/christian/ - Christian Discussion and Fellowship

>>729485

Saved by the grace of God through faith (Ephesians 2-8-9, Romans, etc)

>>729490

>Everyone is eventually saved

Have to disagree with you there anon.

Revelations 20:15: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire . Verse 14 call this the second death, which is opposite to the eternal new heaven and new earth

>>729502

>soul sleep

What is this heresy about?

>>729504

I forget who but either my dad or probably some jewish conservative speaker told me what you call soul sleep was Christian doctrine. Of course, I eventually found out they were wrong (I think it was even because of this board too) and we have some kind of active spiritual vessel until the resurrection. I was once one of those skepdicks who laughed at anyone who believed in ghosts, but ever since I found the chans I've been becoming much more for lack of a better word superstitious.

At this point I'm in between B and C.

>>729508

>We don;t roam about the Earth at our deaths

I disagree with this. Though we aren't confined to Earth after death, the saints have early agency and the ability to make apparitions and the Orthodox have stories of even the damned appearing to ask for prayers. If you're a prot I understand why you might think differently. I used to think the same thing you do and I grew up in protestant US.

>>729485

In favor of it

F) salvation is the work of God not man for his purposes

D if you change "worship" to "believe in"

>"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. (Jn. 3:16 NAS)

>that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; (Rom. 10:9 NAS)

>and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household." (Acts 16:30-31 NAS)

>>729557

James 2 19 tho

>>729557

In the very same passage as John 3:16, Jesus also said "Amen, amen, I say to you, you must be born from above." This entails a lot more than simply belief. It's a dramatic change. A new birth, literally.

>>729564

works are a proof of the holy spirit after salvation, so absence of works demonstrates lack of salvation

>>729567

agreed, the term "believe" is not strictly knowledge

>>729498

I really do hope that God is gracious and save my family who are unbelievers, so a part of me really want that to be true

>>72950

>>729504

>>729508

I just read 1 Thessalonians and Paul called the dead "sleep", and also in 1 Samuel when Saul summoned Samuel from the dead Samuel said why did you disquieted me, which implied that he was in his sleep (quiet). But anyway my pastor believe that we're in heaven once we're dead. I'm just wondering what verses or what led you to believe it? Not an argument I just want to know your thoughts

>>729485

I go by believeing in Christ as God. That’s all to be saved (not sure about baptism tho. It’s a good idea but not sure if it’s required. Better safe than sorry.)

>>729582

>Better safe than sorry.)

I think the story of the Ethiopian and Phillip is pretty telling. In that short trip, Phillip had already told him enough about Jesus that the Ethiopian stopped the carriage and said "See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?" It was central to the Gospel for Phillip to even mention it.. or the other man to pick up on it that fast.

>>729586

Fair point

Ultimately, it is whoever God judges worthy. I have no right to make an assertion. My guess, from what little I've learned, is that it is dependent on your relationship with God. If you had never known God/Christ, at judgement you either accept or reject Him and move from there. If you know God/Christ, at judgement you are measured by how much you accomplished as a Christian. This meaning Baptism, Confession, Prayer, Fasts, Communion, etc. You're "on the hook". Having said that, we are saved only by faith; but faith without works is dead. It is Gods final judgement that matters, and you had better settle as much of your issues with Him as you can.

For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.

>>729508

>Dead people can't appear to living

>But demons can

Er, wrong. Deceased can appear to the living and interact with them, usually asking for prayers.

>>729485

d. I guess.

A and a bit of B. I'm Orthodox so it's not like I have a choice here anyway. All those who are not Orthodox go to Hell when they die, unless they sincerely seeked to join Orthodoxy (such as by professing faith in Orthodoxy before being martyred, or by dying as a catechumen).

The sacrament of the Eucharist is necessary for salvation, and only the Orthodox churches have it. Christians outside of Orthodoxy do have the sacrament of baptism but they don't have anything else.

Note that unbaptized children go to Hell too.

>>729485

>What is your position on salvation?

It's a good thing.

Your obsession with sacraments having saving power betray your allegiance, apostolicboi

>d: You just need to worship Jesus to be saved.

You reeeeeaaaaally think that's the sum-total of protestantism, or do you not actually give two fugs because this was a rigged survey from the start?

