/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

I don't watch anime.

But yes, piracy is a sin. Although not a major one according to my priest, since, while copyright laws are not injust in themselves, they're not exactly a paradigm of justice either, especially when one considers the real human need for the consumption and creation of art and entertainment, as well as the questionable practice of making people pay to access religious/theological texts.

Piracy won't kill your soul (depending on what you pirate, of course) but you should stop doing it, and you really have to confess it along with your other sins if you end up committing a grave sin that needs to be confessed (God forbid).

Piracy is not a sin. Watching anime, however, is.

>>750862

Nope, I don't.

If an anime is good I try to support the makers in different ways, like buying fan merch.

Then again lots of anime can't be watched in the West through legal means, and even if it's possible it's mostly dubbed.

>>750868

This.

>intellectual property

>exists

Pick one.

Piracy is not a sin and I can share as I see fit.

:)

Lol no it's not. Nothing is stolen.

>>750885

>>750886

>>750868

“Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves”

>Piracy is illegal

>he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted

>>750887

>>750887

>Piracy is illegal

Only if you accept democratic regimes as legitimate. They are not because they are literally established by the people for the people and not by God.

>there is no authority except that which God has established

This means that democracies are not legitimate authorities.

That and authorities only apply in territories held by them, meaning that if you are not living under an authority, you are not bound by their laws…

… and the internet being an ideaspace and not a physical realm that can be occupied physically, anything goes.

That plus my country is ok with piracy :)

At best this is a legal dispute that you lose because you are wrong in your assumptions.

At worst you are trying (and failing) to put words in God's mouth to legitimize your claim.

Pick one.

>>750893

Oh and also I forgot to add that anime for the most part is sadly cancer.

There are some gems though.

>>750893

We Americans don't live in a democracy, we live in a republic. Still, any form of state government could make arbitrary laws that shouldn't be followed

Your conclusion that piracy is not theft is still valid though.

>>750862

Piracy is a tool to spit in the face of usury, capitalism destroyed our mental and physical infrastructures, copyright imprisoned our ability to create on the achievements of our forefathers, and greed killed more living organisms then anything else. It's a sin to not pirate…f-u-c-k the leechers, tho.

>>750900

Do you have an objection that you'd like to make in the form of an argument?

>>750910

Yes, that's exactly what is happening. And?

There are some people for example, on /v/ with legitimate arguments, but they might preface their posts with ":) :3~" and other stuff(as a example).

The default take is to tell them to leave and don't touch their argument.

>>750862

Something something loaves of bread and fish to feed thousands of people something something. Copying is different from stealing.

>>750914

>Don't argue with someone

>They still argue with me

Despite everything, I feel like this is a sign I am winning. After all, why argue over someone you already already have "won" over?

>>750921

you're a fag

>>750921

Why are you here if not to debate

You're the one who should leave

>>750925

>>750921

>>750911

9/10 bait I fell for it hard

Take my (you)s

>>750896

>We Americans don't live in a democracy, we live in a republic.

The point was not that democracy is bad or that america is a democracy. the point was that all democratic regimes (and yes, the republic is also democratic) derive their authority from the people and not from God, and thus they are not legitimate forms of government.

>>750887

Lol u got rekt so hard by >>750893

that I have nothinf to do but point and laugh.

>>750902

You go and vote for representatives in a legislature, and for a president.

Therefore, you're participating in a democracy.

You cannot have a republic in which all people vote for the president without it being a democracy.

>>750942

That's not how it works.

I am OP. I have only posted >>750887 in this thread. I made this thread because I am a Christian who likes to watch some anime, but I've always seen other Christians pirate it instead of buying it. Which is concerning to me since I'm pretty confident that piracy is a sin. I understand that this thread comes off as judging and makes me sound self-righteous, but that was not my intent.

From what I understand, Romans 13:1-2 Says we should submit ourselves to the governing authorities. From what I know downloading copyrighted material that you have no right to download is illegal. (In my country at least.) Therefore it is a sin as you would be rebelling against the governing authority. Please understand that I never said that piracy was theft.

Also, you guys shouldn't be so rude to each other. A Christian shouldn't say or write any unwholesome or crude words. some of you name call and try to shame one another which isn't right.

