ebc327 No.739615
https://www.dailywire.com/news/39222/pope-francis-implementing-change-lords-prayer-lead-paul-bois?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=angrypatriot
>The Vatican under Pope Francis will soon be implementing a change to the Lord's Prayer, also known as the Pater Noster, switching out the line "lead us not into temptation" for the Francis-approved "abandon us not into temptation."
According to the U.K.'s Express, the change to the Lord's Prayer comes after 16 years of research by experts who found a mistake in the current translation "from a theological, pastoral and stylistic viewpoint." It has been translated into literally hundreds of languages from the original texts in ancient Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic.
8d51c2 No.739617
>>739615
Literally don't care as I only say the Lords Prayer in Latin.
Also it should be: Induce us not in temptation
c7fbd0 No.739624
https://biblehub.com/greek/1533.htm
eispheró: lit. or fig. to carry inward
Original Word: εἰσφέρω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: eispheró
Phonetic Spelling: (ice-fer'-o)
Definition: to carry in
Usage: I lead into, bring in, announce.
Hmmm……
>experts who found a mistake in the current translation "from a theological, pastoral and stylistic viewpoint."
And yet none of those things have anything to do with linguistic translation. I prefer my scripture straight up, thanks.
1634b5 No.739633
So are they going to fix the stupid English translation?
Alleluia.
1634b5 No.739634
Not that Pope Francis one is better, but English is a shitty language what can one do.
In Latin derived languages the pater noster ends in something like: and don't let us fall into temptation.
The English version almost implies its not that leads you to temptations.
c1b3d0 No.739642
>implying God cares in what language you say prayers
572cf3 No.739646
>>739633
It literally means “lead”
Once again, the Catholic Church disregards the Bible completely in favor of whatever dogma they like
8db3c9 No.739662
>>739615
The pope thinks he knows better than Jesus.
2007bb No.739664
Hmm … "lead us not into temptation", meaning God would lead us into temptation. So God is a deceiver? That's very Muslim.
8d35d6 No.739668
Not to be like Francis here, but I feel like “keep us from temptation” makes the most sense in English, even though it’s not literal as >>739624 pointed out. really though the part that most people seem to have issues with is if the Lords Prayer says “give us this day our daily bread” or “give us today our bread for tomorrow”, and if it’s daily bread or supersubstantial bread.
aab8f2 No.739680
>Lead us not into temptation
>Abandon us not into temptation
I think it might be time to just learn the greek/Armaic version of this prayer.
64f71f No.739688
>>739617
>I only say the Lords Prayer in Latin
b7aec3 No.739693
>>739646
Not my fault English is a stupid language.
The prayer remains the same in Latin, Portuguese, Spanish etc.
4d307b No.739749
>>739642
Modernists seem to care.
d57a33 No.739753
>>739615
Why is English such a shitty language to translate the Bible from?
f36f02 No.739767
>>739753
I've heard English described by linguists and people who have it as their secondary language as a language held together by duct tape and prayer. It's just a shitty language in general.
797639 No.739771
>>739615
He's taking a proper translation and turning it into a mistranslation. It literally means "lead us not into temptation"
2199ac No.739792
>>739771
No it doesn't retard. God leads no one to temptation. That's an heresy.
But unfortunately it's the only way to translate it decently to English.
winnie the pooh burgers thinking their language its better than anyone's else.
Translating the bible to vernacular was mistake.
fc3587 No.739803
>>739767
> It's just a shitty language in general.
So stop using it.
e84e07 No.739804
>>739792
>"lead us not into temptation" means God leads to temptation
The retard is you and your 4th grade English skills
Read this sentence:
<Shoot me not in the face
Are you now a murderer by virtue of my request?
653162 No.739808
>>739617
>>739633
>>739634
>>739664
>>739668
>>739693
>>739753
>>739792
BREAKING NEWS: Papists say bible was wrong all along, pope is right, and absolutely nobody is surprised
58e1e7 No.739809
>>739767
Iirc that's pretty much what it is. Short version is that it's bastardized old English mixed with French, long version has pretty much every other European language haphazardly mixed in.
>>739803
Very constructive post.
9bff2a No.739823
>>739615
It’s always been screwed up. He’s just making it more friendly to CS Lewism. The literal translation is “Spare us from trial” or “Don’t let us be put to the test.”
