/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>749438

Take fetuses and hide them in your basement to keep the gestapo from murdering them?

>cut off their right thumb

No.

>>749447

… this

What ever God's wrath is, remember he is the Just Judge, and they will get to know his temper.

All man-made laws are invalid before God.

>>749447

>remember he is the Just Judge

Yes I know but this applies more to the people that shouldn't have gotten away with it but have, and not an excuse for us to look the other way

I thought our father expected us to do whatever was in our power to stop heinous acts, even use (the least amount of) violence, from there comes the concept of just war, I'm struggling to find good reason as to why cutting those peoples' thumbs off is immoral as that would seem to stop the crime and not involve that much violence or greatly damage our movement of criminalizing abortion

thoughts?

>>749462

meant for >>749449

>>749462

>I thought our father expected us to do whatever was in our power to stop heinous acts, even use (the least amount of) violence, from there comes the concept of just war, I'm struggling to find good reason as to why cutting those peoples' thumbs off is immoral as that would seem to stop the crime and not involve that much violence or greatly damage our movement of criminalizing abortion

That's honestly Islam method thinking.

Just because we have the truth of the gospel doesn't mean we can impose it upon others. Yeah, we should condemn them and be vocal, yeah we need and should stand in the way of misdeeds that fall upon humanity.

But we are to be set apart from them. To abuse another mans free will as to punish him severely in a grotesque manner is barbaric and appalling.

We are not their judge, we are merely their jailor if even that.

We cannot impose the Faith onto them just as God does not impose it onto us.

Pray for their repentance, pray and God's justice will be swift and mighty.

>>749438

I understand that violence is not something to be glorified, but I don't see why it should be frowned upon either. God will violently punish the wicked, plenty of violence was committed in the old testament at the command of God himself, and Jesus even resorted to violence when the jews defiled the temple with their corruption.

If you ask me, committing violence against those who practice abortion is perfectly fine, you are after all trying to protect an innocent child's life. If you happened upon somebody trying to kill a 5 year old kid in a back alley or something, you wouldn't try to 'convince them of the value of life', you'd either stop them yourself or get somebody who can stop them (call the police). Whichever you choose, violence is ultimately the solution.

It may help to think of violence in the same way you think of sex. Sex just for pleasure between complete strangers is degenerate and sinful, but sex between a married couple for the purpose of raising children is a wonderful thing.

>>749469

>Abuse another mans free will

That's what I thought at first, we can do something so long as we don't infringe on the dignity or free will of the other, but personal liberty clearly stops when someone chooses to murder doesn't it?

and all societies seem to agree, if violence is the only way, what then?

>Islam method of thinking

>Impose faith upon others

That's not what I'm proposing, I never intended to punish the perpetrator just prevent the grave crimes he commits unto others, emphasis on "grave" and "others", a "jailor" like you say

I don't want to hurt them either but it seems maiming is the only way of saving 8 lives

The correct translation of the 5th commandment is “Thou Shall Not MURDER.” Some killing is sanctioned, either directly by God or indirectly by his administrators (those writing government legislation, who the bible tells us were appointed by God). This is why killing is allowed in war - it’s sanctioned by thise in power.

It is true that Christians are not to get abortions as per pur administrators (in the church). However, because it was sanctioned by the U.S, government, it is not up to us Christians to attack abortion doctors for performing legl killing. We must instead be the light of the word, and be a positive influence

>>749500

>I don't want to hurt them either but it seems maiming is the only way of saving 8 lives

You have gotten answers already, continuing this line of thinking is unhealthy for you as a Christian individually and for the community as a whole.

>>749500

Ok, first of all, you're advocating criminal violence against another human being. Second of all, cutting off someone's thumb doesn't really prevent anything.

>>749504

>>749503

I'll stop debating and look more into this, but finding a moral ground is not unhealthy

>cutting someone's thumb doesn't do anything

Have you tried doing anything without your dominant hands' thumb? Roman soldiers used to cut their thumbs off so they would get dismissed (they couldn't hold a sword)

>>749509

You are not on the moral ground.

We are telling you this. Your pursuit is apparently vain and prideful, this is not Holy avenue you are going in with this fullheadedness.

>>749509

We live in an age where any limb can be replaced by a highly effective prosthetic. We're not Muslims. We don't live in the 7th century.

>>749511

>vain and prideful

Don't assume my intentions, I would pray for that man, for I inflicted pain onto him, I would even pay for his medical bills

Present real arguments

>>749512

Still wouldn't cut it for a surgeon

>>749521

>I have no argument and I must meme

>>749548

>for a surgeon

Perhaps, but there are thousands of surgeons in line behind the one whose thumb you just cut off. So, you go to prison for aggravated assault and the abortion gets done anyway.

The basic premise of self defense applies to defense of others

If you live in such a dystopian country that doesn't allow lethal force to stop a rape you should leave fast

>>749453

Boring maxim

God instituted human systems for justice

>>749561

>defense of others

That doesn't apply to the unborn child of a woman seeking an abortion. Not in the US, anyway.

>>749551

>thousands of surgeons are still available

Maybe, but at least you buy the kiddos some time until they're recognized as humans and it's not like clinics are fast food restaurants, there are only a handful per state

Besides, that's flawed logic, it's obviously to make it harder

>why criminalize abortions, if women want to abort they'll do it anyways

>>749578

>do you really think they're getting away with anything?

What I meant was that there are some that take the will of God as Karma, I never proposed punishment, like I have said before, only prevention

>>749586

do you take god's justice to be something similar to karma?

god has always let us do what we want to do AFTER he has told us what we SHOULD do.

god does not prevent the wicked from committing sin.

god does judge the wicked accordingly.

>>749586

>at least you buy the kiddos some time

Not really.

>cut of Dr Smith's thumb

>Dr Jones steps up within 5 minutes

Not a lot of time. Do you understand how medicine works?

>>749577

Agreed that it's an injustice

>>749588

>no capital G on God

>uses PUNCTUATION to STRESS a point

>thinks he sounds smart by using the same sentence starter

Read my posts again, and if you have time, the Vatican document on just wars

You'll find I don't disagree with you on anything

>>749592

I see where you're coming from, the American abortion industry has been systematized gg

But it still seems this kind of approach could be moral if the situation just becomes more practical

>be Cuban

>there's just a bunch of over demanded state run abortion clinics

>not free to protest

In this case maiming the surgeon would make a difference, save some lives

What then?

>>749620

There is nothing moral about violently maiming another human being.

>>749621

But what if doing so ment saving countless other lives?

>>749623

If you can prove that cutting off one doctor's thumb will save lives, then I suppose you might have an argument; but I guarantee you that cutting off someone's thumb doesn't save anyone.

>>749634

Geeze … you really want to slice up people … I will pray for you.

>>749636

Geeze…your sloth really wants to allow babies to be murdered…I'll pray for you.

>>749638

I don't want anyone to be murdered. ANYONE … including people who you personally want to be murdered.

>>749620

was my punctuation unclear or blasphemous?

you mentioned karma vaguely, and i wasn't sure what you thought about it. you say you don't disagree with me on anything, yet you "never proposed punishment". does not judgement come in the form of punishment?

>2322 From its conception, the child has the right to life. Direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, is a "criminal" practice (GS 27 § 3), gravely contrary to the moral law. The Church imposes the canonical penalty of excommunication for this crime against human life.

you would not only be preventing abortion doctors from sacrificing children, you would be punishing and judging them for their crimes.

>2309 The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:

>- the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

>- all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

>- there must be serious prospects of success;

>- the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

i suppose if you kept to these, the Church wouldn't have a problem with it. looks pretty strict, desu.