/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

first things first, faith is simply an old word for trust; and if one is trusting themselves to Christ, placing their trust in His work on the cross, they have a saving trust, and a correct one; for there is no other trust that is acceptable to God; Jesus being The Way in that Way, Truth, and Life

second question about the soul and spirit is interesting, but i'm not sure why you're hung up on it since they're often used synonymously, though there are some distinctions you could study by starting with Christ speaking to the greatest commandment to love God with all one's heart, soul, mind and strength – but i would suggest that of more import is another area where Scripture says that man is spiritually dead until God regenerates/resurrects that spirit and enables him to put trust in Christ; God the Holy Spirit joining with man's spirit so that the believer becomes one with God just as the Father, Son and Spirit are One

lastly, i may be missing something here bro; but i really can't quite grasp why you don't understand what Life means

God is the sole subsistent Being, the only One who is Alive by His own volition, thus He IS Life… and so by extension, anyone joined to Him is made alive, and then empowered to do the deeds of Life which were preordained for him from before the beginning

this would have nothing to do with you eschewing entropy and death by your own volition, but rather God empowering you to turn (repent) from the idolatrous self-worshipping, self-determination that is the desire of the natural spiritually dead man, and instead place your belief in the work of Christ

and while that seems to have gone full circle as the hippies say, that's kinda where it's at; if you repent and believe in Christ who is Life, you have the saving Faith required to please God, and since none of this was a work of your own hand, all glory goes to Him

~

sorry if i didn't cover all your questions, i enjoyed your exploration of this, but i kinda thought to just focus my attention on clearing away some of the clutter :3

I'm not qualified enough to answer this, so I'll just bump it and give some channels for you to check out:

https://www.youtube.com/user/orthodoxstephen

https://www.youtube.com/user/tednottingham

https://www.youtube.com/user/NicodemosHagiorite

https://www.youtube.com/user/otElders

>>753390

>I have left all my pagan assassinations

I see what you’re trying to do there but you should have some in your life so you can try to point them to Christ. Show them how you’re supposed to act, if you will

>>753445

I honestly have no problem with exploring, confronting, and associating with anything and everything but at the time I am just intensely focused on Christianity. For awhile I was in a period of "everything is redundant, I just keep coming across the same ideas restated again and again", but after diving into Christianity I'm actually learning about new things and making progress in my understanding again. I will return to them with what new truths I have learned but for now I got to avoid pagans. Besides that I must admit that I have been pressured into a kind of thought-bubble where I'm not allowed to talk to anyone and where I've even been told I'm only allowed to read the Bible but I had them tell me which passage they were basing that on, disputed about it, and they eventually admitted I could read books based on the Bible as well. Some of my new Christian friends just really want me to isolate myself from anything else.

>>753419

Is there a passage in the Bible saying something like god being an ocean of life? An infinite abundance to draw upon?

Also the part where you speak about being spiritually dead. I just interpret that as man's will vs the will of the all-knowing, all-powerful, perfect god. Aka we must be humble enough to submit ourselves to his will rather than our own so we might not error anymore.

If I am deeply interested in Christianity right now, and I am looking to the Bible for its Truth, and I recognize in the person of Christ the concept of a Perfect Man whom I would wish to know and accept as my savior and guide (being that by his very definition he is a man without sin, perfect in his ways, and so an absolutely trustworthy savior), am I yet saved?

My current plan is the following:

1. Imprint a KJV into my soul so I have a copy there to study and refer to whenever needed, so that I might be armed with The Word of God to help me solve problems of life and penetrate into the secrets of the Mysteries.

2. Develop a personal relationship with Christ (AND NOT BE DECEIVED BY FALSE GNOSIS / FALSE LIGHT).

A lot of the the time it's taking me, a lot of the caution and clarity of thought, is all so I don't end up deceived.

I also feel I have had a relation with God and the Holy Spirit for a long time but I'm thinking of staring into the light of mind (astral light) and seeing if an angel (messenger of God) might manifest to me as to give me further instruction in a personal way that I might have a deeper relation to God. As it is right now I feel that God speaks to me through circumstances, events, people, dreams, visions, etc. and his Word reaches me through any medium in fact (but it must be recognized intuitively and I must have an open heart to receive). I just consider that there is a possibility to take things so much further that I might know God all the better.

I feel that my spirit (the will) is pointed in the direction of Christ (god, the All). Could it be that this pointedness is evidence for my salvation? Maybe not as I imagine I could waiver. However the Bible speaks of saved Christians waivering and doubting does it not, and a battle between the old man and the new man (his human/animal nature vs the holy spirit)?

Also very important; once saved, always saved, correct? So at some point, somehow, I am saved. I don't know if that comes at the moment of death and I have been told no, that you can be saved far before that, but I am not sure and have to see if the scripture supports that. I wish I could identify that exact moment where I am well and truly saved.

>>753447

>Is there a passage in the Bible saying something like god being an ocean of life? An infinite abundance to draw upon?

you mean like James 1:17 "Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow."?

there's quite a few similar statements, but i'm not placing the 'ocean of life' bit

as to your interpretation of spiritual deadness being an allusion to man's will vs the will of our omniscient, omnipresent God; that's not really what a plain reading of the texts is gonna give you, since from The Fall man has been dead in trespasses and sin - and while that does include man's wiflull opposition to He Who IS Life; thus rendering him dead and 'in love with death' (Prov 8:36); it speaks more to man being without volition, literally incapable of choosing Life unless God empowers Him to do so through resurrection, turning a heart of stone to one of flesh

https://biblehub.com/genesis/6-5.htm (pre-flood)

https://biblehub.com/genesis/8-21.htm (post-flood)

https://biblehub.com/john/5-25.htm

https://biblehub.com/ephesians/2-1.htm

https://biblehub.com/colossians/2-13.htm

>>753390

Whew, be careful not to burn out on all that or stumble over your own logic!

I, like you, come from a Pagan past and for me, I know that God wouldn’t have wasted all his time chasing me and being patient with me for that many years for it to go to waste. Given your devotion, I would assume the same for you.

Plus - God cannot lie!

>>753465

>"Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow."?

No. I think it literally said ocean in it or something like it.

>>753472

>>753390

Kind of off-topic, but I would like to know what it was that turned you away from paganism. And also what specific kind of paganism you were associated with.

>>753390

>I left all my former pagan associations behind some months ago

And you're proud of this?

Remember, if there is no love in you all your works are for nothing.

Seems to me you're in this for entirely selfish reasons.

First of all you are not becoming a christian to be "saved"

You do it because you love God and Jesus.

If you don't have that, your faith is like a currency you're trying to throw into a vending machine and expecting salvation to pop out of it.

Not how it works.

Also, if you love God, if you reaaallly love Him, you don't expect anything from Him. You accept whatever he has in store for you.

Becoming a christian in order to be saved is completely egocentric. Cutting off your friends because they might "look bad" at the final judgement is incredibly selfish and loveless.

Get some inner character development going, you are not being a good person right now, and yes, it matters.

