/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

Look into Hesychasm instead.

>>741246

Rosary meditation gives much more benefits.

>>741248

I'll look into it.

>>741250

>idolatry

Not really, meditation in the purest sense and of what Buddha thought (I don't even think he "invented" it), is letting go of your bodily senses and thoughts, all the while accepting it as part of your nature and being.

Its a way to connect yourself and feel god and the universe as one. That in its purest sense I mean, not all that esoteric babble, its not about idolizing anyone and I think that reflects in how it never was an organized religion in that sense.

Briefly looking at what above said, I think it draws a lot of parallels to Hesychasm.

>>741301

If you're getting guided in meditation by Buddhists, you're going to be learning Buddhist meditation. Always treat anything "Spiritual" and not explicitly Christian with suspicion. Hesychasm is similar, but everything about it is explicitly Christian, and done with the explicit purpose of drawing closer to God.

>>741313

Similarly spritual* I mean that they have a similar "feel". They're actually very different at the core.

>>741301

I question the point of "letting bodily senses go" and similar ways of describing meditation. It's certainly good to focus purely on the Lord, but focusing on letting go of your senses is a quick way to invite ANY spirit, good or bad. The Holy Spirit fills you whether you are meditating or not. Why then should I let my guard down like the bhuddists do? I don't think they do so for the sake of inviting spirits, but it happens regardless

>>741246

Do you think buddhists can just find God by emptying their mind, no need for Jesus or anything?

It makes no sense from a christian point of view.

>>741313

>getting guided in meditation by buddhists

there is no such thing, there are mantra and ambience they so to guide meditation but that is just a mechanism, you might as well pray the rosary as long as it can get you aware enough the state

>>741337

I've guess that passed the wrong sense, you actually become very aware within, for example, the other day I was so focused I could feel a mosquito landing on my leg and doing his stuff, and didn't let that bother me

another way of putting it, is achieving complete awareness without thinking about it, so you calm down and mute your ego thoughts, fear, angst, and the such, a way of acceptance at the same time, but not identifying with them

>>741339

I would describe as way of becoming whole and connecting with god, what buddha said and buddhists practice is slightly different,

it may not relate with the church's view, but it does with the bible and what christ said, you know about he being everywhere and whenever you search for and accept him into your life

christian meditation is much different than the buddhist/eastern meditation. The eastern ones are trying to receive the "kundalini" antichrist spirit, while christian meditation is meditating on the word of God, thinking and deciphering a certain verse or couple of verses. Read Psalms 1:1-3

>>741361

How about you actually study eastern religion before you talk stupid crap like this?

>>741339

Dharmic gurus literally believe that Jesus was the personal manfestation of God's divine grace.

What does Jesus say?

"I am the way the life and the truth, no-one comes to the Father but through me"

What do christians teach?

We are saved through God's grace.

If you reject Jesus you reject God's grace, and if you reject God's grace, you reject Jesus, because Jesus was his greatest gift to us.

As for buddhists specifically:

The Buddha was a follower of sanatana dharma.

He was not a buddhist.

And they find God by realizing themselves and then realizing the divine spark within themselves and that it's from God.

And they don't "empty their mind".

They are focusing on the names of God (they chant them in mantras)

>>741400

Except they don't truly find God.

>>741417

Nobody finds God.

And everybody does after they die.

Nice resentful remark though, very Christian of you.

>>741427

useless platitudes

You find God when you're saved

<6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.

<7 "If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." (Jn. 14:6-7 NAS)

>>741246

There is nothing wrong with sitting quietly and contemplating creation.

>>741246

Anon don't fall into pagan practices and prayers when the Holy Mother Church has richness beyond imagination when it comes to meditations and prayers.

That kind of meditation is satanic, here is some good resources for genuine Christian medtiation

http://www.awakentoprayer.org/method_metal_prayer.htm

and section from intro to the devout life on it

https://www.catholicity.com/devoutlife/2-01.html

classic in Christian spirituality, more in depth but gives a really good basic overview, hit next to see the next sections.

I'll keep this simple and say there are two types of meditation

One is where the mind is emptied of distractions

One is where the mind is filled with the wisdom of the Word of God

We are only commanded to do the latter and it is a good thing to dwell upon the word of The Lord

The former may be useful to those who can utilize it, but it is an external tool like a computer which can be used for good or for sin

One of the differences I've heard about the east vs the west was something along the lines that while the westerner or Christian and perhaps Abrahamic by extension is more extrospective always looking outward, the easterner looks within.