797639 No.739828
>>739792
>No it doesn't retard. God leads no one to temptation. That's an heresy.
You’re right, God leads us not into temptation
>But unfortunately it's the only way to translate it decently to English.
It’s literally what the original Greek and Latin say. Do not bring us into temptation
https://carm.org/lead-us-not-into-temptation
>winnie the pooh burgers thinking their language its better than anyone's else.
Who are you quoting?
>Translating the bible to vernacular was mistake.
καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν
02bc53 No.739829
>>739804
Given that books like Job exist, it is very important to clarify the fact that God passively allows temptation, not actively allowing it. Yes, there are people with a 4th grade understanding out there, and some of them are 4th graders.
797639 No.739830
>>739823
The literal translation is “and [do] not lead us into temptation”
9bff2a No.739831
>>739830
You’re half right. Lead should be in there but temptation is more accurately translated trial or testing, with implications of it being bad or rough.
797639 No.739832
>>739830
Original Greek: καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν
καὶ: and
μὴ: not, to not, do not
εἰσενέγκῃς: to lead, to bring
ἡμᾶς: us
εἰς: into, in, to, at
πειρασμόν: temptation
653162 No.739834
797639 No.739835
>>739831
πειρασμόν is what Jesus resists in the desert
>Καὶ συντελέσας πάντα ‘’’πειρασμὸν’’’ ὁ διάβολος ἀπέστη ἀπ’ αὐτοῦ ἄχρι καιροῦ.
>And when the devil had ended all the ‘’’temptation,’’’ he departed from him for a season.
It’s true that word is sometimes translated as trial in certain English contexts, but Latin preserves the meaning of Luke 6:13
>Et ne nos inducas in tentationem
Tentationem: temptation
797639 No.739838
>>739835
Matthew 6:13, excuse me
2beb9b No.739840
>>739832
εἰσενέγκῃς isn't a noun it's the subjunctive second person singular aorist active form of the verb "εἰσφέρω" which means "I lead into, bring in, announce." In the form εἰσενέγκῃς it means "may you lead", with the added μὴ it becomes "may you not lead".
797639 No.739842
>>739840
I wasn’t claiming it was a noun, saying “to” is generally a way to distinguish a verb (i.e. to run, to jump, to lead)
4e0e41 No.739846
>>739842
Ok but if you're going to have it in its subjunctive second person singular aorist active form you might as well give the proper English translation. I know that sounds autistic but I am very autistic about my Greek.
797639 No.739847
>>739846
That’s fine, I’m no expert on language in general
But do you agree the full phrase is “lead us not into temptation”?
0d9acc No.739857
>>739847
I think it's odd considering the fact that εἰσφέρω is simply a conjunction of "εἰς" (into) and φέρω (bring, carry, lead). Every time this word is used in the NT and LXX it holds that sense. If it was abandon it would be ἐγκαταλείπω or maybe even ἐξέρχομαι (though that would be odd).
.
b116be No.739862
"And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen." - Matthew 6:13
Just use the KJV and your problems are solved. The Greek texts are uninspired anyway. Only the KJV is inspired.
797639 No.739865
>>739862
No need to hold the KJV over the Greek when they are in perfect accordance
b116be No.739867
>>739865
No the KJV is the only inspired book in the world.
64f71f No.739868
>>739862
>>739867
Based and welchpilled.
50e386 No.739869
>>739615
ET NE NOS INDUCAS IN TENTATIONEM
New translation is bullshit. I will never use it.
To be precise is a new meaning, not a new translation.
9231d0 No.739882
>>739847
The most literal translation I can come up with from the original Greek is this:
Our Father who is in the heavens,
let your name be holy.
Let your Kingdom come.
Let your will become [manifest],
as in heaven also [let it be] on the Earth.
Give to us our sufficient daily bread.
And forgive us our debts,
as also we forgive our debtors.
And may you not lead us into trial,
but deliver us from the evil one.
(Because yours is the Kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen)
Only those in brackets were not in the original Greek text and purely for effect in English I added; and of course the parentheses is the doxology which is missing in certain manuscripts.