"A soft answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger. The tongue of the wise uses knowledge rightly, But the mouth of fools pours forth foolishness." -Proverbs 15:1-2

I recommend watching this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ptx331uLZ7Y

>>750955

It literally is. To see anything on the internet you have to download it into your computer. This includes everything you see on your web browser.

anime is a sin as well

repent and stop watching cuckime and go serve your fellow men

Why isn't anime banned, again? It's just an excuse for shitposting.

>>750862

BEGOME ORTHODOX :DDD

>“When someone steals another's clothes, we call them a thief. Should we not give the same name to one who could clothe the naked and does not? The bread in your cupboard belongs to the hungry; the coat unused in your closet belongs to the one who needs it; the shoes rotting in your closet belong to the one who has no shoes; the money which you hoard up belongs to the poor.”

>― Basil the Great

More redpills

>They say: whom do I wrong by keeping my property? What, tell me, is your property? Where did you find it and brought it to your life? Just like someone in the theatre, who had a seat and then stopped those who entered, judging that what lies common in front of everyone to use, was his own: rich men are of the same kind. They first took possession of the common property, and then they keep it as their own because they were the first to take it. If one had taken what is necessary to cover one's needs and had left the rest to those who are in need, no one would be rich, no one would be poor, no one would be in need.

I rest my case. Anime should be communal.

>>750955

Technically, you're possessing copyrighted material that you normally have to pay for.

This is how they catch pedos too I heard, by watching cheese pizza it gets into your cache and whatnot so you're technically possessing the pizza.

>>750960

No, that's not how the law works. You're not "pirating" simply for seeing something on the internet.

>>750975

There's a huge difference between seeing a thumbnail and clicking on it to watch the video. This >>750942 is nowhere to be found on my drive except as the thumbnail image. No, I have not cleared anything or closed my browser. That mp4 is not in my possession.

When you view a thread on an imageboard, you are not downloading the entirety of images or videos. That's not how websites work.

>This thread again

No, I do not pirate. I either watch anime via legal streams, or buy it on DVD/BluRay.

I'll just sum up what this thread has been time and time again:

Anti-pirates - "Piracy is a sin because it is theft/breaking civil law."

Pro-pirates - The usual mental gymnastic tropes like "copying is not theft"; "once something becomes digital, it becomes something totally different, and therefore is fair game"; "people who make a living by cutting out the middle man via the digital marketplace should be punished by piracy into making physical objects instead"; "one should pirate degenerate material instead of paying for it (even though one should not be consuming degenerate material in the first place) or some variation of "the corporations are corporationy, so it's okay to stick it to them!" or the ever classic "monks copied books!"

This one is new however:

>>750893

>Only if you accept democratic regimes as legitimate. They are not because they are literally established by the people for the people and not by God.

>This means that democracies are not legitimate authorities.

>That and authorities only apply in territories held by them, meaning that if you are not living under an authority, you are not bound by their laws…

>… and the internet being an ideaspace and not a physical realm that can be occupied physically, anything goes.

First off, your argument falls apart because the verses you are responding to (Romans 13: 1-5) literally state that even civil authorities (i.e. authorities supposedly established by men) are ultimately established by God. Jesus himself said "Render unto Ceasar, what is Ceasar's" (Mark 12: 16-17) Even, Pontius Pilate, a questionable authority about to be at least partly responsible for deicide, was addressed by Jesus as having no authority or power except that which he gave him. (John 19: 10-11) Jesus even said of the hypocritical and corrupt Pharisees to respect their position and obey what they say that is good, and not to emulate their actions. (Matthew 23:2-3). In fact, the only time you can actual disobey civil authorities is when their laws go directly against the law of God. (Acts 5: 28-29) As long as anti-piracy laws are not compelling you to blasphemy God or not go to church, you must submit to them. Also, yes, even the so-called "free ideaspace of the internet is subject to law according to territory as you yourself point out:

>plus my country is ok with piracy :)

And just because your particular country is okay with piracy does not mean others in territories where it is illegal according to civil law should disobey their authorities. Plus, since piracy legality encourages theft (i.el. breaking a commandment), this is a particular case where God should be obeyed instead of man.

>>750938

No. Read the above.

