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For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
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The Lord is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the Lord is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

bb4774  No.717575

I'm currently looking, in my spare time, into the Jewish belief that Christianity is a form of idol-worship or, Avodah Zarah. I came across this interesting debate between Toviah Singer and Jim Cantelon. The following dialog takes place from about 22:40 in the related video.

>Moderator: You say you’re not threatened, that you’re not threatened by the Jew, right? By the identity of the Jew. And ask for like-treatment in a sense. Sincere question: Isn’t it in some sense threatening? I mean, you’re not threatened, because the Jew doesn’t ask anything, doesn’t ask that the christian believe, except for the Noachide laws in the Old Testament, in the same way that the Christian asks the Jew to believe in the new. But, Isn’t there, at least, a minimal threat merely in the rejection, right merely that the Jew merely stands opposed to the idea …That’s not a threat?

>Cantelon:

No, because most of the Gentile world rejects Jesus, too. I mean, the assumption that you’re either a Jew, a Christian or a Muslim, I mean that’s the assumption in the Middle East. But, from the Christian perspective, and Rabbi Novak was right there’s authentic Christians and there’s inauthentic. See, in the Christian world, you’re not Christian if you’re born to Christian parents. You’re an unbeliever. You’re belief neutral, if you will. And there’s a lot of gentiles out there who hate the god of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

>M:

it’s not a demographic point, though I’m asking at the level of teaching, Right. that the level of teaching, of Jewish teaching, Jesus is rejected, conceptually, on a conceptual basis, as Rabbi singer said, as idolatry. Isn’t that a threat? isn’t that the biggest conceivable insult, really? to say, I reject, we’re rejecting Christianity, not because we don’t feel like it. I mean you know there are a lot of people who are apathetic. who don’t want be christians, don’t want to be buddhists, don’t want to be anything. But for the Jew to stand up “I reject Christianity because of its idolatrous insistence. There’s some point in its teaching which is asking me to be an idolater, and I adhere to my god on this one point.” Isn’t that a threat?

I'm interested in pursuing this, further and learning more in general, just in case I have to debate this point someday. The moderator tries to get Cantelon to discuss the topic that Jewish teaching presents Christianity as idol-worship. Cantelon demures, and never addresses it. It seems strange to try to raise this point of tension that many outsiders to Torah and Talmud study would just not know (Avodah Zarah is a volume of the talmud).

9214b7  No.717835

They think because we worship Jesus it's idolatry.

And they'd be right, if Jesus wasn't YHYH.


bb4774  No.718130

>>717835

This is true. Jesus isn't just a God that we worship, he is the one God, three-in-one.

I what the moderator is doing in this video is a little bizarre, and this whole concept of Avodah Zarah has had me thinking about Evangelical support for Israel.

I mean, if you're truly an evangelical, wouldn't the best Israel be an Israel entirely converted to Christianity, or one where the gospel has been shared with all its inhabitants?

Is there a special reason we have the term Judeo-Christian? Muslims share some of the same history we do, but we don't say Muslim-Christian values, do we?

The moderator is provoking a little pre-emptively, and while Cantelon doesn't take the bait. But, what if he did? Well, the moderator is right! And why should the U.S. send 38 billion dollars to an ethnostate where the state religion considers you the lowest of the low, an idol-worshiper?

I don't think it's anti-semitic to point this out, it is in fact, the truth about their teachings of Christianity.

On NPR the other day, there was a Jew telling a story about what he did in the few days after Nov. 2016. He met with these German baptists and sang hymns with them. He joked "I killed their savior, and drink the blood of Christian babies". Both are no longer positions held by mainstream church authorities, so the joke has more relevance in a time gone by. But if he were to say, "I think you're idol-worshipers", that joke would have eternal relevance.

If this is their explanation for why your sharing the gospel with them won't work, shouldn't this be the first thing you think about, discuss and bring up when sharing the gospel with Jews? If it never comes up, you might fill in the blank with just about anything.