8da551 No.739883
>>739882
>bread
Same word for bread as usual?
fb9a41 No.739885
>>739883
ἄρτος generally means bread. I know a minority of translations opt for "food" or "meal" from God, and it might be able to be translated like that, but in most contexts the word is used specifically for bread. Just think about how important bread was to 1st century Palestinian people, how important it was for their celebrations such as Passover and really just daily life as a whole. It was the main source of nutrition. It's what everybody ate. It was held a central place in worship of YHWH.
(Btw I am >>739882 >>739857 and >>739840 but I am not sure why my ID keeps changing.)
653162 No.739889
>>739882
>trial
It's still temptation
0ea3d9 No.739904
You guys do realize using greek is against the rules right? The only languages allowed on this board are english and latin. This is a Catholic board whether you like it or not. Don't like it? Have a ban!
3b576f No.739909
64f71f No.739911
>>739904
You are a larper if you actually go to a Latin mass.
9bff2a No.739916
>>739835
I think in this context it’s likely a trial that enemies try to ensnare you with, hence the “deliver us from evil” right after.
797639 No.739925
>>739882
The most literal translation I can come up with from the original Greek is this:
Our Father in heaven,
Reveal who you are.
Set the world right;
Do what’s best—
as above, so below.
Keep us alive with three square meals.
Keep us forgiven with you and forgiving others.
Keep us safe from ourselves and the Devil.
You’re in charge!
You can do anything you want!
You’re ablaze in beauty!
Yes. Yes. Yes.
dbe995 No.739932
>>739925
Anon this is awful.
797639 No.739935
>>739932
It’s as literal as it can be, don’t blame me that English is a crummy language
4c2df5 No.739941
>>739911
You're a larper if you dont
38639f No.739942
>>739925
>>739935
Its the best you can do friend or "the message" bible can do.
797639 No.739945
>>739942
I’m a Message onlyist
38639f No.739947
>>739945
I guess people who like KJV have to have someone to look down on.
fc3587 No.739952
>>739945
Nice. I'm a Pidgin Bible Onlyist!
64f71f No.739954
>>739941
What go you interested in it? Crusader Kings 2? Medieval 2?
4c2df5 No.739955
>>739954
Seeing a mass that wasnt celebrated like a birthday party for once
8da551 No.739956
>>739955
>Replying to a memer
Are you insecure? I know for fact that >>739954 is, but are you?
f4f93d No.739958
I would not accept this. I would have even accepted "time of trial" but not "abandon us"
f4f93d No.739961
>>739952
Den Yahweh give him one spesho message. He tell, “Elijah! How come you stay hea?!”
10Elijah tell, “I wen go all out fo you, Yahweh, Da God Ova All Da Armies! Cuz da Israel peopo, dey no like da deal you wen make wit dem. Dey wen broke down all da altar places fo make sacrifice fo you. Dey wen kill da guys dat talk fo you wit dea swords. An now, I da ony talka fo you dat still stay, an dey stay look fo me fo kill me too!”
11Yahweh tell, “Go outside da cave. Stand on top dis mountain, in front me, Yahweh.” Befo Yahweh pass by dea, get one strong wind dat make da stone come down from da mountain an broke da cliffs. But Yahweh, he no come wit da wind. Afta da wind, get eartquake, but Yahweh, he no come wit da eartquake. 12Afta da eartquake, get fire, but Yahweh, he no come wit da fire. An afta da fire, get one small noise dat almos no can hear, jalike somebody whispa. 13Wen Elijah hear dat, he pull his blanket ova his face. He go litto bit outside da cave.
Den one small voice tell him, “Elijah! How come you stay ova hea?!”
14Elijah tell, “I wen go all out fo you, Yahweh, Da God Ova All Da Armies! Cuz da Israel peopo, dey no like da deal you wen make wit dem. Dey wen broke down all da altar places fo make sacrifice fo you. Dey wen kill da guys dat talk fo you wit dea swords. An now, I da ony talka fo you dat still stay, an dey stay look fo me fo kill me too!”