<"But they (anti-piracy laws) keep me from preaching the gospel by preventing me from pirating and sharing theological works!"

Modern theological works that have to be payed for are thusly so due to having to pay translators, publishers, distributors, paper suppliers, printing presses, licensing deals with digital distributors, etc. They have to make a living in order to keep the individuals, and the physical and intellectual institutions running that make these works available in the first place. Ultimately, in terms of resources to and opportunities for witnessing, you must trust God to provide legal access and said opportunities, as well as what to say during those opportunities. (Matthew 10: 18-20) When I had money and access issues, my own priest provided me with theological books for free that he happened to have extra copies of, as well as lend me books to read and return. If all else fails, utilize theological works in the public domain.

I will end on this final note: when I asked questions trying to rationalize so-called "grey areas" of piracy to my priest, his response was to gently but swiftly cut through all of that malarkey and call it out for what it is: stealing.

>>750990

I don't think you can call it stealing since no one is being dispossessed. If you reduce things to simple terms, you lose the complexity of the issue. It is, however, against the law and thus we should abstain from it. Having said that, most "pirated" anime is distributed for free anyway and I don't think it really matters where you download that information; it also has the advantage of preventing the wrong people of making money through ads and other such stuff. Anime in itself, however, isn't particularly edifying as much as I personally enjoy it, so you need to feed your brain better stuff so that you can grow spiritually and cognitively.

While I appreciate and am grateful for your thoughts on the matter, it does raise one important question: is ad blocking sinful? To the point, you need to consider that ads are one of the most prominent distributors of malware and other nasties that compromise your systems. So is one that protects one's property while damaging the profits of others in a state of sin? I genuinely don't have an answer for this but I wouldn't boil it down to theft.

>>751005

One thing to consider is that adblock block software actually exists. It'll block you form viewing the page if ads don't load.

That being said I'm not sure how popular that thing is so I'm only around 50% sure they're not voluntarily putting it up.

>>750990

>The usual mental gymnastic tropes like "copying is not theft";

It literally isn't. This isn't "mental gymnastics", it's settled case law. See Dowling vs United States.

>>751012

The issue here is that the money does not go to the people who make these works.

It goes to the people who paid other people to make them - that is, already rather wealthy people. The people actually making anime don't get a cut when you buy a show, they get their salary regardless.

It is obviously very different in other contexts, such as music, especially music that isn't the biggest produced pop.

>>751005

>I don't think you can call it stealing since no one is being dispossessed.

Person A figures out a method for making a cost effective and beautiful blue dye.

Person B copies Person A's notes and makes the same dye, but sells it cheaper.

Person B, while not preventing Person A from continuing the make the dye, has stolen Person A's livelihood. Downloading movies/tv shows/software doesn't take a physical copy, but it is still theft.

>>751020

I say this with kindness, but your analogy is a flawed one. It presumes that competition in the market place is wrong and that intellectual property is absolute or at the very least in effect. To produce a counterfeit product is not wrong or even necessarily unlawful but to sell or profit out of stolen property is both sinful and unlawful. The legality of a counterfeit depends on a legal system that either permits or prohibits such practices; as competing products however, they lawfully acquire the necessary materials to produce the final product.

So your arguments is necessarily premised in the existence and the observance of an intellectual property law, circumstances which I remind you are not equal to all of us. Finally, I do understand that consuming intellectual property (and presumably enjoying it) while denying the sustenance to whom has produced it is intrinsically wrong and this understanding must move us to contribute to the author, but as someone has already pointed out most of the time the money is distributed by the wrong people and ends up in the wrong hands or even further finances the wrong works. So plainly put this is not a black or white matter, it is an immensely grey issue that has no easy answer.

>>751025

>I don't like where the money goes, so it's ok to steal it

Sounds like a cop-out. We shouldn't try to justify sin by finding loopholes in the system. Don't be a lawyer, just obey God.

Democratic administrations are inherently satanic institutions that do not derive their authority from God but from man and therefore do not possess any legitimate authority at all.

No, Bible verses talking about appointed positions in monarchical governments do not disprove this statement, as the appointed personnel derived their authority from the monarch, who derived it from God.

>>751038

>We shouldn't try to justify sin by finding loopholes in the system.