>>753390

If your primary concern is in learning the genuine saving faith, then I highly recommend that you go back and read the writings of the earliest christian writers in order to make sure that your theology is in line with theirs. Scripture is, indeed, essential, and a perfect place to start, yet even in earliest centuries you had various heresies such as pelegianism, the idea that one could be worthy of salvation of their own works/merit, nestorianism, the notion that Christ was two distinct persons, God and man, and not one, and arianism, the heresy that Jesus was merely a divine messenger that nearly dominated the true faith in the 4th century and has seen resurgence in modern times in parts of the pentecostal movement. All of these heresies sprung up from people who trusted their personal interpretation rather than holding fast to the traditions they recieved, as Paul says in 2 Thessolonians 2:15. Therefore, I recommend that you begin with the Didache, a 1st century guide to the christian faith, and then move on to the epistles of Irenaeous, Justin Martyr, and Polycarp, all of whom lived in the second century and the last of whom is traditionally believed to have been a direct disciple of John. These episles should give you a clear idea of what the earliest christians believed in regards to topics that are not universally agreed upon in modern christendom, such as the necessity of charity and the strict avoidance/repentance of sin and the authority of the church. I pray you discern well friend!

Life is communion with God, Who is Love. Or rather, "life" is the uncreated grace of God that gives us existence and purpose. God created us so that He may share His Trinitarian love with us, and this is "life".

Maybe it would be good to first look at what "death" is. "Death" is separation from God. "Death" does not have an existence in itself but it is a symptom of the disease we have contracted when Adam used his free will to disobey God. "Death" is an unnatural state, according to which the body decays, ceases to function, and rots, while the soul is imprisoned in Hell, weakened and bound by its own sins. Communion with God is severed (but not completely - otherwise we would cease to exist), and so we do not have "life" anymore.

With that said, let me cite the Creed:

>And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, and Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke by the Prophets . . .

And what my catechism says about what "salvation" is, since that is your thread title:

<Q: What is redemption or ransom?

>A: Ransom is the payment by which slaves and captives obtained freedom, and by which criminals were spared from punishment. In the Old Testament, ransom designated an amount of money paid by the Jews for the first-born. Consequently, those children who were consecrated to the divine ministery in the Temple were exempt from serving in the Temple. As such, ransom is a payment to liberate those who are not able to obtian it by their own means.

>Following the original sin, man became a prisoner of the devil and suffered the punishment for his sins. Christ, being without sin and dying for us on the cross, liberates us from the consequences of original sin, including death, and destroys the power of the devil over man.

Have you ever felt blissfulness and love? That is a very small foretaste of the Kingdom of God, given to us to motivate us to move toward it. Have you ever felt despair and sorrow? That is a very small foretaste of the Gehenna, given to us to motivate us to avoid it. I am not talking about these passionate, pleasurable feelings such as being "happy" to gorge yourself on fast food, or wallowing in self-pity. I am talking about these innocent and genuine feelings that one feels sometimes in their life, such as when one gets married or when one's friend passes away.

>>753447

St. Isaac the Syrian said:

>As a handful of sand thrown into the ocean, so are the sins of all flesh as compared with the mind of God.

Maybe you're thinking of that?

There are also many verses in the Bible where the Holy Spirit is called the water of life, and as such it is also called a river of life flowing from God.

>>754277

Yes it is.

>If you are a Christian who is saved please tell me anon how it is that you know you are saved and how I might also be saved. It is at present a tremendously complicated matter for me.

Hm. Here is some more content from my catechisms (warning, this will be long):

<Q: What does the Son of God save us from?

>A: The Son of God came down on earth to save men:

>- from sin;

>- from the curse;

>- from death;

>- from the power of the devil.

<Q: What is sin?

>Sin is lawlessness. (1 Joh 3:4) St. John of Damascus writes that "sin is the voluntary departure of that which is in accord with nature toward that which is against nature". St. Theophylact of Ohrid defines sin as "the distortion of the goal that was designated for man according to his nature." As such there are two complementary aspects in sin: legislative (transgression of the law and of the will of God) and against nature (departure from the natural behavior that God implated in us).

<Q: What is the curse and what are the consequences of the fall of man?

>A: The consequences of the fall are the divine curse. It is the accusation of evil by the righteous judgement of God, and the punishment of man who does not wish to reject evil. We must not understand the curse to be the revenge of God in response to the infringement of His will. Sin is self-destructive. As a free being, man has done an unnatural choice by imposing a deficient mode of existence onto his nature. The purpose of the curse is to heal man through humility and repentance, it is to put man into a situation that corresponds to his fallen state so that he may not burn under the rays of divine love.

>The consequences of the fall are manifested in the change of:

>- the relationship between God and man:

>Having sinned, man pushed God away from himself. St. Philaret of Moscow says that "man has stopped the influx of divine grace within himself". As a result, he cuts himself off from the intimate union with his Creator, Whose grace becomes external to man. He ceases to feel love and joy in the presence of God, but rather he feels fear. (Genesis 3:10) Man cannot see the face of God anymore (Exodus 33:20) and becomes hostile to God. (Romans 5:10) God's attitude toward man becomes one of wrath, because there is no fellowship between righteousness and lawlessness, between light and darkness. (2 Corinthians 6:14) Because of their covenant with the devil, men have become sons of disobedience. (Ephesians 5:6)

>- the nature of man:

>Originally, the spirit was directed toward God, the soul was subjected to the spirit and the body was the obedient weapon of the soul. Sin has destroyed the rightful hierarchy between spirit, soul, and body. After the end of the influx of divine grace, the spirit became like an inversed mirror. Rather than reflecting God and drawing from His power, it began to draw fom the power of the soul. The spirit is darkened and man decides to hide from an omnipresent God! (Genesis 3:8) He canot distinguish good from evil anymore. The soul becomes parasitic to the body. It tries in vain to fulfill its needs through corporeal ways. (If we become sad, we start eating or drinking.) The passions appear. The body begins to depend on its environment. Man is plunged into inner disaccord. The flesh has desires contrary to the spirit, and the spirit has desires contrary to the flesh; they have become contrary to one another. (Galatians 5:17) Because man was not made self-sufficient and has cut himself off from the source of grace, his life force begins to run out so that he begins to know corruption. His essence begins to suffer from illness, sorrow, exhaustion, thirst, hunger… Work loses its creative joy. The woman gives birth in pain. The corruption of the essence and the disintegration of the life force of the soul ultimately lead man to death. It is the most heavy consequence of sin.

>-the relationship between men:

>Sin also cuts off the intimate union between Adam and Eve. Each withdraws within themself. They begin to feel shame, something they had not know before. (Genesis 3:7) The shame of nudity signifies the severance of personal relationships, the negation of love, the necessity to protect oneself from the danger that is the other person. As such, the fall leads to alienation, mutual isolation, mistrust, and hostility between men.

>-the relationship between man and the world:

>God has created the univese for man and man was created for Him. Adam was introduced to the newly created world as a king in his palace. (Genesis 1:28) Due to man's central position in the world, his fall was a worldwide catastrophe. Adam was the mediator of the divine actions for all creatures. His spiritual state defined the state of all thigs. The whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together. (Romans 8:22) Man has lost the power over the world, which runs away from obeying its masters just as he runs away from obeying his own. Creatures begin to take revenge on man. The earth brings forth thorns and thistles. (Genesis 3:18)

<Q: What is death?