15Yahweh tell Elijah, “Go back, da same way you wen come. From dea, go inside da boonies nea Damascus town. Wen you reach dea, put olive oil on top Haza`el head, fo show I stay pick him fo come king fo da Aram peopo. 16An put olive oil on top Jehu, Nimshi boy, fo show I wen pick him fo come king fo da North Israel peopo. An same ting fo Elisha, Shafat boy from Abel-Meholah town. Put olive oil on top his head fo show I wen pick him fo come one talka guy fo me, fo take ova yoa work. 17Haza`el goin kill plenny peopo wit his sword, an da ones he no kill, Jehu goin kill dem. An da ones Jehu no kill wit his sword, Elisha goin kill dem. 18But I still get 7,000 Israel guys dat neva go down on top dea knee in front da Ba`al god an neva kiss da Ba`al statue!”
f4f93d No.739966
>>739867
Joke: Autographa
Woke: Translate KJV back into Greek
64f71f No.739968
>>739956
Not insecure, just stating some facts.
f4f93d No.739970
Can anyone make heads or tails of this?
Upon announcing the study on the translation of the Pater Noster was concluded, a representative from the Episcopal Conference said: “The Bishops intend for the publication of the new edition to be an opportunity to help renew the ecclesiastic community."
“Liturgical reforms are just a starting point."
“The renewal shall include ordained ministers, as well as the believers."
“Developments like these are becoming increasingly crucial in the process of Christian initiation, in workshops and in proposals for the permanent training of the clergy.”
afcd7b No.739991
>>739615
>reason to not like and mistrust Francis #10458
797639 No.739997
>>739966
Vamvas translation: it’s the KJV translated into modern Greek
e4ba51 No.740001
>>739615
Firstly, what is archive.is or internetarchive
stop shilling your website
Secondly … what is this thread that attracts eleven posts in less than an hour?
>The Vatican under Pope Francis will soon be implementing a change to the Lord's Prayer, also known as the Pater Noster, switching out the line "lead us not into temptation" for the Francis-approved "abandon us not into temptation."
Uh-huh.
< #alwaysGoStraightToTheGreek
The phrase is:
< Καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν
… the operative word is the third: εἰσενέγκῃς (eisenenkēs)
Seems to me it's always translated as "brought" or "bring", in which case "lead" is closer than "abandon".
Is this a case of liberal theologians rewriting scripture again, OP?
That said, I do not disagree with this assessment:
>… arguing that it portrays God in a false light. "A father does not lead into temptation, a father helps you to get up immediately," the Pope said at the time.
But, how spoonfed do you need your congregation to be? They can't refer to everything else they know about God's goodness and infer this doesn't mean "don't tempt me, God" …
>catholics knowing things about God from one 15 minute homily about the Priest's car troubles this week which concludes with "don't be unkind lol"
Oooooh, I see the problem …
4c2df5 No.740008
ITT: people who use biblehub's greek interlinear pretending to be Biblical scholars
186b6a No.740029
>>740001
>Greek??!? On my /christian/?
Better delet this post before the mods ban you.
3b8001 No.740063
>>740008
My priest uses Biblehub interlinear.
29a24a No.740098
Should be "and bring us not into trialling".
The meaning of temptation has become scandalized in the current age and is now synonymous with seduction and enticement.
>>739680
Learned the Peshitta form some years ago. Here's what a transcription of what I presume might be a classical Syriac pronunciation slightly different from modern Assyrian pronunciation which pronounces softened /b/ (Bēṯ) as /w/ and sometimes monophthongizes the dipthong /aj/ to /e/ and /ɑw/ to /o/. Open back unrounded /ɑ/ is also dropped and pronounced like /a/ in the ipa but I didn't transcribe it here anyway.
Avún d’vashmáyā,
nethqādash shmāḥ.
Téthé malkúthāḥ,
néhwe sevyánāḥ,
aykánā d’vashmáyā,
āf bár`ā.
Hav lan láħmā d’sunqānan yāwmānā.
wa-shvúq lan ħāwbéyn,
aykánā dāf ħ’nán sh’váqn l’ħáyaveyn;
wa-la tá`lan l’nesyúnā,
éllā pássān men bíshā.