We don't. The Bible is our authority. The laws of men is what we navigate around. If a law is anti-Christian, are you bound in obedience to it? Of course not. I'm not saying that is the case with intellectual property mind you, just that the laws of men have no authority over what the Scriptures demands of us. Copying simply is not stealing and to equate both actions negates the truth and we are obliged to recognise truth.

>>751020

The stealing was the second part of person B's actions, not the mere act of copying.

To charge the owner extra to use something he owns or to charge for how he uses it is a form of usury, which the Church has always condemned (cf. Pope Benedict XIV's Vix Pervenit), because usury "is to sell what does not exist" (St. Thomas Aquinas's Summa Theologica II-II q. 78 a. 1 c.).

>>751046

I'm not sure if price fixing is the way to avoid "stealing", anon. Assuming he is not selling at a loss (which is considered dumping and is illegal is most judicial systems anyway) and is merely competing in the market place, he is not doing anything wrong or unlawful.

>>751050

The point I'm getting at is that mere copying is morally murky, edging on morally neutral, but copying and then selling the copies to compete in the marketplace with the original is /absolutely/ immoral.

>>751054

While I do see your point, I politely disagree. It again is something premised on the existence and observance of intellectual property laws. Copying is the reason why we have the Scriptures in the first place, I don't see how we're morally bound to celebrate and promote originality even if I do concede that it is for the most part wrong to take the bread out of the mouths of artists.

The pirate is immunized against all dangers: one may call him a weeb, russian, modernist, sinful, it all runs off him like water off a raincoat. But call him a thief and you will be astonished at how he recoils, how injured he is, how he suddenly shrinks back: “I’ve been found out.”

>>750862

I don't pay and I don't anime.

>>751020

Patents are made for situations like that. Patents are also made to expire. The reason for that is that the society is bettered by inventions becoming public knowledge usable for all so that meaningful competition can exist and that others can refine and build on earlier inventions.

>>751020

>stealing future profits

>stealing something that doesn't exist

>stealing

Nope.

You can't steal an idea and you can't steal things that don't exist. The future doesn't exist, and once it does we don't call it future anymore.

So if those profits didn't manifest, it is not possible to steal them.

>>751038

>somebody acquires something

>he shares it with me

>this is a sin

Did Jesus sin when he earned our redemption and just gave it away (and he still does to this day btw) to anyone who was willing to take it? I'm pretty sure the devil wasn't thrilled about his loss of future possession of souls that he worked very hard to corrupt.

>b-but it's not the same thing

Keep telling yourself that if you want to, but I will not submit to your corporate shilling. Piracy is not theft, and it's not a sin either. At best it's a "crime", but even that is VERY debatable.

>>751102

>the jew recoils when he is called a jew because it's true

>the pirate simply laughs off the hilarious accusation of being a thief

Bad comparison.

>>750981

I know you're not just downloading a mp4 when you watch one on the interwebs, but the picture in your thumbnail is technically copyrighted and in your possession.

In these times you can never be too careful with this to be honest.

>buy item

>make a mold of item and reproduce it

>government steps in and says you have to pay the original creator (including tax) everytime you reproduce said item

>this is """""stealing"""""

Reminder intelectual property is a monopoly on the free market to produce more tax and less competition. It is not a sin to pirate, it is a sin to enforce piracy laws!

>>751282

Because liberation theology is cancer typical fruits of the Jesuits

>>751282

*angry NPC noises intensify*

>>751290

>if you actually pay for goods and services, you are an NPC

Oy vey …

>>751296

I just can't even, I just, people ACTUALLY disagree with me? Seriously? In 2019? People STILL hold beliefs different from mine? What the flip! I just can't even!

>>750896

No, America is an (((oligarchy))) like most of the western world. Also, this >>750893

Varies widely from state to state. In my country, copyright infringement is only really illegal when it's done for profit, such as in bootlegging.

>>751333

>communism is the product of God

Can't we excommunicate you for this?

I certainly reported you for this.

>Now I'm just here to watch just how ridiculous the mental gymnastics and lawyerism on the pro-pirate side can get.

Except we don't need those things.

God's laws are universal, meaning that they apply to everyone.