>>742007

>>742005

>>741250

Non Christian or Buddhist practitioner here but knowledgeable on some of both.

While the normative currents might be more abstract and philosophical, other currents such as the Tantric ones could be more easily considered idolatrous by you all. Those involve plenty of visualization of Bodhisattvas during meditation, chanting of their names, offerings of light (with candles I believe), and other rituals that might make anti-idolatrists squirm. Such currents are said to have historically become popular among laypeople due to being promoted as an expedited method toward enlightenment.

Even so the rejection of other deities may not have necessarily been an obligation in mainstream Buddhism but it isn't the focus either.

Anyway that was my take on it, hope it helped.

So just bump this up and share a few insights.

Meditation in itself is a practice and not necessarily spiritual.

Its a practice of centering one's mind and giving less power to oneself's diverse "ego mentalities". I think in sense reflects on "the power of now", in way as described by Zen, is to stop living in the past and stop worrying with the future, by present in the fluidity of now, kinda like my OP picture describes.

One way seeing it, is that pre Buddha followers of dharma, tried to achieve holiness by being completely in control of ones mind and devoid of world needs, such and spending days in meditation, without worldly needs like fasting.

It is my understanding that Buddha instead tried for both living fully in the material world, and then fully in the spiritual, and reached the conclusion that one cannot achieve true enlightenment by excluding either one, that instead one must reach a balance. And that indeed one will never reach enlightenment without coming with terms to our own true nature, that is, to realize that we're human and must live the best we can with it.

On a more practical term, meditation really can help with overcoming depression and anxiety, to train one's brain to not always listen to those devilish voices in our conscious minds bringing us down, and to avoid spiraling downwards with negative emotions.

So with the above solved it opens space for us to cultivate more steady good emotions, while not forgetting the material world, actively seeking to improve one's self without worrying so much about the future either.

What I'm trying to say I guess, it can be a tool to combat anxiety, depression, even lack of motivation and ADD. And I'm not saying at all that one should forgo regular prayer and devotion to God, but instead that these can be complementary.

>>741417

What about the monks who literally mummify themselves simply through meditation? Looks like they become incorruptible like saints.

Basically >>741250 this, but I'll add mindfulness is basically Buddhism for white(/western) people and you shouldn't do it. Breathing exercises are ok, emptying your mind is not, and will likely attract demonic influences.

>>748216

>everything I don't know more about is demons

Life's a bit more complex than that bud.

People don't adhere to things for thousands of years because they're unfruitful.

>>748522

What exactly are you accomplishing by emptying your mind?

What are the fruits anon?

Where there is peace, there is no reason for salvation. Focus on the latter, not the former. Christianity is not a religion of retreat or void, but worship and humility.

"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" - Phil 2:12

"Pray without ceasing" - 1 Thes 5:17

>>748677

Clarity for one, which would be relevant to understanding.

>>741339

buddhist meditation lead me to Christ, in my final meditation I was overtaken by the appearance of baby Jesus and the understanding that an absolute good being exists and that his plan is unfolding as he chooses. After that I began reading christian saints and learning about theism, then the bible, then tried to live as a Christian. Still trying to be a Christian, it's hard. But there is some benefit to developing introspective awareness, quieting the mind and cooling the ego with all its lusts and desires.

Buddha taught some good stuff, similar to stoicism. His was just an incomplete system that ignored the person/soul/God.

>>748677

That would already be answered in above posts, particularly mine just above yours.

>>748735

Meditation isn't just a Buddhist practice, though, Hindu's use it as a means to achieve enlightenment/godhood/moksha etc. and they believe in God in various conceptions including Brahman.

Watched vid related the other day, interesting. Not so much talk on generic meditation specifically but a bit about yoga which is I guess a form of meditation.

>>748096

>On a more practical term..meditation can be complementary

This whole para, there must be a Christian-centred way to obtain the benefits you identify here without syncretising pagan eastern practice into your spiritual/mental wellbeing regime, surely? This isn't a rhetorical question, I don't know what it is and asking sincerely

>>751010

>there must be a Christian-centred way to obtain the benefits you identify here without syncretising pagan eastern practice into your spiritual/mental wellbeing regime, surely?

I get what you're getting at, but there's nothing specifically pagan about the practice of meditation, in essence its only about focusing on something, becoming aware of the present and silencing our other loud mind voices.