Métul d’dílāḥ y malkúthā
w’ ħáylā w’theshbúħtā
l’`ālam l`ālmin
Amín
Assyrian rendition
https://youtu.be/36GYBTzJyAU
The are slight differences between Old Syriac and the Peshitta. In the fifth petition the Old Syriac has a future tense if I'm not mistaken as "also we SHALL FORGIVE our debtors" while the Peshitta appears to have it in the perfect ("as we FORGAVE our debtors").
http://aramaicnt.org/galilean-aramaic/classes/the-aramaic-lords-prayer/week-04/the-old-syriac-lords-prayer/
>>739668
There are differences in the various inherited traditions. Old English had 'costnunge' (costnings) for 'temptation'. Some Latin translations speak about demitting debts as opposed to forgiving.
Jerome's did not believe "bread for to-morrow" to be legitimate since in his opinion it appeared to contradict later verse at 6:34 ("worry not for tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry for itself"). Nevertheless that appears to also be the interpretation in some Coptic manuscripts.
https://books.google.com/books?id=jgY2AQAAMAAJ&dq=editions%3Ak9d-5MfhuGIC&pg=PA86#v=onepage&q&f=false
29a24a No.740100
>>740098
>but I didn't transcribe it here anyway.
Looks like I did as ā.
815a75 No.740132
The Our Father is such a beautiful prayer to savor slowly and enjoy each piece in order. It is timeless and powerful, directly from Jesus.
5cf7fc No.740146
>>739615
The term "lead us not into temptation" asks God to take us away from what may tempt us. You are asking God to lead you away from temptation.
As for the implications of what Pope Francis wants, I find that it fits with the nature of Bible versions that try to re-word things just to avoid copyright. I don't believe it changes the meaning too much, but neither do I believe it should be implemented. No one should temper with the word of God.
cf7ab1 No.740153
>>739882
>>739925
>"Original" Greek
Posted by Aramaic Gang
02d3b8 No.740174
>>740146
>No one should temper with the word of God.
The English translation isn't the word of God. Hell not even the vulgate is.
6e93a5 No.740176
>>739808
>bible was wrong all along, pope is right, and absolutely nobody is surprised
You heard it here first folks, the Bible was not complete until its KJV translation 1200 or so years after the first Bible's compilation.
797639 No.740180
>>740176
Who are you quoting?
02d3b8 No.740187
>>740180
He is quoting this retard >>739808 it clearly shows he believes the true Bible is the English one, otherwise his statement would be even more nonsensical.
Warn me if anyone tries to change the Greek Bible.
797639 No.740191
>>740187
Actually the original Greek text says “lead us not into temptation,” the word abandon isn’t used at all. The KJV has nothing to do with this discussion, it’s just one of the many Bibles that accurately translates the Greek text of Matthew 6:13
>καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν
>et ne inducas nos in temptationem
>Und führe uns nicht in Versuchung
>ne nous induis pas en tentation
>Y no nos metas en tentación
>And lead us not into temptation
You won’t find a single respected Bible translation that renders this verse using the improper Francis wording. They are all in agreement with the Greek text: lead us not into temptation
02d3b8 No.740216
But in all other languages it can be transliterated to "do not let us fall into temptation".
Probably it's impossible to render this in English somehow.
02d3b8 No.740217
I mean, I think the real problem with the English is the word "lead" which may assume slight different meanings in each context.
797639 No.740221
>>740216
That’s not even what a transliteration is, a transliteration is just putting another language into English letters based on the sound. The transliteration of the original Greek is “kai mē eisenenkēs hēmas eis peirasmon”
If you meant literal translation, the literal translation is “and not lead us into temptation;” English word order gives us “and lead us not into temptation”
8d35d6 No.740228
>>739925
Nah I found an original uncorrupted manuscript from a Calvery Chapel’s bookstore’s back room:
God in heaven, you’re our Dad.
We respect everything you stand for. We want others to.
Please bring heaven on earth: people living life your way, like the angels do.
Please bring us what we need to keep going each day.
Please acquit is, as we cancel our grievances and throw them all away
Please pull us back from the edge of evil, as we’re falling or being thrown.
‘Cos you’re all that maters, you’re able to do it and you’re to take the credit.
You’re on you’re own.
It’s your throne.
Absolutely!
7dca78 No.740332
>>740221
Forgive my stupidity. I mean translation.
de350b No.741608
>>740146
> The term "lead us not into temptation" asks God to take us away from what may tempt us. You are asking God to lead you away from temptation.
Wow. Thanks anon, really cleared that up for me. Lord bless you