>A: At the crucial moment of human history, Eve reminds the snake the commandment of God, with an alteration: “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’ ” The snake objects: “You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” (Genesis 3:4-5) Diabolically, the snake was right. Adam and Eve did not die corporeally immediately after eating the fruit. But they died spiritually, having cut themselves off from the Source of life. Indeed, there are two deaths: death of the body and death of the soul.

>Bodily death is the separation between the body and the soul. The dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:7) Death of the soul is the separation between the soul and God. The soul is eternal, it will never disappear but it can die by privating itself from the light of divine grace, from joy and happiness, by remaining in the state of darkness, of sorrow and suffering.

>The apparition of death manifests the divine healing of the fallen man, because sin accumulates. If death were not there to end the eathly existence of man, he would become like the demons by perfecting himself in evil. By making the tree of life inaccessible, God kicks Adam and Eve out of Paradise so that they may not eat of it and perpetuate the state of spiritual misery. The imminence of death opens the way of repentance to man.

<Q: Who is Satan or the devil?

>A: He is one of the Archangels who has decided to become better than the Lord. He became prideful and jealous of God, to the point he has fallen from the heavens and cut himself off from his Creator. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. (Revelation 12:9)

>"Satan" means "adversary", "the one who resists". He is the adversary of men and angels, but not of God, Whom he is unable to resist. "Devil" means "slanderer". Jesus Christ calls him a murderer from the beginning. (John 8:44) The devil will never repeent and he will be thrown in the everlasting fire prepared for him and his angels. (Matthew 25:41)

<Q: Why did God come down from the heavens?

>A: St. Athanasius of Alexandria says that "the Word of God became a man so that we may become gods; He made Himself visible in the body so that we may know the invisible Father, and He suffered the violence of men so that we may inherit incorruptibility".

>St. Irenaeus of Lyons speaks of "Jesus Christ Who, because of His superabundant love, became what we are so that we may become what He is."

<Q: How does the Lord Jesus Christ accomplish our salvation?

>A: The Son of God accomplished our salvation by His incarnation, His teaching, His life, His death, His resurrection, and His glorious ascension.

<Q: How did He do it by His incarnation?

>A: Through the incarnation, the Son of God has united the human and divine natures without confusion, without change, without division, and without separation. In this union in one Christ, surprising even for the angels, the divinity has healed the fallen humanity of Adam and so of all men. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. (1 Corinthians 15:21-22)

<Q: How did He do it by His teaching?

>A: The teaching of Christ on salvation and blissful life is expressed in the Gospel of the Kingdom. This unchanged teaching is still proclaimed by the Holy Church. It helps us toward salvation if we accept it with all our heart.

<Q: How did He do it by His life?

>Q: The life of the Lord leads toward salvation if we imitate Him spiritually: let us acquire the emotions, will, and Spirit of Jesus Christ, either directly or by imitating spiritually the lives of His saints. "Therefore I urge you, imitate me", says the Apostle Paul. (1 Corinthians 4:16)

<Q: How did He do it by His death?

>A: Through death, the Lord destroyed him who had the power of death, that is, the devil. (Hebrews 2:14) The death of the Lord leads us to salvation if we enter His Church through Baptism which symbolizes the death and resurrection of Christ. Three immersions in cold water symbolize His death and His stay in Hell for three days. The emergence from water symbolizes His glorrious resurrection. Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (Romans 6:3-4)

>The death of the Lord leads us to salvation if we eat His true and pure Body and drink His true and pure Blood through the sacrament of the Holy Eucharist which is to be accomplished until His second and glorious coming. For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes. (1 Corinthians 11:23-26)

<Q: How did He do it by His resurrection?

>A: Having destroyd the gates of Hell (1 Peter 3:19) and liberated the souls of the righteous, the Lord Jesus Christ destroyed death and opened for all repentant men the entrance to Heaven, where the thief entered first. (Luke 23:43) Through His resurrection, all me will be resurrected in the flesh on the Final and Great Day of Judgement. The impious will go into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (Matthew 25:46)

<Q: How did He do it by His ascension?

>A: Through the ascension, the Lord Jesus Christ resurrects as a man, rises up and elevates our human nature into Himself, above all heavens and sits to the right of the Father. Thus men can become partakers of the divine nature (2 Peter 1:4), meaning gods by grace.

<Q: How can we participate to the death of Christ?

>A: We participate to the suffering of the Son of God:

>- by sincere faith;

>- by the holy Sacraments which hide and contain the power of the suffering and death of Jesus Christ (Romans 6:3; 1 Corinthians 11:26);

>- by the crucifixion of the flesh with its desires and passions (Galatians 2:24). St. Paul the Apostle said: "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me." (Galatians 2:20)

. . .

I am now translating something from my other catechism, give me some time.

> If you are a Christian who is saved please tell me anon how it is that you know you are saved and how I might also be saved. It is at present a tremendously complicated matter for me.

It is said in Romans 10:9-10

>If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Alright, from my other catechism. Hopefully this is helpful for you, OP. But again this isn't from a Protestant perspective and I assume you are Protestant.

<D) THE WAY OF THE KINGDOM

>In the time of the Old Covenant of Sinai, when the people of God was walking through the desert towad the Promised Land, it was faithfulness to the Law, obedience to the commandments of God, that kept this people on the right way. "The law was our tutor to bring us to Christ". (Galatians 3:24)

>With the New Covenant, we discover a new way that this tutor was leading us to. The Law was the necessary preparation, the preliminary stage that we must pass through to discover this new way. Indeed, when Jesus told His Apostles: "Where I go you know, and the way you know", and Thomas asked Him: “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”, Jesus answered: “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life." (John 14:4-6) As such, the way leading to the Kingdom is not something, it is not a code, a list of commandments, it is Somebody, a person, Jesus Himself, the Christ, the Son of God. To follow this Way, we need not obey a law anymore, but unite ourselves to this person, be joined to Christ, put our trust in Him, believe in Him: this is what we call faith: "After faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." (Galatians 3:25)

<E) FAITH

>Two healings that the evangelists Mark and Luke tell us about will help us understand what is faith:

<The epileptic demoniac (Mark 9:14-29):

>A man whose child was possessed by a demon and had seizures, rolling himself on the ground, throwing himself into water and into fire, and who had asked the disciples of Jesus to heal his son, to no avail, addressed the Master Himself by asking Him:

>"If You can…"

>Jesus answered: "If you can! All things are possible to him who believes.”

>The father of the child exclaims: "I believe; help my unbelief.”

>The entire distress, but also the entire hope of this man, is contained in this exclamation; and esus chased away the impure spirit which, after a last convulsion and a great cry, left the child. In spite of his weakness and doubts, this man put all his trust in Jesus the Savior Who, then, saved his child from the torments of the demon.

