/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>761769

Wtwtp are we supposed to discuss? God gave us a command. Those that obey love God. Those that don't, don't.

[/thread]

What about video games on the sabbath. Ye or nay?

>>761769

Jesus fulfilled the Law. Jesus is the Sabbath. Rest in Him.

>>761773

Yeah but most denims out this commandment lightly and just discard it. I think discussion about it is needed.

You need to understand -why- there is a commandment to honor the Sabbath.

The Sabbath was the last day of creation. Therefore the Hebrews consecrated the 7th day of the week to honor the last day of creation, thus honoring all of the creation and, mystically, having communion with God's act of creation by resting with Him.

But we are Christians. We know that the true last day of creation is the 8th day, Easter, the day Jesus was resurrected and the new creation was established. This final day of creation will be fully fulfilled at the last judgement, when the entire world will be transfigured and made anew, but until then we already begin to experience the new creation in the Church.

Under the Law of Moses, the last day of creation was known to be the 7th, the Sabbath, therefore they honored Saturday. Under the law of faith, we know that the last day of creation is the 8th, the Lord's Day, therefore we honor Sunday.

Christ fulfilled the Sabbath when He laid in the tomb, but He rose back to life after this. Now is not the time to rest anymore, but to be resurrected. Nonetheless, Saturday is a holy day, even if it is not the day we commemorate weekly anymore, and so, at least in Orthodoxy, we do not fast on either Saturday or Sunday (except for once or twice in the year) and we dedicate Saturday to praying for the dead, for those who are fulfilling the Sabbath by laying in the tomb too.

>>761787

What? How would that make the 8th day the Sabbath?

>>761789

The 8th day is the Lord's Day. This is the day that we, as Christians, must commemorate. The Jews commemorated the 7th day, the Sabbath, because for them it was the last day of creation, but for us the 8th day is the last day of creation.

That was part of the covenant specifically with the Hebrews after the Exodus. As Christians (and gentiles) we're heirs to the promises to Abraham, not Moses, and part of the New Covenant.

>>761792

Why?

>>761808

… Why what?

>>761820

Why is it the last day of creation.

>>761775

>>761775

>>761775

>>761775

>>761775

embeciles. what about this

>>761827

You have read the Bible, since you are quoting from it. That's a weird question to ask.

On the Lord's Day: see Isaiah 2:6-22; Ezekiel 30; Joel 2:1-11; Amos 8:9-14; Zephaniah 1:2-18,2:1-3… This is the day of final judgement, where all nations will be gathered and will be given a final punishment.

On this day being the day of the new creation, where the world will end and change to a new mode of existence: see Isaiah 24:16-23,34:1-4,51,52:1-12,65; Ezekiel 40-48; Joel 3-4; Micah 5; Haggai 2; Zachariah 12-14; Malachi 3; Psalm 102; Matthew 24:26-35; Mark 13:24-27; Luke 21:25-27; 1 Corinthians 7:25-40; 2 Peter 3:1-13; Revelation 20:7-15,21:1-8…

In the Bible, the number 7 symbolizes perfection. This page shows some examples where this number is used symbolically to give significance to something: https://www.patheos.com/blogs/christiancrier/2014/09/26/what-does-the-number-seven-7-mean-or-represent-in-the-bible/

The number 8, however, represents "beyond perfection", in other words, God. Children are circumcised 8 days after birth to represent being grafted onto the people of God, for instance. In Gematria (a numerological system to convert words to numbers, known to the Biblical authors as it is used in the book of Revelation to turn "Nero Caesar" into "666"), "Jesus" is "888".

Early Christians called the day of worship the "Day of the Lord" (Revelation 1:10) and recognized that there is an ultimate day after the 7th. (Hebrews 3:7-19,4:1-13) Their day of worship, where they had communion, was the first day of the week, that is, the day after the Sabbath. (Acts 2:46,20:7) More importantly, the Gospels are careful to portray Jesus's final time in Jerusalem as being a week long, with Him being dead during the Sabbath and resurrecting on the next day.