In some dharma monasteries, they will sit steadily for hours chanting a mantra (what to focus on), trying their best to focused on the present while the master passes by a literally slashes those that he notices who thoughts are straying or dozing off. See the goal is to stay focused regardless of the distractions the world brings, and in a sense you can't deny them, but accept in order to overcome them.

This is why I thought it was very similar in way to Orthodox church meditation, in a way sitting there for hour chanting their prayer while being focused.

The way I learned meditation though is pretty different, it was through a christian esoteric order of sorts. All I do is sit quietly, either on a chair or what I do, by the side of my bed, straight back up, foot on the floor, square 90° on the knees, hand resting comfortably on my knees, and then just controlled respiration focusing on it and just letting thoughts go away.

I will do this before sleeping regardless if I'm too sleepy or not, sometimes with the lights on, or even with a lit candle with my eyes open focusing on the flame (harder to do at first, and eye keeps getting dry). The point is to just focus and let the distractions fly by, since I live in a city there are plenty too, outside cars, neighbor's telly, once I even felt a fly landing on my leg and going for it.

Same with thoughts, usually whatever is worrying you will keep popping up and trying to get to your focus, but you must just accept it and let it become some sort of lower background noise, and eventually rid of it. The overall point I've guess is to not let your worries over the past and the future overwhelm and trouble you, to lower the noise that bring us anxiety and stay focused on the present to do what we must do.

>>741248

>Hesychasm

can this be practiced in a float tank?

>>751622

>>>/fringe/

>>751577

>what Buddha thought is that desire in itself is all the source of suffering

Ignorance is the source of suffering. Desire is downstream of ignorance.

>Another here is that he never saw himself as holy and asked to be praised by his image, according to legend he only made a school to pass on his teachings, making the whole religion of buddhism and its idolization quite pointless in his own view.

This is Theravada Buddhism or real Buddhism if you ask me. Pure Land Buddhism and all the other Asian denominations of Buddhism turned him into a Jesus figure or a god.

>>751022

>I get what you're getting at, but there's nothing specifically pagan about the practice of meditation,

Granted but..

>In some dharma monasteries, they will sit steadily for hours chanting a mantra (what to focus on)

Often of the names of their gods and godesses that they're trying to invoke, correct? I understand there is the precedent for biblical mediation as already discussed, but when it's coming from the east, it's pagan.

>>751577

>vid

Spoopy stuff, do you have a link/source?

>maintained indifference to the demon King's daughter's trying to seduce him

See, I would be interested in trying to understand their perspective on this - we as Christians would think it proper to react negatively to such indicident, due to it being evil trying to tempt us into sin - but in the east they champion indifference? I get they don't have the same concept of sin as us, but a lot of what has come out of the east, seemingly particularly Buddhism, and to an extent related with esoteriscism, gnosticism, neo platonism etc. just seems to be simply a world/life hating/denying system, where everything is an illusion and nothing you experience is actually true reality, which is instead an all encompassing sea of non-personal unknowable 'nothingness' apparently? Christianity, (and inc. OT metaphysics - don't know if current Jews still hold to it given the invention of kabbala etc.) on the other hand seems to be the only system that is actually life-affirming, world affirming with God's creation designated as good (the concept of which itself has inherent value, seemingly unlike in other systems where that would otherwise be kinda meaningless) by default.

>inb4 we're not supposed to be of the word, etc.

I don't mean in that sense obviously

Vid related provides a great overview of this, see for few mins from 14.55, between explaning the perspective from the east as well as the modern atheistic scientist and the consequences and questions that are raised by each.

>>751577

>and thus the way to become enlightened is to kill desire and only then you will be able to die and break from reincarnation.

but then you either a) start to or need to desire to stop desiring, entailing a contradiction or b) literally eliminate all desire (somehow) in which case you won't care about anything anyway, including seeking to eliminate desire and obtaining enlightenment? And so it defeats the point? But then it seems eastern philosophy seems to revel in these types of conundrums as a fantastic mystery of reality rather than something to be seen as posing an actual contradiction and something to be resolved. I'm not especially learned so I don't know if thats an outright mischaracterisation but that's the impression I get from everything I've seen so far.

I get that Buddhism and the far east is interesting for comparison and contrast, and I'm always looking to learn more about them too, being curious, but if you're a small o orthodox Christian you need to concede that they provide zero additional value to the wisdom or insight contained and communicated in the bible and Christian tradition, while at the same time providing a substantial set of falsehoods and core philosophies which if taken to heart will see your soul damned. Not to mention potential for immense spiritual deception through invoking demonic entities posing as the local flavour of god or godess. Probably you're aware of this already, but felt the need to emphasise this in case not.