<The centurion and his servant (Luke 7:1-10):

>Similarly, a Roman officer who had a gravely ill servant came to ask Jesus to heal him. Jesus agrees to come visit the sick one. But the officer tells Him that He does not need to go: "I also am a man placed under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes. But I am not worthy that You should enter under my roof, say the word, and my servant will be healed." The pagan officer felt the omnipotence of God in Jesus, and his words filled Jesus with admiration: "I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel!" (even as it was the chosen people), and in this very instant the servant was healed.

>The centurion's trust in Christ was sch that he guesses that His power is that of the Creator Himself. This is what Simon Peter recognied in his answer to Jesus, when He asked His disciples: "But who do you say that I am?"—"You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” (Matthew 16:15-16)

>"All things are possible to him who believes" is what Jesus said to the father of the epileptic son, but it does not mean that the believers uses the divine power to impress other men with miracles for his own glory. It means that the man who puts his trust in Christ exists his human limits, is liberated from his earthly restraints, from his contradictions, because, through faith, he is united to the One who he recognizes as a man and as God, and that he is now carried by Christ to the Kingdom of God. This is salvation. And it is faith that saves: "Your faith has made you well", Jesus tells the bleeding woman. He tells "Only believe" to Jairus, the chief of the synagogue, whose daughter had just died. (Matthew 9:22 and Mark 5:36) Faith therefore opens the gates of the Kingdom. It is by a freely chosen act that man joins himself to Christ and so is led by Christ into His Kingdom.

<The good thief on the cross (Luke 23:40-43):

>When the thief on the cross, nailed next to Jesus on wood very much like His, recognizes in Jesus the King, the Christ of Israel entering into His Divine Kingdom through death, and that, moribund like Him, he cries out with confidence and faith: "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom", Jesus answers: "Today you will be with Me in Paradise". Faith saved this murderer from true death: by dying, he entes into true life: "He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die." (John 11:25-26)

>>>The Child: The good thief died on his cross like Jesus did. So how can you say that it is his faith that saved him from death?

>>>The Elder: There are two lives. The old life, the one we receive by coming into this world, which is the life of the one who is called by St. Paul the "man of earth". This life needs to be discarded sooner or later, because it is short. For the thief, it ended on the cross. And then there is the new life, the true life, the life of God, eternal life, divine life, which we receive in this world already through faith and baptsm: ths s what Jesus calls the second birth. This life has no end, it is the eternal life that the Lord Jesus already gives in this world to those who believe in Him. When the thief believed in Jesus and told him: "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom", he was born to this new life, against which the death of our body has no power. He was born to the life of the citizens of the Kingdom of God; this is why Jesus tells him: "Today you will be with Me in Paradise." True life begins in this world with faith, and blossoms beyond death in the Kingdom of God: this is the life that Jesus promises for His people in the New Covenant.

<F) THE NEW COVENANT AND THE DEIFICATION OF MAN

>Now we can perceive what the New Covenant is. It is not only an agreement between God and man, a mere exchange of promises, an alliance between two parties. The New Covenant is more than that, it is an intimate union, nearly marital, between God and man. This total union between the divine and the human, prefigurated in the Old Testament, is fulfilled in the peson of Jesus Chist, God made man, true God and true man.

>When the Son of God became a man, when the "Logos" or Word became flesh, by coming to dwell in the womb of the Virgin Mary to give bith to the child Jesus, the divine united itself to the human. God came toward man: the Son of God steps toward men to visit them.

>When a man puts his faith in Jesus Christ, Christ gives him His Holy Spirit and, with Him, the Life of God: the human is united to the divine. The first step was God participating to humanity, it was God becoming a man. The second step, it is man participating to the divine through the gift of God which is given by Christ to those who believe in Him: Jesus Christ gives God to man and man thus becomes god.

>>>The Child: If men could become gods, there would be many gods or half-gods. What you are saying here is paganism!

>>>The Elder: At sunset, the windows of a house become bright and red because they reflect the sunlight, but there are not many Suns. There is only one Sun; but each window, if it is in the right place, can reflect its light and become like a small Sun. The light shining from each window is not produced by the window and does not belong to it. It is the one light coming from the one Sun that makes each window into an image of the Sun.

>>>Likewise, each man, through faith, puts himself in a situation where he receives the Light of God, the Holy Spirit sent by Christ, and he shines forth this Divine Light, he is "divinized" or "deified" by the one God Who gives Himself to him, enlightens him, penetrates him, permeates him with His light, transforms him with the presence of His Holy Spiit. This is the New Covenant, meaning the union between God and man. The God Who is made man gives God to the man who has faith in Him.

>>754277

I don't even call myself a Christian nor is my intention to become a Christian (don't it may end up happening), rather, I study everything and seek the truth. Christianity as it turns out is a boatload of truth so far. You seem to be implying that egocentrism is somehow bad btw.

>>754223

>Kind of off-topic, but I would like to know what it was that turned you away from paganism. And also what specific kind of paganism you were associated with.

Nothing turned me away from Paganism. I just realized at some point that Christianity is all the good stuff from Paganism (e.g. Neoplatonism) plus some more good stuff and that I ought to respect that and to study Christianity more.

If I wanted to try to separate paganism from Christianity, it's really hard to do, as both are tangled together so much. This is not being fair to paganism at all but an oversimplification would be something like this: ignorance separates the pagan from the Christian.

99% of Christianity is all composed of ideas & concepts found in other religions/philosophies. It just adds grace and salvation and for me showed so much of the love of god that I didn't see before.

Even stuff like the trinity goes back to Pythagoras.

Basically what ended up happening to me is I came to the realization, through careful study, that Christianity is "the occidental tradition" in a sense. The monks had preserved the pagan world for me, they knew all about the past knowledge, and they also knew and understood the importance of Christ and his message to the world.

There isn't a major divide between the religions in terms of content. It is very narrow, very specific things that define them and make them irreconcilable. The rest is a lot of ideas shared in common.

>>754241

>And you're proud of this?

Not sure what you mean by this. I was mostly driven away by a few of them trying to kill me. I plan on coming back later (to the more sane ones) after maybe those certain troublesome individuals are dead or in prison or have found a new obsession and therefore can't bother me. If this all confuses you here's a hint: ONA

>Remember, if there is no love in you all your works are for nothing.

Don't see the relevance.

>Seems to me you're in this for entirely selfish reasons.

My only reason for being in this is that Christianity deeply interests me. I don't care about community, people, acceptance of man, getting a woman, career, or any other stuff that might motivate people to get into Christianity. I am the kind of person who is driven by knowledge and by visions/divine guidance leading me places in life. Those are the reasons I do what I do. You seem to be implying btw that "selfishness" is somehow bad, in which case I'd recommend you to read Ayn Rand The Virtue of Selfishness.

>First of all you are not becoming a christian to be "saved"

I don't call myself a Christian and I have no idea really if I am "becoming a Christian" or not. All I can say is I've read the KJV, talked with a lot of Christians, looked into many Christian books, and greatly appreciate the new insights and the deeper understanding and love for God that have come out of this.

I actually only have really bothered so much about this salvation thing because some of my new Christian friends are very obsessed about it and they very badly wanted me to be saved so I am trying to understand properly what they even mean by it.