Finally, I want to point out that Jesus was resurrected with a glorified, spiritual body. The resurrection -has- begun, Jesus is the first-born among the resurrected, we will simply follow all at once at His second coming. (Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:18; Revelation 1:4) But when Jesus was resurrected, the world was judged - whether we resurrect with Him to partake of divine life, or we resurrect for eternal punishment, is up to whether we graft ourselves onto His death and resurrection here and now, through Baptism. (Romans 6:5-11) Therefore, even if the fullness of the Lord's Day is going to come at the end of the world, the Lord's Day has already come upon us in the resurrection of Jesus, and, when we partake of Christ's Body and Blood on Sunday, we receive our salvation or our condemnation. (1 Corinthians 10:14-17,11:17-34)

>>761787

Why not change from a 7 to an 8-day week then?

>>761845

Because the "8th" day is really the 1st day. A week in the calendar was 7 days long then and it is 7 days long now. Even the Acts of the Apostles simply call the day of worship the 1st day of the week. We're not going to mess up the calendar just to adjust to the Resurrection, especially since the 8th day being the 1st day is significant - it is not just another day atop the 7 others, but the day of the new creation. It is a day of beginning, like the 1st day of creation was. St. Basil the Great calls it the day "without evening".

>>761847

>Even the Acts of the Apostles simply call the day of worship the 1st day of the week.

Acts 20:7 isn't a prescription.

>We're not going to mess up the calendar just to adjust to the Resurrection

But the roman empire did have an 8-day week back in the first century (the nundinal cycle) so there would have been nothing to mess up there.

The Resurrection being on the 1st day (as well as Pentecost) is certainly meaningful, but it does not exactly justify the changing of times and seasons by moving the Sabbath to Sunday, especially considering that the day of Firstfruits and Pentecost did always fall on a Sunday (unless you go by the talmudic interpretation) and it didn't invalidate the Saturday Sabbath.

(I suppose I'm just somewhat distressed by the Church deciding to do away with even the remembrance of some of the festivals instituted by God and inventing their own ones instead, then making them mandatory)

ANYWAYS, is the specific day one celebrates the Sabbath on even the intended topic of this thread?

Should we not first discuss the question Do you believe that we should keep a weekly day of rest, where we also do not force others to work, as is commanded in the ten commandments? And what about playing the vidya on it, eh?

>>761775

Nay.

>>761868

>And what about playing the vidya on it, eh?

>Isaiah 58:13-14

<“If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath

and from doing as you please on my holy day, if you call the Sabbath a delight and the Lord’s holy day honorable, and if you honor it by not going your own way and not doing as you please or speaking idle words, then you will find your joy in the Lord, and I will cause you to ride in triumph on the heights of the land and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob.” For the mouth of the Lord has spoken."

Is this one of those questions about whether the sabbath is actually Saturday or Sunday? If so, are we sinning for having Church service on the wrong day?

>>761843

>Their day of worship, where they had communion, was the first day of the week

Fake and gay. The early Christians celebrated a feast on the day of resurrection, but still kept the Sabbath as a day of worship and rest. The first to change that were those of the church in Rome, by the decree of Constantine and because they wanted to move away from Judaism, and yet the rest of Christendom continued to keep the Sabbath for a long time.

>For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries on the sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this.

>Socrates Scholasticus, Book 5

>>761896

>The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria.

>Sozomen, Ecclesiastical History, book 7

The Socrates book is also named "Ecclesiastical History".

Should the Sabbath be observed on Saturday?

Should the Sabbath be observed on Sunday?

Should the Sabbath be observed on both those days?

What are we supposed to do on Sabbath days?

What are we permitted to do on Sabbath days?

What are we not supposed to do on Sabbath days?

What are we forbidden to do on Sabbath days?

What are we supposed to do on non-Sabbath days?

What are we permitted to do on non-Sabbath days?

What are we not supposed to do on non-Sabbath days?

What are we forbidden to do on non-Sabbath days?

>>761887

When taking the whole chapter as context, I'm thinking that the sabbath mentioned is specifically the day of atonement, since that is the only feast day where the people were commanded to humble themselves, which was often interpreted as fasting from food and water.

>Lev 16:29-31

>And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourneth among you: For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD. It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever.