But if in my country piracy is okay, and in yours it isn't, that would mean that God's law is ultimately subject to human law, which is ridicolous. If we go with your line of thought, God's law will depend on what the courts say in one country compared to what they say in another.

So if my country allows piracy, it's not a sin for me according to your line of thought because I'm not violating the law, but it's sinful for an american to do it, because "muh human law".

Fun fact: Government can legislate sinful behaviour, and it can outlaw moral behaviour.

>>750893

>I don't think you can call it stealing since no one is being dispossessed.

The creator is absolutely robbed of payment like any other transaction for a given profession or trade. It takes time and resources to develop a creation and just because it is effortless to proliferate does not mean that the creator is not robbed.

>>751346

Refuted by this >>751213

You can't steal something that doesn't exist.

>>751345

>Can't we excommunicate you for this?

>I certainly reported you for this.

Lol, this is new too: a pro-pirate getting triggered and wanting to ban someone's speech? I thought ya'll were all about freedom of speech and information? Let's see what effects communism had on Eastern Europe:

Some Orthodox fought against it. Some gave into it via Sergianism. So it separated some sheep and goats. In the long term, reaching peak Marxist degeneracy under communism put Eastern Europe in a horrific state of ruin that it is still recovering from to this day. On the other hand, it has also made Eastern Europe especially bitter towards, and thus inoculated against, the Radical Leftism that has infected the West (i.e. Soros institutions have been kicked out, the greatest resistance against the migration invasion has come from Eastern Europe due to actually caring about it's borders and women, etc.)

Unlike us, as explicitly stated in the Book of Job, God can see the big picture, which we can only catch glimpses of in hindsight. God is in control and all is according to his plan, period.

>Fun fact: Government can legislate sinful behaviour, and it can outlaw moral behaviour.

Exactly! Sort of how like the Supreme Court can rule that "copying is not theft" >>751015

and also approve of abortion!

And the answer to your conundrum is simple and stated before by God himself through the Bible: >>750990 as long as a civil law does not violate God's law: obey it. If it does violate God's law, disobey it. Of course now you're going to spin this into "Anti-piracy laws violate God's law because xyz!" And the show goes on….

>>750887

The downloading of copyrighted content is not illegal in the US. It is only the uploading/distribution of content that is illegal. Thus, for America at least, one must provide an argument against piracy using theology. In a country where it ‘’is’’ illegal to download copyrighted content it is a sin but not a mortal sin because it is not a grave matter. Distribution, however, is a grave matter because it causes financial damages.

>But piracy is theft and theft is a sin.

Theft implies the taking of something from one person. That is not how data works. If you have a picture and I copy that picture and download it onto my hard drive I have not committed theft. Why? Because you still have that data on your hard drive. That’s how data works. It’s only theft if one person having it means the other does not.

>But then they aren’t being compensated for their work.

How do content creators make money then and get compensated with piracy being bigger than ever? Why do people buy media at all? We all know it isn’t because they have a strict moral compass, it certainly isn’t because they fear the law (the law hardly ever prosecutes for piracy) and neither is it because piracy is difficult to do. Then why? There are two answers. One is because of the “experience” of owning a physical copy, but this is the less important of the two. The other reason is because they wish to support the creator for the work they are doing. Many small bands have tried this model; distributing their content for free and asking their fans for support, and had great success. Content creators that make good products are getting compensated by it by people who can afford to do so. The media industry is bigger than ever before monetary wise. They are being duly compensated by the market for their work.

> mfw christian justifying piracy

i do torrent anime, due to my laziness at finding an easy way to give proper moneys. i think piracy is obviously a form of theft though.

>>752661

>I commit what I believe to be sin because I’m lazy

Opinion discarded.

>>750862

Just stream it on vrv, chrunchyroll, or kissanime, or sites like that. If they were illegal they would have been taken down long ago

>>751483

>le piracy is le theft meme

Still not theft.

Theft is taking something away from someone.

Copying is by definition not that.

>>752657

>piracy is a sin

>it's a sin if you take what is shared with you

No.

Sorta similar question: What about media when it isn't clear if it falls under fair use/copyright problems? For example:

-Clips/scenes of shows/movies on youtube

-Recording footage of gameplay on youtube

-Fan-made media, such as fanfiction, fan comics, or game sprite comics/animation (If so, does the author of the original work's opinion on such fan media factor in?)