>You do it because you love God and Jesus.

ProTip for you anon: I don't even understand salvation or the necessity of it. As far as I'm concerned I don't need to be saved. However, this is a very important concept in Christianity, and something the Christians I speak with care very much about it and strongly emphasize the importance of to me, and so I want to clear up what this whole salvation thing is about and proceed in the proper manner about it.

>>754241

>If you don't have that, your faith is like a currency you're trying to throw into a vending machine and expecting salvation to pop out of it.

I told one Christian that god is perfectly just and that if he throws me in the lake of fire I am completely fine with that because by the very definition of God he knows best and is perfectly just. He said I should be scared. I don't feel any fear at all about it though for I know god and trust and love god.

I'm not trying to be saved. I am trying to understand salvation. From what I've heard so far it appears that salvation comes about from faith not by works. Various details of this faith however are severely confusing to me.

>Not how it works.

>Also, if you love God, if you reaaallly love Him, you don't expect anything from Him. You accept whatever he has in store for you.

I know of God's justice even before reading the KJV and accept it. Not sure that love has to come into play. God's love seems to me like another matter.

I would say concerning the love of God that it is not based on my accepting him so much as it is by my knowing him. It is an inevitable consequence of my knowing him that I love and accept him. Maybe, theoretically, someone else could know him (e.g. Satan the Angel surely did) and then he of some choice of his own rebelled. However for me knowing and understanding what God is (as by definition) is all it takes. You see the problem with so many people is this: ignorance of God. In the Bible there is a part that something like "I never knew you". In The Corpus Hermeticum there is this: http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/herm/hermes7.htm (it is very short you can read it in less than a minute).

>Becoming a christian in order to be saved is completely egocentric. Cutting off your friends because they might "look bad" at the final judgement is incredibly selfish and loveless.

Listen anon. I am not "becoming a Christian" at all. I am studying what is purported to be the word of God and recognizing for myself its beauty, its glory, and its wisdom. I have not sought to be a Christian. It is simply a process that appears to be happening quite naturally by being confronted with the truth or as Jesus puts it: "I Am the Way, the Truth, and the Life"

>Get some inner character development going, you are not being a good person right now, and yes, it matters.

I am not so concerned with being a "good person". I am sin. What is sin? Falling short of the mark. God is perfect. I am so far from God and always will be as a man. No matter what I do I am "condemned by the law". It is only through god's grace that salvation can come.

Most people who have known me in person hold me in high regards. It means nothing to me. I might reveal something of my past or of my thoughts and person here and now and be instantly condemned by them. It doesn't matter.

In the light of god I am completely unworthy of him… and he knows me completely.

There are two ways my sin will be paid for. Either by my being thrown into the lake of fire or by my savior the Christ. Either way is perfectly fine. While I yet remain in the world however, no matter that my nature is to do good in the eyes of men, and to be rather pleasant and such, it does not matter.

Anyways the whole point of this inquiry is what is saving faith and do I have it or not. It's a big topic and I want to have an absolutely, crystal clear view of it.

>>754241

One more thing. I went and read the Quran after the KJV. At no point was I intending to become a Muslim. Had the Quran just so happened to leave a bigger impression on me, it might have led me to becoming such.

Also, when I became a pagan, I never intended to do so. I never got the idea to "go join or form a pagan community" or anything like that. All that happened is I read the works of various pagans and accepted them as truth. I only started to identify myself as a pagan because at some point I realized that was exactly what I was. Now, I might start calling myself a Christian, but for now I do not because there are certain doctrines like salvation, that I don't feel I understand well enough yet, to say that I accept the teachings of Christ and am a Christian as such.

The way I work I never make up my mind to believe or become or identify as a thing. I just go through life, have experiences, study things, etc. and end up with an identity and a set of beliefs and being the person I am; and all of this subject to change. I never rest in myself thinking I have it all figured out, I have this idea of God that is very clearly defined in my mind, and which I further seek to know by discovering more of his attributes, and in this quest I examine and question everything. The Bible is a great book that has helped. I don't know if it's "infallible" as some Christians assert it is but it might be. God will have to work to convict my heart and to reveal himself to me.

>>754700

Please read the excerpts of catechisms I posted above, I would like to know if it helps you or if you have questions specifically in response.

>>754702

You said you read the Bible. Out of curiosity, did you also read the books that aren't very interesting from a storytelling/poetic perspective? (Leviticus, 1 Chronicles…)

>>754274

>nestorianism, the notion that Christ was two distinct persons, God and man, and not one,

This heresy sounds plausible to me. How did they rebuke it?

>the heresy that Jesus was merely a divine messenger that nearly dominated the true faith in the 4th century and has seen resurgence in modern times in parts of the pentecostal movement.

Also sounds plausible.

As for pelegianism seems like bullshit to me.

>Therefore, I recommend that you begin with the Didache, a 1st century guide to the christian faith, and then move on to the epistles of Irenaeous, Justin Martyr, and Polycarp, all of whom lived in the second century and the last of whom is traditionally believed to have been a direct disciple of John. These episles should give you a clear idea of what the earliest christians believed in regards to topics that are not universally agreed upon in modern christendom, such as the necessity of charity and the strict avoidance/repentance of sin and the authority of the church.

Do you have links? I want to add this Didache and the others you mention to my reading pile.

>I pray you discern well friend!

Discernment and critical thinking was literally where I started my whole journey into spirituality and away from agnosticism. I'm all about that discernment and epistemology and such. I hate deception and yearn for the fullness of truth.

>>754703

>Please read the excerpts of catechisms I posted above, I would like to know if it helps you or if you have questions specifically in response.

Am working my way top-to-bottom of thread also am dead tired so might just lay down and resume reading and responding to this thread tomorrow.

>You said you read the Bible. Out of curiosity, did you also read the books that aren't very interesting from a storytelling/poetic perspective? (Leviticus, 1 Chronicles…)

I read the entire thing start to finish including those awful boring endless geneologies where they just go on and on. However my retention in memory of it all is not 100% perfect as I got through it all in 3 weeks so some details are fuzzy for me when compared to someone that goes through it all over like a year, carefully and passionately studying and discussing each chapter.

>>754703

Btw, is the Corpus Hermeticum 100% Christ-approved in your view? I can't even get the Christians I've been talking to IRL to read any bit of it as they are fearful to read anything other than the Bible so I've been wanting to get a self-professed Christian's view on whether the Corpus Hermeticum is in line with Christ's teachings or not.

>>754710

It is not. Hermeticism has the ideas of Gnosticism and Hidden knowledge imbeded deep into it's roots.

>However my retention in memory of it all is not 100% perfect as I got through it all in 3 weeks so some details are fuzzy for me when compared to someone that goes through it all over like a year, carefully and passionately studying and discussing each chapter.

… For what reason did you read *the entire Bible* in three weeks? That is reading too much too fast to even understand what you are reading, unless you are a genius or something. This is like eating a luxury meal so fast that you cannot even take the time to savour it, and you end up feeling full and uncomfortable afterward.

