Romans 9

Email
Comment *
File	Select/drop/paste files here
Password	(Randomized for file and post deletion; you may also set your own.)
* = required field	[▶ Show post options & limits] Confused? See the FAQ.

Embed	(replaces files and can be used instead)
Options	Do not bump (you can also write sage in the email field) Spoiler images (this replaces the thumbnails of your images with question marks)
Allowed file types:jpg, jpeg, gif, png, webm, mp4, pdf Max filesize is 16 MB. Max image dimensions are 15000 x 15000. You may upload 5 per post.

Romans 9 Christanon 10/17/18 (Wed) 23:10:45 668ebb No.715746

What has been the historical interpretation of Romans 9? I've heard many Calvinists use Romans 9 to prove their position but I wanted to know how the church fathers tackled these verses. I'm more inclined towards the Calvinists interpretation but would also like to know the churches teaching prior to Calvinism and the reformation as a whole.

Christanon 10/18/18 (Thu) 00:32:55 0d17c9 No.715770

YouTube embed. Click thumbnail to play.

I don't know of the "historical" position, but I can at the very least point you to a non-Calvinist one. It's a bit of a long one lol, but I would say this makes a lot of sense and tries to take into account the historical context of what Paul would be talking about.

Christanon 10/18/18 (Thu) 01:37:21 668ebb No.715786

>>715770

I know who that guy is. He had a debate with James White on Romans 9 and I wasn't all too happy with his explanation of the chapter. Or even his entire debate.

Christanon 10/18/18 (Thu) 01:46:56 57b039 No.715789

>>715746

Idk too much about the Calvinists but I can't think of a non-deterministic way to read it if that's what you're looking for. I think our definition of free will has been perverted because the jewish non-deterministic free will just doesn't agree with scripture.

Christanon 10/18/18 (Thu) 02:02:11 db1d34 No.715793

>>715746

Romans 9 isn't a Calvinist text - it's about the relationship between Israel and the gentiles. There are better places you can go like Romans 8.

Christanon 10/18/18 (Thu) 02:38:27 e9e943 No.715800

>>715793

>it's about the relationship between Israel and the gentiles

It's about the relationship between nations and God

Christanon 10/18/18 (Thu) 02:56:26 412f2d No.715802

Foreknowledge of free will

God's sovereign predestination to life

The closest to a Calvinist interpretation is really just Augustinian single predestination. Because if you look at many commentaries on it today, they do agree that God sincerely wants the vessels of wrath to repent, which is essentially why God is patient with them. So it is not as Calvinistic as it seems

Christanon 10/18/18 (Thu) 03:14:32 db1d34 No.715803

>>715800

Yeah that's fair but historical, obviously Israel has to be in there

Christanon 10/18/18 (Thu) 04:17:47 72ab08 No.715819

This is a good site for this sort of thing, although the webmaster has apparently ruined the layout recently.

https://sites.google.com/site/aquinasstudybible/home/roman

For Romans, it looks like there are full English commentaries by John Chrysostom, Theodoret and Thomas Aquinas.

Christanon 10/18/18 (Thu) 06:05:18 668ebb No.715835

I think most people in this thread don't know what I asked for. I'm looking for quotes from the early church fathers and their exegesis of this text to see how they interpreted it. I wanna see how traditionally it has been understood prior to Calvinism. I've heard Augustine's interpretation but that's pretty much it.

Christanon 10/19/18 (Fri) 00:40:23 0d17c9 No.716126

>>715786

I haven't watched that debate, though he mentions the debate in passing in some of his videos. It seems like the guy is not a great debater by his own admission. I haven't seen anything wrong with what he says (but I'm kinda new to this lol). Though I'm curious, what do you not like about his Romans 9 interpretation?

Christanon 10/19/18 (Fri) 00:49:10 222f2a No.716129

>>715835

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/210216.htm

St. John Chrysostom's homily on the chapter.