/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>743884

1. Eastern Orthodox

2. Yes

3. Yes

4. Because we are all innately effected by Adam's sin, from the moment we are conceived, and so we are necessarily too weak to turn toward God and be deified. Only baptism followed by the Eucharist can make us righteous and save us. Othewise we remain ennemies of God.

>>743887

>Only baptism…

would that include the infant baptism the EO practices?

>>743889

Not only infant baptism, but all baptism practiced by the EO.

Bishops disagree as to whether those who are not Orthodox are actually baptized or not, although concerning salvation it's not very relevant since they cannot be saved without the Eucharist anyway.

>>743892

cheers, i am remiss in my lernins on the EO, to my shame; and i thank you for the insight

if we might go back to some of the other terms you used; could you explain the Eastern Orthodox view of man being 'deified'?

>>743884

1)EO

2)Yes…maybe

3)Its not that simple

4)"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

It doesnt matter if someone "deserves eternal punishment" or not. Its about their choices and what they choose. Damned punish themselves by abhoring God and His love, while being at His presence.

http://www.orthodoxebooks.org/sites/default/files/pdfs/The%20River%20Of%20Fire%20-%20Doctor%20Alexandre%20Kalomiros.pdf

http://silouanthompson.net/2008/08/river-of-god/

http://orthochristian.com/46147.html

http://orthochristian.com/79592.html

>>743897

oh, interesting – would you say that you come from another school or stream of thought within EO than the first Eastern Orthodox poster?

No, it's Christ who does, the same Christ who said:

>Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

All Orthodox Christian can administer baptism although it is preferably done by a priest. The disagreement among bishops is whether Jesus's commandment to baptize is directed at His followers alone or if anyone is able to baptize.

>>743896

To be deified or divinized (theosis) is to become Christ-like, to put it simply. To make us become perfect like God is, God gives us His grace to become a new creation, to put on Christ, to be "in the shape of Christ" if I can put it that way. To be deified is to become by grace what God is by nature. Although that's also what Catholics believe.

>>743899

Maybe, though most bishops and priests I know at least teach so, even ones as radical as Russians are. I dont know about first anons experience or knowledge on matter so I cant say precisely.

Though despite what I stated, Orthodoxy generally holds mystical attitude towards afterlife and teaches to have faith and hope in God at the end, rather than overthinking about it. So there are numerous theologoumena (theological opinions) about various subjects and hesitate to adopt rigid and dogmatic views towards such subjects unlike, lets say, Catholicism that is somewhat opposite due t their adherence towards Scholasticism.

>>743901

>>743894

>>743901

>To be deified or divinized (theosis) is to become Christ-like,

ah, you're too good to me bro – i really do appreciate you taking the time to explain that, for while i recognised that we seem to be drawing from Romans 8:30, the use of the word 'deified' surprised me, since i would more usually read 'glorified'

…And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.

>>743902

>So there are numerous theologoumena…

yes, that's an impression i gathered from the discussions within the EO when reading up on a few figures within the church

and speaking of reading; thanks for the pdfs etc – will check them out in time

>>743884

Catholic,

Yes,

Everyone apart from God, the angels who passed the test and Mary.

Because we rejected God, the price of which is eternal damnation.

>>743911

nb4 this guy gets kicked for an infraction of rule 2

>>743912

> the angels who passed the test

are you referring to the rebellion of lucifer, and the the two-thirds of the angels who didn't side with him?

Sbc

Yes

Yes

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

The only way out is to believe on Jesus

>>743916

SBC would be Southern Baptist Convention, yeah?

can you explain a little what you mean by 'only way out' – do you mean 'out of Hell'?

>>74389

EO here, and no, God does. But our Bishops, being successors to the Apostles, called by God to lead, administer the Sacraments, and preach the Gospel, do have the authority to represent the Church in matters pertaining to Salvation (On this Rock, I will build my Church). The Church is the Body of Christ, and the revelatory fountain by which we find the full Truth.

>>743921

got a little confused there, i think you meant to reply to >>743894, yeah?

>>743917

Yes

Yes, colloquially

I'm not meaning to say you go to hell first then get out, I mean out of your status as damnable while living

If you believe on Jesus you will not go to hell, but if you don't you will.