Or do you think I am incorrectly reading you?

B.

You need to be in the Church, however the institutional Church is the visible form of the Church in Heaven. So, many who are in the institutional Church are not saved because they are false believers and thus not part of the Church in Heaven.

At the same time some who are not part of the institutional Church, through no fault of their own, yet follow God in the best possible way given their limited knowledge of truth may become part of the Church in Heaven. This includes people with true faith in Jesus part of other denominations and wise pagans (but only after judgment, not immediately at death).

What >>729489 is trying to say I think is that we don’t follow the literal law of Moses, but rather understand what those laws were trying to enforce or prevent and try to live that out in faith.

Also c., since I’m GOARCH who has a soft spot for the more Anglo-Catholic parts of the Continuing Anglican movement and tradcat/Western Orthodoxy.

Whoever to whom God gives the grace of leading them to salvation, and who continually responds to that grace.

Plus this

>>729668

>>729721

>You also must be baptized so you can be born of the spirit and not the flesh; which is absolutely necessary as our lord has testified [John 3:5]

<3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

<4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?"

<5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

<6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

<7 "Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' (Jn. 3:3-7 NAS)

"born again" means two births

these two births are 1: water and 2: spirit

flesh is flesh and spirit is spirit

To be "born of water" is the physical birth

>>729764

no, when the earth was formed, first was formed water, and the holy spirit filled the air.

When the flood came below, the spirit was above during the times of noah

When moses led his people out of slavery, they passed through the red sea, and the holy spirit was above. This is what you are doing when you baptize someone. You are christening them with the water and the spirit.

>>729802

These factoids don't go to support your point

The parallelisms clearly necessitate that we're talking about both births, but either way you can not use this as a defeater argument against the fact that baptism is a work and works salvation is impossible Ephesians 2

>>729485

catholic here, for me it's a hard A.

i think most catholics won't even end up being saved, unfortunately. i rarely go to confession, but whenever i do there are barely any people there. i think the church is doing a grave disservice to people by being so lax about these things. it seems to me that most people think religion is just a background thing, like a hobby, rather than the meaning of our life, and i think you relly have to be thinking about God 24/7 and living in accordance with Him as much as you possibly can even with the smallest, most seemingly trivial things, and that's what i'm trying to work towards. if i died right now i doubt i'd go to heaven.

Probably C

But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

Romans 10:8‭-‬13 NKJV

You need to be an Orthodox Christian to be saved

>>729493

That is your interpretation. Origen interpret it differently. The sinner will die, but only the sin in him will die. He can't enter the kingdom of heaven as a sinner, so he have to die (that's a frequent metaphor for baptism…). Every creature is in the book of life since it has being. It's what is saved. But the thing that is not life (that have no being) will disapear, the death will be defeated as saint Paul say.

>1 cor 15:26 "The last enemy to be destroyed is death."

>1 cor 15:28"And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all."

>>729653

I don't think there is a biblical explicit basis for reincarnation. But for apocatastasis, fathers of the church claim there is. Reincarnation is thought by Origen.

>>729485

>Luke 12: 47-48

>The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

Ultimately other religions are a mystery, I can't imagine so numerous people being deceive by God's providence with religions that talk of God in truth, but for whatever reason, people who follow these religions for their salvation would not be praying God.

I'm definitly not in favor of a limitation of God's saving plan, since he wants all men to be saved.

> 1 Timothy 2:1-4 "I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth."

>>729485

A and B, with the caveat, that this can be accomplished in purgatory (for all those not catholic).

D

>>729485

have faith in Jesus Christ as the Messiah, son of God, God in flesh form, believe he died on the cross for the sins of the world and your sins, he was buried, and resurrected three days later, and you will be saved

Matthew 18:21-35 King James Version (KJV)

21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.

25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.

29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.

31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.

32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:

33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

>>741529

also this

Luke 7:36-50 King James Version (KJV)

36 And one of the Pharisees desired him that he would eat with him. And he went into the Pharisee's house, and sat down to meat.

37 And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment,

38 And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.

39 Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.

40 And Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on.

41 There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.

42 And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?

43 Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged.

44 And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.

45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.

46 My head with oil thou didst not anoint: but this woman hath anointed my feet with ointment.

47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

48 And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.

49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?

50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.