>>761896

Pretty interesting.

The Didache prescribes that the Lord's supper is to be celebrated on the Lord's day. Now I wonder if the term refers to every Sunday or the day of Resurrection.

>>761902

Don't know. While I do believe that Sabbath should be observed on the 7th day, I don't think having services on Sunday (assuming it is not the Sabbath) is sinful or even bad. There is a mention that the weekly Sabbath is to be a holy gathering together (Leviticus 23:3) but the commandment in Exodus just tells you not to do work and not to cause others to do work in order to keep the day holy. What constitutes work may be a topic of discussion, but we can at least tell, that the Rabbis didn't get it right, considering that Jesus explicitly didn't follow their tradition in John 9:14-16

>And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes. Then again the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. He said unto them, He put clay upon mine eyes, and I washed, and do see. Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them.

(I believe this refers to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activities_prohibited_on_Shabbat#Kneading/amalgamation )

What you are supposed to do on every day though, is to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and love your neighbour as yourself.

>>761896

>The first to change that were those of the church in Rome, by the decree of Constantine

Bullshit conspiracy crap.

If that were the case, the rest of the Sees would have rose in protest, and churches outside the Empire wouldnt have been affected(and the non-chalcedonians and assyrians would have been saturday worshipping)

>>761898

>The Socrates book is also named "Ecclesiastical History"

How about actually READING it, instead of parroting the dishonest, history-manipulating lies of adventists.

Those quotes are about the Easter Controversy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quartodecimanism), which besides not being reated to the subject at hand, was also almost 300 years before Constantine legalized Christianity, and 250 before he was even born.

>>761933

>Those quotes are about the Easter Controversy

At the beginning of the chapter he talks about the Quartodecimanism, but later he leaves that subject and begins to compare the differences between the religious customs of the different churches and to comment on that, moment in which he touches on the Sabbath subject.

>Bullshit conspiracy crap

Hey, I'm not saying that it was Constantine who started all this, the church of Rome has always had more gentiles than the other churches, Constantine only accelerated a process that was already underway for years, in fact, his civil decree came out in the fourth century, and Socrates, the historian, lived in the fifth.

>and churches outside the Empire wouldnt have been affected

So you are telling me that the churches outside the empire did not receive influence or pressure from their companions inside the empire?

>>761868

>The Resurrection being on the 1st day (as well as Pentecost) is certainly meaningful, but it does not exactly justify the changing of times and seasons by moving the Sabbath to Sunday

… The Sabbath is on Saturday. Not Sunday. I thought I made it clear.

You can always look at a Greek calendar if you don't believe me.

>Do you believe that we should keep a weekly day of rest, where we also do not force others to work, as is commanded in the ten commandments?

The Ten Commandments were given to the Jews on Mount Sinai. They are great moral rules to follow but they must be re-interpreted in light of Christ. Hence why we celebrate the Lord's Day but not the Sabbath.

>>761896

Sigh. I won't entertain a Judaizer.

>>761902

>Should the Sabbath be observed on Saturday?

No.

>Should the Sabbath be observed on Sunday?

No.

>Should the Sabbath be observed on both those days?

No.

>What are we supposed to do on Sabbath days?

Remember the creation in Genesis. Remember the Harrowing of Hell. Pray for the dead.

>What are we permitted to do on Sabbath days?

Christian things as usual.

>What are we not supposed to do on Sabbath days?

Observe the Sabbath of the Jews like a filthy Judaizer (unless it is for cultural reasons, as for the Ethiopians and Eritreans).

>What are we forbidden to do on Sabbath days?

Being a heretic for one.

>What are we supposed to do on non-Sabbath days?

Christian things as usual. Go to liturgy on the Lord's Day.

>What are we permitted to do on non-Sabbath days?

Christian things as usual.

>What are we not supposed to do on non-Sabbath days?

Non-Christian things.

>What are we forbidden to do on non-Sabbath days?

… Definitely non-Christian things.

>>762056

Yes, if you believe that we must follow the Sabbath of the Jews, you are a Judaizer. No different from claiming that we must be circumcised or that we must abstain from impure food.