To my mind given the absurdity of atheism/materialism and how easily debunked it is in terms of coherence (hence the only flash in the pan popularity of the new atheists 10/15 years ago, which only seems to remain with edgy teens and fedoras online), combined with the ever increasing yearning for something that speaks to the soul and our spirit in reaction to our vapid consumerist silo'd lonely lives, the real threat is no longer militant, strong atheism which is what a lot of apologetics seems to focus on, but rather the increase in people taking up vague, lovey dovey, relativistic, pick and mix new age eastern influenced spiritual-but-not-religious type worldviews. I am not learned in the end times/eschaton at all really to be honest but from what I've seen there is a very good chance that the ultimate reality/principle/monad/absolute/'god'/whatever which is sought after across all these different systems is what will be the thrust of the new one world religion prohesised. Therefore we need to be vary careful in how we approach all of it.

I am not aware of any particularly good or effective apologetic ministeries and resources that examine, breakdown and refute these worldviews philosophically or otherwise (beyond Steven Bancarz, but he's great with backing everything up with scripture, but I think internal incoherence is the most useful and effective way, providing you're not unknowingly strawmanning, to cut right through to non-believers in the moment). So if anyone is aware of them I would appreciate a link. The book being shilled in vid >>751010 is apparently one such resource that purports to do that because the two guys know about the new age as former types themselves, in addition to recognising a lack of resources so seeing a massive gap in the market and Christian understanding of orthodoxy on and defence against such beliefs. While I'll still probably get the book, and those two no doubt seem like solid Christians who have produced it in good faith, must admit it all looks kinda corny though so wonder if there's anything more established out there that anons are aware of.

>>741427

>universalist

Enjoy your ban

>>753023

>Often of the names of their gods and godesses that they're trying to invoke, correct?

Not entirely, there is no invoking involved, search for the mantras and you will see what their meaning.

Also the very own concept of God differs from our own, most of the west thinks of god as a active entity, where as in the east its more like the embodiment of an idea or concept.

>Spoopy stuff, do you have a link/source?

Sure, here it is brother, I got this because of some old movie I saw as teenager about the subject, still not sure if this was it but its pretty close.

magnet:?xt=urn:btih:0bb97a99cdf6978dc8c1e1d7ed6ca7e2672c3c16&dn=BBC.The.Life.of.Buddha.DivX5.AC3.www.mvgroup.org.avi&tr=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mvgroup.org%3A2710%2Fannounce

>See, I would be interested in trying to understand their perspective on this - we as Christians would think it proper to react negatively to such indicident, due to it being evil trying to tempt us into sin - but in the east they champion indifference?

Not at all you got the wrong idea, its difference per se, but not giving them power. Even in christianity, a big point of it is for us to accept ourselves as sinners, part of our essence, to acknowledge that we may never rid of it entirely but must ask for forgiveness and repent. To me this comes very close to realizing our inner demons of desires (that are essentially sins) and that they are ever so present and in some form or another end up being source of our greatest afflictions. Realize that passion and hate and extremes opposites of the same coin, being in essence the same thing, so by hating on your sins you may actually give it strength.

>but then you either a) start to or need to desire to stop desiring, entailing a contradiction or b) literally eliminate all desire (somehow) in which case you won't care about anything anyway, including seeking to eliminate desire and obtaining enlightenment? And so it defeats the point? But then it seems eastern philosophy seems to revel in these types of conundrums as a fantastic mystery of reality rather than something to be seen as posing an actual contradiction and something to be resolved. I'm not especially learned so I don't know if thats an outright mischaracterisation but that's the impression I get from everything I've seen so far.

You're not entirely wrong, one of the realizations of enlightenment is understanding that we might never get to it, we can get close but never achieve godliness, at least not while alive. And such is the way in most eastern religions, they resolve their teachings around philosophy and mind conundrums. If you want to learn more I advise to check up on Allan Watts, he had books and audio lectures where he does just that, presenting the philosophy of zen buddhism to the western christian perspective.

Note too that I still value christianity above it all, in my point of view it provides a much more direct approach to salvation, even when sometimes to bible can seem cryptic.

And I also value the church, realizing that its a human institution, but one that goal is to provide community, order, discipline and doctrine, and to spread the word of God in a seemingly chaotic world. And that's another point, why do we have daily mass? And I think its to keep us reminded of his word, to always beg for forgiveness and hope we are not set astray from our paths.