>Corpus Hermeticum

I have not read it. It wasn't written by a Christian so I genuinely don't know. It's not like it's a sin to read works from pagans and such, but please focus on Christian doctrine first and foremost so that you don't end up making up some syncretic weird thing.

>>754706

>This heresy sounds plausible to me. How did they rebuke it?

You may want to learn about the Ecumenical Councils. They were councils that were held to define matters of faith and normalize practices in the Church, when faced with heresies and disputes.

They are named after the location where they were held. I am not Catholic but I will list them from a Catholic perspective because they have the most councils:

- Nicea I (325)

- Constantinople I (381) <- the latest council according to the Assyrian Church of the East

- Ephesus (431) <- the latest council according to the Oriental Orthodox Church

- Chalcedon (451)

- Constatinople II (553)

- Constantinople III (680-681)

- Nicea II (787) <- the latest council according to the Eastern Orthodox Church

- Constantinople IV (869-870)

- Lateran I (1123)

- Lateran II (1139)

- Lateran III (1179)

- Lateran IV (1215)

- Lyon I (1245)

- Lyon II (1274)

- Vienne (1311-1312)

- Constance (1414-1418)

- Florence (1431-1445)

- Lateran V (1512-1517)

- Trent (1545-1563)

- Vatican I (1869-1870)

- Vatican II (1962-1965) <- the latest council according to the Catholic Church

Nestorianism was addressed at the Council of Ephesus. Arianism was addressed at the First Council of Nicea and the First Council of Constantinople. Pelagianism was addressed at the Council of Ephesus. But overall I at least recommend you read up on the first 7 councils - not because I am Eastern Orthodox (I am) but because Nicea I and Constantinople I are generally understood to be the standard of orthodox doctrine for the Trinity, and Ephesus, Chalcedon, Constantinople II, Constantinople III, and Nicea II are understood to be the standard of orthodox doctrine for the Incarnation.

…

Since you have already swallowed the Bible whole, you may want to check out the books called deuterocanonical by the Catholics and apocryphal by the Protestants. Catholics and Orthodox believe them to be inspired scripture, Protestants disagree, but either way they might be interesting to read at least.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biblical_canon#Canons_of_various_Christian_traditions

This has a good table of which books are canonical in which traditions.

>>754715

So why is hidden knowledge (think pearl of great price?) and Gnosticism (which was what Christianity was originally) not Christ approved?

>>754975

Oh boy, you're still far gone. I was in your footsteps. You're probably a person with an innate sense of spirituality as I, I compel you to search for the divinity of Christ as Lord and God.

Stop searching ((((ocultic))) texts, the hold no truth, they are there to misguide and delude the entirety of your purpose. If you are innate as I presume, you will know you are called to something. This thing I do not know, it is for your discernment.

>So why is hidden knowledge (think pearl of great price?)

Because esoteric knowledge is not for everyone, it exists but Christianty is for all kinds of people.

Gentiles (the lay) and Jews (the old hidden path)

>Gnosticism (which was what Christianity was originally)not Christ approved?

Because it's not originaly Gnostic. Christ lived a real human life and was truly the Son in Flesh. He experienced human temptation yet remained perfect and sinless.

>>754982

I literally have no occult texts left to read as I achieved 100% redundancy after studying a couple hundred of them.

I do not agree with your assessment at all.

>Because esoteric knowledge is not for everyone, it exists but Christianty is for all kinds of people.

Well I am not the common man.

>Because it's not originaly Gnostic. Christ lived a real human life and was truly the Son in Flesh. He experienced human temptation yet remained perfect and sinless.

How does any of that make it not gnostic?

>>754979

Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. I know where I stand. Right now I don't really see anything in the Bible itself that I completely reject but there are various interpretations of Christians that I don't believe at all. I can't reject the Bible but I do reject what a lot of Christians are trying to make out to be the truth to me.

Also 7a4fc3 seems to be implying that only jews are allowed to study the occult and all goyim have to have a watered down and less full understanding of reality.

>>754279

>Have you ever felt blissfulness and love? That is a very small foretaste of the Kingdom of God, given to us to motivate us to move toward it. Have you ever felt despair and sorrow? That is a very small foretaste of the Gehenna, given to us to motivate us to avoid it. I am not talking about these passionate, pleasurable feelings such as being "happy" to gorge yourself on fast food, or wallowing in self-pity. I am talking about these innocent and genuine feelings that one feels sometimes in their life, such as when one gets married or when one's friend passes away.

I've had life long "Persistent Depressive Disorder" and Anhedonia. So my life is filled with an abundance of despair and sorrow and a total lack of pleasure even in eating food. This may or may not give me a skewed perspective of things and is also probably what has driven to me Christianity because I really don't even fathom what love is as I've never had it in my life.

>>754281

Nope. Something about God being like some kind of infinite pool or ocean or whatever of vitality to be drawn from without him diminishing.

>>755020

Gnostics propose God could not of been in the flesh because the material world is what is the sin.

>Well I am not the common man.

You are the common man until you fully come to Christ. You're living a dead life currently.

If you think you're too good for the Word made flesh, than I can't help you. You pride shines to bright.

>>755023

>Also 7a4fc3 seems to be implying that only jews are allowed to study the occult and all goyim have to have a watered down and less full understanding of reality.

No, you're miss understanding me. Ancient Judiasm was a religion literally revealed to only a select people. The revelations they recieved where hidden to the gentiles.

The propagation of occultic thinking into todays society is of a Jewish agenda to flood mankind into a luke passive relation to the spiritual realm. Ie make truth a subjective source by virtue of a vast diversity of ((((options)))).

God is objective. Truth is objective. The pathway to both is objective.

>>755027

>Gnostics propose God could not of been in the flesh because the material world is what is the sin.

Uhhh what makes you think that gnostics think this? Also what do you even mean by "in the flesh" and "the material world"?

What I think myself is that the All is All in All. Like a hologram, the whole contained in every part.

>You are the common man until you fully come to Christ. You're living a dead life currently.

I don't want to explain to you what a special snowflake I am but "occult realities" are very much a daily concern of my life and not something that can just be ignored. I am not able to live a life where I can just ignore it.

>If you think you're too good for the Word made flesh, than I can't help you. You pride shines to bright.

I don't even understand what you mean by this sentence. What is pride and what is "the word made flesh"?

>>755029

>No, you're miss understanding me. Ancient Judiasm was a religion literally revealed to only a select people. The revelations they recieved where hidden to the gentiles.

Okay. So what? What is the relevance?

>The propagation of occultic thinking into todays society is of a Jewish agenda to flood mankind into a luke passive relation to the spiritual realm. Ie make truth a subjective source by virtue of a vast diversity of ((((options)))).

What does "occultic thinking" mean to you? Why would it lead to a lukewarm passive relation to the spiritual realm? How does various sources of information of varied quality in any way make truth subjective?

>God is objective. Truth is objective.

Yes.

>The pathway to both is objective.

Not sure what you mean by this. Even if you said "The pathway to both is subjective." I still wouldn't know what you mean.

The pathway to truth to me is through gnosis, critical thinking, and purity.

