and profound.

Best of luck my man.

>>765981

Actually my one Catholic friend is literally the only Catholic I've ever met in my whole life. Everything I know about Catholicism is something I've either heard from a protestant or seen on TV. And we all know who is behind both those things, I think.

I'm honestly nervous/curious about my first mass, I have no idea what to expect. (Don't tell me please I don't want to ruin the surprise.) I know there's some community stuff after or something I'm looking forward to that. I'm honestly curious, I feel like I'm about to meet Hitler himself. Catholics are the most hated people in the world it seems like sometimes.

>This kills the Sola Scriptura

Explain how.

To be true, Sola Scriptura doesn't need scripture to contain everything that can be known about Christ, it just needs scripture to be uniquely authoritative and to contain everything that is necessary for salvation.

>Everything I know about Catholicism is something I've either heard from a protestant or seen on TV.

I wish these TV guys actually studied the Catholic theology instead of giving false witness.

>>766183

How do you know which scripture is uniquely authoritative and that it contains everything necessary for salvation?

Tradition. That's how you know.

>>766183

Because everything necessary for salvation was not written down but carried on through the sacred tradition in apostolic succession. The Bible is not the be all end all. That is not to say that it is unimportant, it is still the infallible word of God, but so is the tradition that the apostles passed down to their successors in the early Church which has been carried on until the present day.

>>766281

>Because everything necessary for salvation was not written down but carried on through the sacred tradition in apostolic succession.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJV — All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

>>766284

Thanks for proving the Catholic doctrine one the infallibility of the Bible.

You realise that doesn't imply there's other things besides the bible like tradition right?

Even St. Paul says that on ephesians.

>>765698

How does this get rid of Sola Scripture?

>>766347

OP doesn’t actually know what Sola Scriptura is.

>>766284

Correct. Verse 17 is a final clause, which is also called a purposive clause. Perfect meaning complete. When God intends for his word to do something, his word does what he intended.

Isaiah 55:11 — So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

>>766337

>everything necessary for salvation was not written down

>Scripture enables you to be thoroughly furnished unto all good works

Do you see the contradiction?

>>766368

The Scripture has the ten commandments. Which is basically the total human morality.

But the point is another.

How is one supposed to believe in the Trinity and the christological definitions without a tradition?

History tells us that those who took the scriptures and ignored the Tradition of the church for the the Arian meme, the nestorian meme, etc…

Do you really think that you can understand the whole Bible and not make mistakes? Because one of those mistakes might take you down there and we all make mistakes.

Thus the need of an ecclesiastical body inspired all the times by the Holy Spirit so that men might not fall into error.

1 Timothy 3:15

But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

And let's take a look at your verses.

>2 Timothy 3:16

>All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice:

Yes scripture is used to teach men, to reprove (every heretic in history was reproven with the Scripture), to correct (and those same heretics were corrected with the same scripture they misinterpreted) and instruct in justice yes of course. And who does all this? Individual humans? One migh think some teaching is wrong and another might find it correct thus why protestants have split ed in thousands of denominations.

Now if it is the Church founded by Christ and inspired by the Holy Ghost his members must teach the Truth.

>2 Timothy 3:17

>so that the man of God may be perfect, having been trained for every good work.

Yes absolute truth. A Christian man is perfected and grows in charity because the scriptures say so.

(And btw when Paul wrote this the only scripture there was was the old testament and some of Paul's letter.

If Timothy followed your advice he had to reject the Gospels, the latter epistles and Revelation since they went scripture. So it was a bad advice that Paul gave to Timothy. He could have reject the rest of the new testament if he thought like you).

And the same scripture tells we must obey the Church and not to have our personal interpretations.

And it no way it claims the bible only.

I already quoted 1 Timothy 3:15 as a proof of the former, but here goes more

>Titus 2:15

>Speak and exhort and argue these things with all authority. Let no one despise you.

>2 Thessalonians 3:6

>But we strongly caution you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to draw yourselves away from every brother who is walking in disorder and not according to the tradition that they received from us.

As for the latter

>2 Peter 1:20-21

Understanding this first: That no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost.

>>766380

I'm not debating any of these concepts:

>The Scripture has the ten commandments. Which is basically the total human morality.