>>743887

>Adam's sin

Wasnt eve the one that sinned

>>743884

1.catholic

2. No. God will annihilate the souls of sinners at the second judgement (at least that is how I understand it)

3. People punish themselves, meaning that all punishment is the direct result of their sins.

4. God loves us infinitely and eternally, and perfectly. That means that he doesn't punish us, he doesn't hate us, and even when he judges us, he does it so that we notice how far we have fallen. That being said, I guess there is such a thing as "have fallen too far". People who went so far in sin that it would never occur to them that there is a better way, or they actively scoff at the very idea of redemption.

To people and souls like that the only mercy is to put them out of their misery, and I believe that is what will eventually happen to them.

This is why it's important to recognize that God is calling all of us at every moment of every day, because that is the only way to avoid such a terrible fate.

>>743958

Yes, whoever believes in him shall not perish

>>743915

Yes

>>743962

Annihilationism is heresy. Human souls are immortal

>>743884

1. Lutheran

2. Yes

3. Certainly, although I don't enjoy the thought of anyone being eternally punished.

4. Because we are all sinful right from the get-go and throughout our entire lives. Show me a man without sin and I'll show you Christ.

>>743956

Eve listened to the serpent first, but Adam did nothing.

>>743956

Eve was tricked by the snake, who carefully twisted God's words, manipulating her (and our) desire to reach the divine and become gods. In comparison, Adam was first and fully told about the forbidden fruit and he listened to the foolish Eve instead of God. Then Eve participated in Adam's sin by also eating of the fruit, but originally the fault is Adam's.

>>743983

>Adam did nothing.

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. Genesis 3:7

Adam ate the forbidden fruit instead of saying, "Nah, woman, put that back."

>>743999

Sorry, Gen 3:6.

>>743884

> non denominational although I consider myself a Protestant

>yes

>unless they accept Christ

>”All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.”-Romans 3:23 The punishment for unrepented sin is eternal death, so unless they accept Christ…

1. Anglican

2. Yep

3. Except Jesus

4. Sin

DONE

>>744180

Except unbaptized babies who have no actual sin and only the sinful nature.

>>743999 (checked)

This. Adam was tasked to lead Eve and his failure to do so was sinful.

>>743999

You misunderstand. He literally stood there and did nothing during the whole conversation with the serpent. He failed to fulfill his role as the head of his wife.

>>743916

Ditto

1. Orthodox

2. There is eternal state of separation from God and animosity towards God and therefore suffering.

3. "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways, for why will you die." (Ezekiel 33:11) God doesn't want anyone to be eternally suffering and we don't want this to happen. Nevertheless, many are going to be suffering for eternity despite what God wants.

4. Why? Because God respects what kind of person each of us is. He is not going to change forcefully the bad man to make him good.

>>744213

Was he standing there? I always got the impression that Adam didn't witness the conversation, but I could be wrong. Also, at that point the husband wasn't the head of the wife. They were partners.

Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. Gen 2:24

>>743892

>Bishops disagree

I think the disagreement is not about the theory but terminological and, more importantly, about what is the best practice to follow when people join the Church.

The traditional Greeks would say that there are no sacraments outside the Church and in particular no baptism. When, however, one becomes a member of the Orthodox Church, his invalid baptism can be acknowledged as valid by economy because it is not the priest who performs the sacraments but God. For example on Mount Athos they perform baptism on catholic or protestant who comes to the Orthodox Church. On the other hand, the Churches of Greek origin in US usually acknowledge the baptism of the catholics and some protestants. I am not sure the Church in Greece has a rule about this because they don't have converts. Once I invited a guest of mine, Greek from Greece to watch the baptism of adults in my Church and for him this was a great attraction.

Most Russians, on the other hand, would say that that there is baptism outside the Orthodox Church, this baptism, however, is void of grace. This baptism becomes efficacious only when one becomes a member of the Orthodox Church. The Churches with Russian origin don't baptize catholics joining the Orthodox Church.

>>743884

>Catholic

>Yes

>No obviously not or everyone would go to hell, it would defeat the purpose of Christianity

>If you think everyone deserves that you are a retarded larper

>>744667

45“Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’

46“These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Matt 25

>>744667

>the bible isn't allowed to teach something I don't like because that's "pagan"

<Anabaptist "logic"

>>744677

What does that have to do with the Anabaptists?