>>761956

>At the beginning of the chapter he talks about the Quartodecimanism, but later he leaves that subject and begins to compare the differences between the religious customs of the different churches and to comment on that, moment in which he touches on the Sabbath subject.

Yeah, but that entire segment of that chapter, and especially the parts before and after this bit, are pretty much about what people do before, during, and after the festival, so it's reasonable to say it's about what people do during Easter.

>Hey, I'm not saying that it was Constantine who started all this, the church of Rome has always had more gentiles than the other churches, Constantine only accelerated a process that was already underway for years

Which process?

>in fact, his civil decree came out in the fourth century, and Socrates, the historian, lived in the fifth.

What decree?

There is no document going "you do Mass on sunday now".

The only one he gives on the subject is telling pagans and christians to stop being at each other's throats, since they are romans, and they even both find sunday to be special.

>So you are telling me that the churches outside the empire did not receive influence or pressure from their companions inside the empire?

Would be hard to do so, especially for parts like Armenia(that dont even do Christmas), India, or Persia(they developed culturally distinct inside the Persian Empire, and their reaction in the Council of Seleucia-Ctesiphon was "Niceea doesn't concern us, since it was a roman synod, but we agree with the christology")

>>762069

>that dont even do Christmas

Minor correction. They do Christmas and Theophany as a single feast day, on the 6th of January. It seems this was the practice of the early Church but the Nativity was re-calculated to be 9 months after the Annunciation, so the 25th of December, while Theophany was kept on the 6th of January.

Some people have to work on Sunday and are lucky to even to attend Mass on, a Sunday.

Paying the bills requires employment and telling employers you won't work Sunday means they can hire the person who will.

>>762046

>… The Sabbath is on Saturday. Not Sunday. I thought I made it clear.

>You can always look at a Greek calendar if you don't believe me.

That is not the point. The Sabbath is the decreed day of rest and assembly. By removing these observances from that day and assigning them to another, you are in effect moving the Sabbath.

A name in itself has no meaning. You can, after all, call yourself a Christian, while following all the tenets of Satanism.

>be me

>be Christian

>Christian means follower of Christ

>Find Christ observed 7th day of week as the day of rest / holy day

>Do the same as Christ did

>Literally following Christ's example

I don't care about any theology crap, I'll follow Christ's example and that's good enough for me.

It's in the scriptures that Jewish covenant laws were not binding. The Jerusalem council in Acts was pretty clear of all that was required of Gentiles: Don't drink blood, don't eat food sacrificed to idols, and stay free from sexual immorality (Acts 15:19-21). You think they didn't think this through and simply forgot about the Sabbath or Circumcision.. or whatever other pattern one could follow Jesus in?

No. It's a Council held none other than by the Apostles themselves! There's never been anything like it since. Of course they thought it through. These weren't chumps..or your Pastor Fred making things up willy nilly. Because it was also the Holy Spirit working through them.

Judaizers were precisely the guys who said you had to do everything Jesus did. They preached Patternism, rather than anything to do with the importance of Covenants and what was still binding. And St. Paul continually got on people's cases for this very thing… and over and over and over again screamed at the top of his lungs about the crucial importance of the new covenant.

>>762317

>Judaizers

The word jew came from the English bible translation in the 17th century, and meant "person from Judea".

A warring tribe called the Ashkenazis looked at different religions in the early centuries A.D. and selected the religion of the Scribes and Pharisees (who had rejected Christ). The tribe converted to their new religion and subsequently revised and renamed it "Judaism" and continue to write religious books of various laws to follow it known as "The Talmud".

The were so successful that today many people actually call them "jews" as if they are people from Judea, and they have managed to obtain the land of Judea also.

See Rev2:9, and Rev3:9 for the TL;DR

The word "jew" is used ambiguously to refer to "a member of the Ashkenazi tribe and blood line" or "a person of Judea".

>>762313

Based.

>>762317

>Judaizers were precisely the guys who said you had to do everything Jesus did.

So… Christians?