>How is one supposed to believe in the Trinity and the christological definitions without a tradition?

>Do you really think that you can understand the whole Bible and not make mistakes?

>the need of an ecclesiastical body inspired all the times by the Holy Spirit so that men might not fall into error.

>If Timothy followed your advice he had to reject the Gospels, the latter epistles and Revelation since they went scripture

>And it no way it claims the bible only.

I'm debating this:

>everything necessary for salvation was not written down

because the bible says

<All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Can the man of God be made perfect from scripture?

>>766386

The bible by itself is nothing. Interpretated by catholics is truth, interpreted by Mormons its heresy.

So to answer your question its not scripture alone that saves a man. Because men can't discover or be right about everything the bible says. We need teachers and a tradition.

I mean the bible do tells us to obey the Church so yes it has everything one needs to know to be saved.

>>766394

I gather from your long misdirections from these easy yes or no answers that your answer is "no". Is that right?

>>766347

Catholics kinda like muslims with the bible is this topic, because It seems that they're can only do two things regarding Sola Scriptura: misrepresent it or use isegesis (In some cases accuse someone of isegesis so people will assume papists' interpolation is better).

John 21:25 has nothing to do with doctrines, people.

>>766386

The bible doesn't define itself. No table of contents or book list was given by the prophets. Which books made it in and which books got rejected was a product of tradition. Divinely guided, but not scripture alone since the scripture alone doesn't tell you what the scripture alone even consists of.

>>766782

Useless argument

The doctrine of sola scriptura doesn't allege to find the Canon internally.

Additionally, you're advocating a blind trust in canonization, but those scholars were transparent about their decision making criteria. They didn't intend for obedience by mere declaration.

If Peter was the first pope, and he got rebuked by Paul, does that make Paul the first Protestant?

>>766789

Am I a Protestant for rebuking Francis' clear error on the death penalty?

>>766380

>If Timothy followed your advice he had to reject the Gospels, the latter epistles and Revelation

No because it says "all scripture." That includes all scripture.

>He could have reject the rest of the new testament if he thought like you).

Actually it says "all scripture" there, which includes the New Testament.

>Do you really think that you can understand the whole Bible and not make mistakes?

Nobody can do that by themselves. But John 14:16-17 says that the Holy Spirit will dwell in those that believe and are saved and that He will be in us.

John 16:13-14 also tells us:

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

So then the Holy Spirit will guide the individual into all truth and teach the meaning of scripture to us. See further:

1 Corinthians 2:12-13

Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1 John 2:27 — But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

>Thus the need of an ecclesiastical body inspired all the times by the Holy Spirit so that men might not fall into error.

The real need is to be saved and believe so that the Holy Spirit can teach us all things from his word.

1 John 5:9-10 — If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

So its all about believing the record that God gave us and the Holy Spirit indwelling the saved believer and guiding them to all truth, reminding them of whatsoever Jesus has told us in his word.

John 14:26 — But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Amen.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 — For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

>>765698

Does the Bible give evidence for sola scriptura? Does the Bible indicate how it ought to be interpreted?

>>767547

It's not a bad move actually. Protestants are the ones that always point to the Bible to make their arguments, all he's doing is arguing on their playing field.

<apostolic succession is authority

Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. - Acts 17:11

>>767617

your proof-text in no way discredits the idea of apostolic authority, especially as the berean Jews hadn't accepted the apostolic authority in the first place (quite literally)

>>767633

it means you cannot solely rely on scripture for the teachings of Jesus Christ, you must also turn to the Apostle's and their tradition to receive the full fruits of the true faith

>>767635

It just says Jesus did other things not listed in the gospels.

>>767636

which is very important because Jesus Christ is God, right? Wouldn't you like to know what Jesus Christ did that was not listed in the Gospels? Doesn't the same scripture also say that there are many teachings that Christ gave to the Apostle's?

Don't the Apostle's also remind their churches to await them and hear their teachings - and, to rely on them alongside the Gospel?

come on

>>767650

> Wouldn't you like to know what Jesus Christ did that was not listed in the Gospels?

Course we know what He did. He killed a kid for a laugh and made clay birds. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infancy_Gospel_of_Thomas