>>754347

>Not entirely, there is no invoking involved, search for the mantras and you will see what their meaning.

disagree, just google 'meditiation invoke gods' or similar and you get plenty of results particularly regarding Hindu practice

>Also the very own concept of God differs from our own, most of the west thinks of god as a active entity, where as in the east its more like the embodiment of an idea or concept.

Yes re: west but there are many many small g gods in eastern religions which are personal entities as well as the kind of conception you describe above

>Sure, here it is brother

Thanks but not sure what to do with it? Is it a torrent link? At least I have the title can search for that.

>its difference per se

come again?

>Even in christianity, a big point of it is for us to accept ourselves as sinners, part of our essence

Not sure in what way you mean with this but in case: No, we're merely inclined to sin as a result of the fall, it is not part of our essence, the default, it is a defect that is required to be rectified to enable us to be able to commune with God which is our purpose in the first place

>To me this comes very close to realizing our inner demons of desires (that are essentially sins)

No, desire is not inherently evil or sinful - we must, and it is not wrong, to desire the good (i.e. God)

>Realize that passion and hate and extremes opposites of the same coin, being in essence the same thing,

No! Or you can say passion for God is negative!? Are you aware of the traditional Christian conception of evil as having no actual existence, merely being a lack of the good (which is God) and which is the default (see vid >>753023 ) in the Christian worldview?

>most eastern religions, they resolve their teachings around philosophy and mind conundrums.

I know right, hence Colossians 2:8 comes to mind

>Alan Watts

I went through a period recently in the past year for I don't know maybe like a good 6 months or more listening to AW on youtube most nights, with a view to understanding the eastern outlook more and, while at somepoint I do intend to start doing some more serious reading on the subject (I half jokingly tongue in cheek say I'm ashamed because the wanna-be intellectual in me understands that Alan Watts is a kind of babbie my-first-look-at-the-east stuff, and even then he has his critics) its all no doubt very interesting to listen to all I've come away with is that it's of literally zero value when coming from a Christian starting point. If you're not yet intellectually/spiritually tied to a particular tradition and open to starting from the axioms easterners have set up, then I'm sure it can be enlightening but to me the majority of it simply is not and I think any Christian needs to be seriously careful and wary taking in particular elements of eastern thought and practice uncritically, if at all.

>>754398

>Thanks but not sure what to do with it? Is it a torrent link? At least I have the title can search for that.

Its a magnet link, you can use to download torrent if you client allows that feature.

>>754404

Ok thanks, take it you're not interested in responding to any of the other points I raised? Shameless bump for continued discussion

>>758940

Sorry mate I hadn't seen your reply, but I will glad answer you, just want up for it at the time. Guess we're both some long terms lurkers here.

>>748522

I think I'll take professional exorcists word for it.

the sneaky thing about buddhism is that it incorporates meditation (which is beneficial) and a moral code (which is also beneficial) with a bunch of baseless and often contradictory metaphysical claims; so the trap is set. People start practicing "practicing" it to test it, they meditate and become a bit more generous, less anxious and depressed, and suddenly their life is better, so they give authority to the Buddha and start believing his other claims. Hey, if this stuff is beneficial then Buddha was probably right about "no self / rebirth / karma/ no-God / some impersonal nirvana state / etc"

But the deeper they go into buddhism the more emptiness they experience, literally and it's not the truth of life, it's just a wrong path which seemed so good at the start.

>>762728

You're perogative if you respond or not but if you think that in anyway you speak truth or I falsehood where we disagree then I would ask u to consider that said falsehoods (from your perspective) going unchallenged could lead anons to be misled if you don't reply

Quick bump, sorry anon, I will reply eventually but I kinda lost it with other stuff.

>>772532

lol nice to know anon, await your reply in your own time. Just impressed you retained the same ID throughout, does that mean your machine has been turned on and connected to the internet continuously since at least mid December when you made your first reply?

>>772655

He could just use static ip

>>741246

Prayer is a form of meditation, I'd wager.

>>741248

N A V E L G A Z I N G

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>>741246

>>774667

To clarify. Meditation has its proper use as a focus aid. I sometimes meditate before studying, or public speaking to get myself completely engaged in the activity. However we should be careful to interpret any extra-ordinary experiences through the scriptural worldview.

But omphaloskepsis, and the like just looks dumb.