>>755030

>Uhhh what makes you think that gnostics think this? Also what do you even mean by "in the flesh" and "the material world"?

This is literally the docterine of Gnosticism, are you not familiar with Gnosticism? They claim the Physical world is evil and all things spiritual are Good. This is wrong. Creation is beautiful as it was made by God, and God radiates beauty through everything he creates.

>What I think myself is that the All is All in All. Like a hologram, the whole contained in every part.

You are clinging to this because you are afraid of what it could be if you where wrong. This is a hindu philosophical idea that has a lot to do with the brahman. Get out of it. It's a circular cycle, a trap, a black hole of spirituality.

>I don't want to explain to you what a special snowflake I am but "occult realities" are very much a daily concern of my life and not something that can just be ignored. I am not able to live a life where I can just ignore.

I know. I have been there. I recommened praying to God. Keep talking to him, he listens. You are in a cloud of darkness, you are in an area where one is in the process of becoming, you are preparing your self to "make a leap of faith", jumping the void as it were.

>I don't even understand what you mean by this sentence. What is pride and what is "the word made flesh"?

Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. He was the promised messiah. Pride is a sin that bloats the ego into a sense of self idolatry. Which has been inflected upon you.

>>755031

>All occult traditions come from Babylon and the (((Kabbalah))).

No they don't.

>Because they literally made it up. If the (((FakeJews))) want to disobey the laws of Moses that's their damnnation, not yours.

Uhhh what.

>Leviticus 19:31 - Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I [am] the LORD your God.

What's wrong with having a familiar spirit? They are just as fallible as humans mind you and just because someone has one doesn't mean you should automatically believe everything or their familiar says.

Also what do they mean by "wizards"?

>Leviticus 20:6 - And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people

I remember reading that and pausing at it. My interpretation is basically this; many people are deceived by their familiars and many also are deceived by those deceived by their familiars. I still don't see what is fundamentally wrong with having a familiar spirit.

>Please, friend, don't go down this path I and others have gone down already. You will find only suffering and not God's love.

I've seen it happen a lot but I've seen the opposite happen too. You know Socrates had a familiar named Daimon? Later on this mutated into the word Daemon and eventually to Demon. Over the years the concept as well changed, it originally meaning the familiar of Socrates, then meaning spirits in general, and at last meaning very negative and troublesome types of spirits.

>>755033

>This is literally the docterine of Gnosticism, are you not familiar with Gnosticism? They claim the Physical world is evil and all things spiritual are Good. This is wrong. Creation is beautiful as it was made by God, and God radiates beauty through everything he creates.

What you're describing is dark gnosticism and its offshoots. I've studied many forms of gnosticism and various gnostics believed different things. There are quite a few gnostics that see the world as a prison. I hear many Christians say the world is Satan's domain and things like that btw.

>Creation is beautiful as it was made by God, and God radiates beauty through everything he creates.

Hmmmm. I sort of agree but yet not everything is beautiful and good and just. My view of the world is that it's a mix of good and evil and my view of the afterlife is that it's much the same.

>You are clinging to this because you are afraid of what it could be if you where wrong. This is a hindu philosophical idea that has a lot to do with the brahman. Get out of it. It's a circular cycle, a trap, a black hole of spirituality.

I don't cling to anything. I don't hold beliefs merely because of fear. It is simply what I believe and which explains all that I know about reality. It is not a strictly hindu idea but I am familiar with Swami Vivekananda and other hindus and it's certainly featured in some of the bigger schools of hinduism. Mind you holographic universe theory was invented by a jew (David Bohm)…

>I know. I have been there. I recommend praying to God. Keep talking to him, he listens. You are in a cloud of darkness, you are in an area where one is in the process of becoming, you are preparing your self to "make a leap of faith", jumping the void as it were.

I am most particularly afraid of being deceived though and this suspicion extends to the Bible, and to the spirits, and to man, and to pretty well every source through which information comes. God just helps me by revealing things to me directly but even these things I then test, knowing them in my heart to be true, but wanting to verify them anyways.

>Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. He was the promised messiah.

…I don't understand.

>Pride is a sin that bloats the ego into a sense of self idolatry. Which has been inflected upon you.

Technically, I have far lower self-worth than pretty well every Christian I've ever met, as people who have an ego or sense of grandiosity or self-worth or whatever, don't try to commit suicide. I also don't make an idol of myself. I also don't see pride as a bad thing and wish I had pride.

>>755032

>Okay. So what? What is the relevance?

Christianity is made for both, those with with a mystical prowess - you, I, the Saints and many more wise figures of history. Christianity was the bridge of the hidden into the seen, this is part of reason God became man. So all could see and hear his teachings.

>What does "occultic thinking" mean to you? Why would it lead to a lukewarm passive relation to the spiritual realm? How does various sources of information of varied quality in any way make truth subjective?

Occultic thinking to me is when a individual seeks internal treasure through divination of our senses. Trying to manipulate forces that our beyond our full comprehension. Occultic thinking leads to a lukewarm spiritual life because it leads to deification of the self through knowledge. Being overloaded with this ((((knowledge)))) makes us unsure of what real truth is, and the lines of subjectively and objectivity become blurred into a non-dualistic belief where nothing and everything is.

>The pathway to truth to me is through gnosis, critical thinking, and purity

The pathway to Truth is through the way of Christ, he is the only way to the Father.

Theosis.

>>755036

I've been told by a pastor that Christianity is both a mystery school and not at the same time.

Also would you not agree that Christianity has both an occult side and a not occult side?

>Occultic thinking to me is when a individual seeks internal treasure through divination of our senses. Trying to manipulate forces that our beyond our full comprehension. Occultic thinking leads to a lukewarm spiritual life because it leads to deification of the self through knowledge. Being overloaded with this ((((knowledge)))) makes us unsure of what real truth is, and the lines of subjectively and objectivity become blurred into a non-dualistic belief where nothing and everything is.

I can obtain accurate and verifiable information through extrasensory perception. As for the forces supposedly beyond our comprehension, the world seems to me to be made up of the interplay of will and desire, and all that is being manipulated in creating changes in the world is concentrated desire. Is that hard to comprehend?

I could show you an occult book that specifically counsels people to not deify themselves.

How do you have any certainty in your life? Also I think everything is a polarity but unified in a, I guess you could say, non-dual principle; the three parts forming a trinity. So hot and cold; temperature. Body and soul; spirit. Matter and energy; mind. The third part having the ultimate reality.

>>755035

>I hear many Christians say the world is Satan's domain and things like that btw.

These people are not well read in mysticism or deep philosophy. Please don't create opinions by the words of the lay.

Satans real domain is the Human Mind of the unregenetive soul. Those who have the Holy Spirit leave this fallen place and become a regenative being, a being of life. This is Christianity, without it you will stay dead.

>Hmmmm. I sort of agree but yet not everything is beautiful and good and just. My view of the world is that it's a mix of good and evil and my view of the afterlife is that it's much the same

Of course, most of Humanity is in a sinful state of being. It's quite sad.