>>743901

>become by grace what God is by nature

Complete blasphemy

>>744681

It's Anabaptist thinking, this idea of nullifying the bible if it happens to align with tradition is the ground and pillar of the Radical Reformation

>>744687

That's a hot take

I seem to remember anabaptists believing so urgently in rightly practicing what the text said that they would rather face execution than disavow their totally nonthreatening practice of adult baptism by immersion

>>744695

yes the totally nonthreatening practice of adult baptism by immersion

what is the background of the depiction in the woodcut?

>>744702

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Peasants'_War

>Radical Reformers and Anabaptists, most famously Thomas Müntzer, instigated and supported the revolt.

Also, bonus points

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Münster_rebellion

Anabaptists were violent terrorists that instituted unspeakable horrors in the few cases where they actually took power, and that is why (at least in Protestant states) they were persecuted.

>>744728

>Is the munster rebellion the result of practicing believers baptism?

No, it's the result of the fanatical radicalism which likewise resulted in re-baptism. But that's not my point because 6c504c said "they would rather face execution than disavow their totally nonthreatening practice of adult baptism by immersion", which is how this tangent started. The point is they weren't being executed because they re-baptized, they were executed because they were dangerous insurrectionaries.

>they took the Bible at it's word

they nullified the parts of the bible that aligned with tradition*

>Zwingli and the Zurich council

They were most wise. They could see what the Anabaptists were before they revealed themselves.

>>744685

<become by grace what God is by nature

>Complete blasphemy

Good. I sense here a man who is beginning to understand how incredible the Orthodox concept of deification is. The truth is truly incredible.

The Son of God, who is Light from Light and true God from true God, became flesh, born as human, named Jesus, human like us in everything but the sin. The world had came into existence through him and he came in the world and lived with us. And to those who received him he gave the privilege to become God's children, to become born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but born of God. A new creation!

To deny deification is to deny what the Christ is. Human just like us. And yet also God.

>>743962

>1.catholic

>2. No. God will annihilate the souls of sinners at the second judgement (at least that is how I understand it)

Absolute heresy. The souls of the sinners will be united with their bodies just like the righteous will, but they will be thrown to Hell to suffer for all eternity.

1. Southern Baptist that wants to see Russell Moore and the other """""leadership""""" hung from lampposts.

2. Yes.

3. Yes.

4. Says so in the Bible, and that we are only spared because of Christ, not ourselves.

1. kinda Catholic (lapsed)

2. yes

3. at times yes, but mostly because I hate myself

4. humanity, and myself foremost, disgusts me…

>>747269

>4. humanity, and myself foremost, disgusts me…

>t. satan

"no"

>>743884

1. baptist

2. yes

3. yes

4. because we all have sinned, and heaven and hell are outside time and eternal. If we have to have any punishment, it would be eternal by necessity.

1. Predenominational

2. Yes

3. Yes

4. Because that's how perfect God is

1. Catholic

2. Yes

3. No, not Jesus (of course) and Mary

4. We are all lost through original sin without the grace of our Lord's sacrifice through Baptism

1.Anglican/Episcopalian

2. Yes

3. Every man has fallen short, so yes (except Jesus obviously because He's God, came into the world fully God and fully man)

4. We are born into sin ever since the fall of man, when Adam and Eve ate the fruit.

1. CRC or PCA depending on location (although CRC is often kinda cucked, so sometimes protestant reformed or URC)

2. Of course, everyone who doesn't know Christ will face eternal damnation, a prospect too horrifying for our minds to understand.

3. Probably yes, it's an immensely confusing issue and hard to understand why it needs to be that way.

4. I can't understand the ways of God, I just try to accept it. It's only God's elect that are saved, but I can't say why.

>>743884

1. Roman Catholic

2. Yes

3. Yes

4. Because the Creator is always right, and if a person disobeys Him, that person deserves to be eternally punished. Everyone is affected by Adam's sin, our nature is fallen, and only through worshipping God, having faith in Him and obeying His commandments can we be saved.

>>743884

1. Assemblies of God (Pentecostal)

2. Yes

3. Yes

4. "for all have sinned", "there is no one who does good, not even one" etc etc By our own merits we all deserve hell.

>>743956

No, because women have no accountability.

>>751029

>The woman given punishment (Gen 3:16) BEFORE the man (Gen 3:17)

>women have no accountability

God disagrees with you.

>>751034

>God disagrees with you.

I agree with God disagreeing with me.

>>751039

Agreed