-Any fan discussion of narrative media that uses imagery from said media, whether it be an imageboard post or a video or whatever

These things aren't clearly fair use, but they aren't clearly against copyright. Are they wrong?

>>752701

What? Did Jesus say, “Thou shalt not use Crunchyroll to watch one punch man’s season 2?”

>>753116

>one punch man

Not necessarily a sin, but definitely shit taste.

>>753128

Not gonna stop me from watching it, but out of interest what would you recommend?

>>753177

It’s funny you say mob because the same creators for mob and one punch man are the same. But thanks, it’s in my queue now

>>750981

That's literally how websites work. You store everything to your temporary files. Unless you're clearing your cache every time you leave a page. If you click a thumbnail you fetch it and store the full image somewhere on your drive, even if it's no longer in memory. Computers work by copying, you can't get around it.

>>753202

And to be clear I'm not saying the law is defined otherwise. I'm only saying from a technical perspective there's not a clear definition of when it's against the law, and it's apparent said laws are written by people who understand little about computers but a lot about politics. You should definitely do whatever the law says though, whether it's logical or not, it isn't immoral.

>>752667

One could say the same about certain torrent sites.

I'm member of a (semi)closed torrent site that stays online because they ban every torrent who's anime gets licensed on Crunchyroll or whatever.

Got to be honest too, it's all pretty expensive and not easy to get online in decent quality.

I mean, where can I buy 1080p 10bit anime and download it DRM-free with good subs?

I only know of blu-ray, but who gives about discs it's CURRENT YEAR guys I want my anime like my games on Steam.

Even sites where you can stream it legally like Crunchyroll have a very limited supply and all very popular crap like Naruto, Boruto, Fairy Tail, One Piece etc. and the same counts for their manga.

The reason why anime and manga gets pirated is because the legal supply is laughable at best, and the quality is shite too.

If you're going to pay for anime, import the Japanese BDs. Localizers are a cancer on the industry, and "pirating" the TV version of an anime series is functionally identical to your friend recording it as it airs and you going over to his house to watch it. That's not a sin. Also, if you're watching anime as it airs on TV in Japan, you're not paying the creators at all in many cases. If you have cable you're paying for that, but that money isn't what funds anime, sales of BDs and other merchandise does that.

Also, consider that if your reading of Romans 13:1-2 would require you to take the mark of the beast (buying or selling without it is illegal, after all), you may be misunderstanding it.

>>753114

bump

Selling software you didn't make is obviously immoral

Downloading a cracked version of some software that you can get easily is probably immoral, especially if the developers still make money off of it

Downloading a NES rom that does not make the original workers money anymore isn't immoral because nobody is losing anything

If I was to buy a secondhand videogame from a store then the original workers who made the game don't make any money, it makes no difference to them if I either download it online or buy it through a third party, which alot of the time is the only option to obtain this software because the developers no longer sell or support it, is it immoral to download a .iso of windows xp?

The worker is certainly due his wages so dont withhold them from him if you want his work and he is selling it, render onto Caesar what is Caesars

Another thing of note, is it immoral to not follow a law if its not enforced at all? In the UK it is law that every boy over the age of 14 needs to practice with a bow 2 hours a week, but just like people downloading nes roms its not enforced at all, is it immoral to not practice archery now?

>>750862

Viewing pirated streaming content is not illegal where I live, so I'm not breaking the law when I do. I watch it non-pirated when it has been made available and only watch pirated when I cannot get it non-pirated. They aren't losing any money from me because I would not be able to pay them to watch it if I wanted to. Also if I really like something I might buy the Blu-Ray or the manga so they would at least get something from me. I think copyright laws are dumb but I obey those that I am subject to.

>>750868

What if you tape it on VHS from a TV Tokyo stream? Is rewatching old baseball games a sin too?

>>758012

>Viewing pirated streaming content is not illegal where I live

Literally what?

>>758047

I'm in Canada. Unless the copyright law has changed recently unbeknownst to me, streaming copyrighted videos is legal. Only downloading copyrighted videos to save to your hard drive is illegal.