Many Christians hold to the Lord's Day, which is similar to the Sabbath. Don't work, don't go shopping unless you didn't plan ahead and you absolutely have to. Spend the day reading your bible or a devotional, fellowship, deepen your relationship with God. The Sabbath law is part of the moral law, stretching back to the Creation account in Gen 1, and therefore applies to all people (just like the rest of the 10 commandments). It is generally accepted that acts of mercy, necessity, and emergency are allowed. So if your job is a pastor, you can work on the Lord's Day (just like how the priests worked on the Sabbath), or if you are a police office or a bus driver (I would argue public transport is a necessity in most cities) then you can work on the Lord's Day.

I don't really know what you want to discuss or not. Whether we should adhere to the Lord's Day? Well Gen 1 and Ex 20 are pretty clear. As for it being on a Sunday, that was generally the consensus of the early church, and John makes reference to the Lord's Day in Revelation. If you are convinced that you should hold the day on Saturday then gl finding a good church that's open on Saturday (hint: SDA are not good).

antinomians need not apply.

>>762313

>I don't care about any theology crap, I'll follow Christ's example and that's good enough for me.

You don't care about theology?

>Theology: The study of the nature of God and religious truth; rational inquiry into religious questions.

>study the nature of God

You don't want to know God on a deeper level?

Mark 2:23-28

>>762816

If you're a Trinitarian you'll follow the Holy Spirit (through the apostles) as well.

>>763054

The Holy Spirit can't contradict itself.

>>763111

What contradiction? We're under the new covenant, not the old, and as a gentile I'm not party to the old covenant anyway - it was only for Hebrews from Moses until the crucifixion. The Holy Spirit through the apostles at the council at Jerusalem said what rules gentiles should follow.

>>763214

First, the ten commandments were not part of the old covenant. Jesus encouraged His disciples to keep the law (John 14:21) and so did the apostles (James 2:10). The ceremonial law was no longer necessary, because its purpose had already been concluded, but God's Law was not (Matthew 5:18).

Second, you are misinterpreting that verse. In that verse, James explains which of the laws of Moses, the ceremonial laws, should still be obeyed. The Sabbath is not a ceremonial law, so it is not mentioned, just as almost no one of the other nine commandments is mentioned.

Third, the word "Christian" literally means "Little Christs", I don't really know where you got it from that the text meant not to imitate Christ, if He himself says so that we follow his example (1 Peter 1:15-16). To contradict that would be to say that the Holy Spirit contradicts itself, since the apostles were guided by it.

Matthew 5

>17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Gym on Sabbath day, yes or no?

>>765027

Going to the gym on the Sabbath makes you meditate on God's infinite love and mercy?

>>765030

Yes, every rep for Him

>For Catholics it is not the slightest difficulty. "All power is given Me in heaven and on earth; as the Father sent Me so I also send you," said our Divine Lord in giving His tremendous commission to His Apostles. "He that heareth you heareth Me." We have in the authoritative voice of the Church the voice of Christ Himself. The Church is above the Bible; and this transference of Sabbath observance from Saturday to Sunday is proof positive of that fact. Deny the authority of the Church and you have no adequate or reasonable explanation or justification for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday in the Third - Protestant Fourth - Commandment of God. As the Rev. Mr. Smith rightly points out: "The Jewish Sabbath is not Sunday, the Lord's Day. Christians are all wrong in speaking of the Sabbath as Sunday." The Christians who so speak are "Bible Christians," those who make the Bible the sole rule of Faith; and the Bible is silent on Sunday observance, it speaks only of Sabbath observance. The Lord's Day - Dies Dominica - is the term used always in the Missal and the Breviary. It occurs in the Bible once (Apoc. 1.10;) in Acts xx. 7 and 1 Cor. xvi., 2 there is a reference to "the first day of the week;" but in none of these is there the remotest intimation that henceforth the first day is to take the place of the seventh. That is the crux of the whole question, what authority does the Bible give for the change? And that difficulty Mr. Smith and his critics, though pious and effusive and vaguely eloquent about many things, have each and all sedulously evaded. If affects very materially and very intimately the question of the proper observance of the Lord's Day.

-Catholic Record of London, Ontario Sep 1 1923

>>765032

Reps for Jesus!

>>769951

>And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

<Daniel 7:25