More to follow, and thanks for not deleting this thread.


e8dfe4  No.718139

>>718130

What amazes me in Jews in that they insist on the same old meme and call everyone they don't like idolaters. A quick search on Google would tell them what is the Holy Trinity and basically why are they winnie the pooh retarded.

I don't like Muslims and I don't say they are idolaters. They believe in one God, although Allah is the devil larping as God.

You can't be antisemitic, but you can be anti Christian.

And another funny thing. Every OT writer was a semite, Matthew, John, Peter, Paul, Jude, James and Jesus Himself were semites. So they hated themselves?

Tldr: winnie the pooh Jews.


e12eee  No.718208

File: 77288ce4816d570⋯.png (279.21 KB, 1255x1738, 1255:1738, keep in mind.png)

>>717575

There's evidence in support of the claim that the basis for this accusation of idolatry was entirely a retcon manufactured by the Jewish leadership for the sole purpose of posing a legal threat to early Jewish converts to Christianity:

"In my dissertation (UW-Madison, 2004) I argued that Segal’s instincts were correct. My own work bridges the gap between his book and the Hebrew Bible understood in its Canaanite religious context. I suggest that the “original model” for the two powers idea was the role of the vice-regent of the divine council. The paradigm of a high sovereign God (El) who rules heaven and earth through the agency of a second, appointed god (Baal) became part of Israelite religion, albeit with some modification. For the orthodox Israelite, Yahweh was both sovereign and vice regent—occupying both “slots” as it were at the head of the divine council. The binitarian portrayal of Yahweh in the Hebrew Bible was motivated by this belief. The ancient Israelite knew two Yahwehs—one invisible, a spirit, the other visible, often in human form. The two Yahwehs at times appear together in the text, at times being distinguished, at other times not.

Early Judaism understood this portrayal and its rationale. There was no sense of a violation of monotheism since either figure was indeed Yahweh. There was no second distinct god running the affairs of the cosmos. During the Second Temple period, Jewish theologians and writers speculated on an identity for the second Yahweh. Guesses ranged from divinized humans from the stories of the Hebrew Bible to exalted angels. These speculations were not considered unorthodox. That acceptance changed when certain Jews, the early Christians, connected Jesus with this orthodox Jewish idea. This explains why these Jews, the first converts to following Jesus the Christ, could simultaneously worship the God of Israel and Jesus, and yet refuse to acknowledge any other god. Jesus was the incarnate second Yahweh. In response, as Segal’s work demonstrated, Judaism pronounced the two powers teaching a heresy sometime in the second century A.D."

http://drmsh.com/the-naked-bible/two-powers-in-heaven/


bf2e62  No.718238

>>718208

interdasting. Where can I find the full article? that seems to be just an introduction


e12eee  No.718245

>>718238

No idea. There is a link to some video presentation at the very bottom of the page, however, though I've never watched it, and citations to many works, so you should be able to hit upon something. A key passage to keep in mind is Daniel 9 and its Son of Man figure who receives worship. There are others, but that one is highly significant.


bf2e62  No.718249

>>718245

yes, im watching the video now, it's quite interesting, and i've added a few books to my wishlist


e12eee  No.718334

>>718245

>Daniel 9 and its Son of Man

I dun goofed. Sorry, OP. I meant Daniel 7.


bb4774  No.718441

>>718208

Brilliant. I’m in the process of Checking this.

In the meantime, I’ve been watching rabbinical lectures on avodah Zara online. I believe this is critical to spreading the gospel to the Jewish people.


bb4774  No.719055

>>718249

The video is great. It lays out verse after verse where God is represented by a human form, and in some cases where God the invisible appears side by side with God the man. I will see if I can collect all those verses here when I get a minute.


bb4774  No.719406

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

>>717575

The Michael Heiser video


bf2e62  No.724478

bump for interest




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