>I am most particularly afraid of being deceived though and this suspicion extends to the Bible, and to the spirits, and to man, and to pretty well every source through which information comes. God just helps me by revealing things to me directly but even these things I then test, knowing them in my heart to be true, but wanting to verify them anyways.

This is what I'm talking about when Spirituality becomes likewarm. By having so much occultic knowledge you have are in a spell of disillusion, you have no Faith in Truth, you have no Faith even in your self to discern truth. I'll pray for you.

>…I don't understand

I thought you would be more familiar with Christianity and the bible. Jesus Christ is the promised redeemer of Mankind in the Old Testament. In the old testament people have him by God's Word alone.

> I also don't see pride as a bad thing and wish I had pride

You should read about the 7 deadly sins, your eyes might become open to your habits.

Isn't theosis just a more broad concept that includes gnosis in it?

>>755038

>Christianity has both an occult side and a not occult side?

Not really occult as everything is pretty openly stated. But, the spiritual knowledge is infinitely deep, There is never an end to the progress you make with Christ.

>I can obtain accurate and verifiable information through extrasensory perception. As for the forces supposedly beyond our comprehension, the world seems to me to be made up of the interplay of will and desire, and all that is being manipulated in creating changes in the world is concentrated desire. Is that hard to comprehend?

No, that's not hard to comprehend at all. But you're deluded to think this is the fullness of the reality that you live in. There is much much more going on.

>I could show you an occult book that specifically counsels people to not deify themselves.

No thank you. Christianity is a full life view in it self. It has everything you could ever want, as it is living theology it self. As a Christian you are a being of theology.

>How do you have any certainty in your life?

Because I have absolute Faith, God is an objective being that I have a personal relationship with.

>>755045

>But you're deluded to think this is the fullness of the reality that you live in. There is much much more going on.

…but I don't think I have at all glimpsed the fullness of reality or I wouldn't be seeking to know more.

>>755045

>Because I have absolute Faith, God is an objective being that I have a personal relationship with.

Well I pray all the time and get answers all the time but I'm not sure that counts as a "personal" relationship. Should I be able to hear the very voice of god speak to me? Should he be able to appear to me in the form of a man? Could it be that I could behold him, in a vision, and speak with as one human to another human?

If so… should I dare to try this? As I have been thinking of attempting this now for years but too hesitant to actually do it, always feeling I need to be more prepared, always thinking I might winnie the pooh up and somehow be destroyed by the encounter.

>>755040

Theosis is a bit more naunced than that.

>Yeah I know that but "the word made flesh" what does that mean? Is that just an odd way of saying "the promised savior made incarnate"?

It's a way of saying it yes, but it's a much deeper translation of the idea.

>I've read about it but I think that pride is a virtue and that a lack of pride is the big problem in this world. I have no pride and I would surely be better if I did.

You are wrong. Please read some Christian sources of what pride is, and why it is sinful.

>…but what does pride mean to you?

Deification of self. I have nothing to be proud about, as everything that I have gained is given to me by God.

>Also what is its opposite?

Humility.

>>755051

I have tons of humility and I admire the people who are able to have some sense of pride even if they are delusional. It seems to make them better able to hold their ground in the world.

If there anything at all we have btw not given to us by God? Anything that we never gained but always have? It seems to me the answer is the self. However we don't "have" the self we are the self. As for everything else tacked onto this self, that is all given us by god.

>>755048

>…but I don't think I have at all glimpsed the fullness of reality or I wouldn't be seeking to know more.

Then you wouldn't be trying to contain it in a limitied world view.

>If so… should I dare to try this? As I have been thinking of attempting this now for years but too hesitant to actually do it, always feeling I need to be more prepared, always thinking I might winnie the pooh up and somehow be destroyed by the encounter

You will be obliterated not by pain, but Love. You will realize how much Love you have missed in your life.

I believe in you

>>755053

The self is the epicentre of your totallity.

>>755054

>Then you wouldn't be trying to contain it in a limitied world view.

Uhhh are you mistakenly thinking I said "I know the fullness of reality"? As I did not say that. I said the very opposite. I only have a glimpse of it. Also, as for a worldview, I have one and I am continually trying to refine that worldview, so I have some way to orient myself to reality better.

>You will be obliterated not by pain, but Love. You will realize how much Love you have missed in your life.

My life and circumstances have been extremely cold, extremely loveless, even by human standards. Considering the tears of joy I've seen in Christians who had, at least by human standards, an abundance of love… I am not sure that this love would not break me. I am not sure I could bare to stand to live in this world any longer if I knew even a fraction of what god's love might be.

>>755055

Would your sentence lose any meaning if you said "the self is the center of your totality"? Why the "epi"?

Btw just to be very clear you are giving the approval for the following plan, namely meeting god in the form of a man?

If so, I guess I better just man up, and prepare to face my god. It seems to me like a matter as terrifying as facing death itself. I will however wait until later this month probably to do this.

>>755057

>Also I think everything is a polarity but unified in a, I guess you could say, non-dual principle; the three parts forming a trinity. So hot and cold; temperature. Body and soul; spirit. Matter and energy; mind. The third part having the ultimate reality.

The language you use here depicts containment of reality. Either or; by giving parameters such as, directional, mathmatical, observable, opposites. These words try to contain reality by giving a way of perspective. You've become reliant on language to understand Truth. Truth cannot be contained like this.

>

My life and circumstances have been extremely cold, extremely loveless, even by human standards. Considering the tears of joy I've seen in Christians who had, at least by human standards, an abundance of love… I am not sure that this love would not break me. I am not sure I could bare to stand to live in this world any longer if I knew even a fraction of what god's love might be.

You should read about the Saints, they didn't have very cheerful lives.

>

Would your sentence lose any meaning if you said "the self is the center of your totality"? Why the "epi"?

Because it creates a more vivid imagination of what I'm trying to convey, like an earthquake are actions of the self ripple out from us.

>>755059

I'd love to meet God in the flesh, but do not expect something so miraculous

>>755060

It is terrifying, at least it was for me. I had to face my self in the light of God.

>>755063

>The language you use here depicts containment of reality. Either or; by giving parameters such as, directional, mathmatical, observable, opposites. These words try to contain reality by giving a way of perspective. You've become reliant on language to understand Truth. Truth cannot be contained like this.

Break out your own epistemology for me to review then because I don't see how truth can transcend perspective.

>>755331

Truth is abstract from rhetoric and/or logic. It is the reason of both.

Truth is not rhetoric and/or logic but is transcendent of both.

>>755376

Hmmm.

>>756144

Also, Truth is objective, but personal to the degree of how one holds it.

>>756156

Okay so concerning the original criticism of the language I use to describe the reality of god what would you prefer to see instead? How am I to speak intelligibly about God?

>>756336

You don't God is a being, he is not an object. He has a will, he thoughts as you or I. He is ever loving, and he his fully just.

>>756351

Okay so you are talking about him right now but saying "you don't" to me. How come you can talk about him but I am not allowed to?

>>756641

I didn't say that. I was trying to get across to you, that the way you where looking at reality was boxing you into a dichotomy that'll eventually box in your view of God.

You may talk to God how ever you see fit.

>>756649

Talking about god not talking to god.